Abortion: The Real Reason Why States are Passing Laws Against It

[St_Worm2]

St_Worm2 said: ↑
Hi Zephcom, a "religious dogma" telling us that it's wrong to intentionally kill an innocent human being cannot be, "engraved in American law", at this point in time, because it has been part of American law since this country was founded.

Who told you this? Abortion was never regulated until the latter half of the nineteenth century and then only because the midwives were taking business from male doctors.

Hi Pommer, I think I may have not been as clear as I could have been. "Life" is described as an unalienable right in the U.S. Declaration of Independence. Therefore, from the very beginning of our nation, our laws have declared that it is wrong to intentionally kill an innocent human being (so we really have no need of an additional law, religious or otherwise, to tell us what we already know, what we already hold to be self-evident truth).

--David
p.s. - if you'd like to add a "religious dogma" in there anyway, I think this one should do the trick

Exodus 20
13 Thou shalt not kill.
.​

 

[Belk]

Oh sure! As if I can't live in peace unless I can control every woman's sexuality.
The very idea doesn't even make sense. It's more of a stall tactic just to put pro-lifers on the defensive.

The poster I responded to literally espoused this. Feel free to take it up with him.

 

[Belk]

One reason is because places like Planned "Parenthood" are good at portraying a woman's unborn baby as less than human--as just some sort of unwanted growth that needs to be removed to improve the woman's life. Makes the whole abortion process seem so simple, so harmless, and without consequence.

I do not find your claims of how Planned Parenthood portrays things credible.

 

[Belk]

of course...

Thank you. I would encourage you to speak up so your voice helps drown out those who do not support this.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I see this as shaky ground for a nation which is supposed to have a secular government and not a government based on a single religion. Should science provide evidence that mass of cells unable to survive on its own is