Absolute Predestination

[EmSw]

Jesus tells us to ask not to be led into temptation. You added the rest claiming I said more, which I didn't.

Come on Dave, you know better than that. Please don't lie.

'I said -
I thought the prayer was 'lead us not into temptation'.

You replied -
That's why we pray it. Those who do not are fed to the devil.'

You said this in post #341. Then later in post #347, 'Let scripture settle it.'

Then when I asked to show scripture to 'settle' what you said, you failed to provide any.

 

[Dave L]

Come on Dave, you know better than that. Please don't lie.

'I said -
I thought the prayer was 'lead us not into temptation'.

You replied -
That's why we pray it. Those who do not are fed to the devil.'

You said this in post #341. Then later in post #347, 'Let scripture settle it.'

Then when I asked to show scripture to 'settle' what you said, you failed to provide any.

Show the direct quote where I said what you claim.

 

[EmSw]

Show the direct quote where I said what you claim.

I gave you the post number. Look it up yourself. Don't be deceitful.

 

[Dave L]

I gave you the post number. Look it up yourself. Don't be deceitful.

re post it so we're sure.

 

[Dave L]

Come on Dave, you know better than that. Please don't lie.

'I said -
I thought the prayer was 'lead us not into temptation'.

You replied -
That's why we pray it. Those who do not are fed to the devil.'

You said this in post #341. Then later in post #347, 'Let scripture settle it.'

Then when I asked to show scripture to 'settle' what you said, you failed to provide any.

I found the post. Here it is: "That's why we pray it. Those who do not are fed to the devil."
“Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.” (1 Timothy 1:20)

 

[EmSw]

re post it so we're sure.

I posted it above.

 

[Dave L]

I posted it above.

Found it and replied in #445

 

[EmSw]

I found the post. Here it is: "That's why we pray it. Those who do not are fed to the devil."
“Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.” (1 Timothy 1:20)

So, do you deny you said those who do not pray 'lead us not into temptation' are fed to the devil?

 

[EmSw]

I found the post. Here it is: "That's why we pray it. Those who do not are fed to the devil."
“Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.” (1 Timothy 1:20)

First of all, Hymenaeus and Alexander were not delivered to Satan for not praying 'lead us not into temptation'. If you can read, it was for blaspheming, not a lack of prayer.

If you believe what you preach, could I deliver you to Satan, that you may learn to pray the Lord's prayer?

 

[Dave L]

First of all, Hymenaeus and Alexander were not delivered to Satan for not praying 'lead us not into temptation'. If you can read, it was for blaspheming, not a lack of prayer.

If you believe what you preach, could I deliver you to Satan, that you may learn to pray the Lord's prayer?

Do you believe not being led into temptation is in your power?

 

[EmSw]

Do you believe not being led into temptation is in your power?

As I showed you before, here is what James says -

James 1:14
But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

Is lusting in your power? Or, do you lust non-stop?

 

[Dave L]

So, do you deny you said those who do not pray 'lead us not into temptation' are fed to the devil?

No. But to clarify my position, those who trust in themselves for salvation are already lost.

 

[Dave L]

As I showed you before, here is what James says -

James 1:14
But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

Is lusting in your power? Or, do you lust non-stop?

“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:9–10)

 

[YeshuaFan]

You need to go back to the OT, and actually read what it says.

Now those who desire to keep the Pharisee's law, which Paul was familiar with, then no, no one will be justified keeping their law.

But God's true law is quite different. The law which you should be familiar with if God has written it upon your heart.

Proverbs 7:2
Keep my commandments, and live; and my law as the apple of thine eye.

Ezekiel 18:21
But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

And just in case you want to say the law was abolished or such some thing, I will remind you of Jehovah's actual words.

Deuteronomy 29:29
The secret things belong unto the Lord our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

2 Kings 17:37
And the statutes, and the ordinances, and the law, and the commandment, which he wrote for you, ye shall observe to do for evermore; and ye shall not fear other gods.

Psalm 119:44
So shall I keep thy law continually for ever and ever.

Isaiah 24:5
The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.

Surely you know what 'forever, evermore, ever and ever, and everlasting' mean.

So now, do you believe Jesus and His words or do you not?

Matthew 19:17
...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Jeremiah spoke of that time when the Law of God would be written upon hearts, and that happens only once the person received jesus as lord and became born again!

 

[YeshuaFan]

Do you actually know what the Bible says? Or, are you making this stuff up?

We are never told to reach a 'sinless perfection state'. However, as far as your 'some evil' is concerned, have you read these verses?

Matthew 6:13
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

Matthew 6:23
But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

Matthew 7:17
Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

Matthew 12:34
O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

Matthew 24:48
But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;

Mark 7
21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

Luke 6:45
A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.

John 3
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

John 5:29
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Romans 2:9
Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

Romans 12:9
Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.

Romans 12:21
Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

1 Thessalonians 5:22
Abstain from all appearance of evil.

2 Timothy 3:13
But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

Hebrews 3:12
Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

1 Peter 2:1
Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,

1 Peter 3:11
Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it.

1 Peter 3:12
For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil.

3 John 1:11
Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.

So now YeshuaFan, do you believe evil people will enter heaven? Do you see what John wrote about the evil? HE THAT DOETH EVIL HATH NOT SEEN GOD!!! This is as plain as the nose on your face.

NT theology would be that all have sinned and fallen short of glory of God, all have evil and wicked hearts before saved, but the blood of Jesus cleanses from all sins, so all of us in heaven are there due to what Jesus did, NOTHING to do with what we did!

 

[EmSw]

Jeremiah spoke of that time when the Law of God would be written upon hearts, and that happens only once the person received jesus as lord and became born again!

As I figured, you failed to tell us what 'forever', 'evermore', and 'everlasting' mean.

Now tell us why His law is written upon a person's heart. Do you have any idea? How can it be written on a heart, when it is done away with?

 

[EmSw]

NT theology would be that all have sinned and fallen short of glory of God,...

That came from the OT.

...all have evil and wicked hearts before saved, but the blood of Jesus cleanses from all sins, so all of us in heaven are there due to what Jesus did, NOTHING to do with what we did!

Nothing of what you did, huh? So you are a universalist.

 

[JLB777]

“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:9–10)

That does not answer my question


Here it s your statement -

Jesus says we are slaves of sin, unless born again, and then we are his slaves.

The scripture you quoted doesn’t even mention the word slave.


The Bible says our Master is the one we obey.


Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?
Romans 6:16



JLB

 

[Dave L]

That does not answer my question


Here it s your statement -





The scripture you quoted doesn’t even mention the word slave.


The Bible says our Master is the one we obey.


Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?
Romans 6:16



JLB

“Paul, a slave of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God,” (Romans 1:1)

“For the one who is called in the Lord while a slave is the Lord’s freedperson. Likewise the one who is called while free is a slave of Christ.” (1 Corinthians 7:22)

“For am I now making an appeal to people or to God? Or am I seeking to please people? If I were still trying to please people, I would not be a slave of Christ.” (Galatians 1:10)

“Epaphras, who is one of you, greets you, a slave of Christ always struggling on behalf of you in his prayers, that you may stand mature and fully assured in all the will of God.” (Colossians 4:12)

----------

“and they will come to their senses and escape the devil’s trap where they are held captive to do his will.” (2 Timothy 2:26)

“Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.” (1 Timothy 3:7)

etc.

 

[ClementofA]

The Bible verses may provide a basis for believing in free will but not what you insist upon and have identified as "Libertarian" free will .

Why is that? Define "free will" as you use it above. Is it the Calvinist definition which really means "totally depraved will", "will in 100% slavery to sin", "will that must obey its sinful nature", "will that is free in the sense of free to sin & do nothing but sin"? A will that can only sin is not free to not sin. It is a puppet of sin which God is responsible for. Therefore to send such people to an endless hell for what they are not responsible for is unjust & makes God a sadistic monster.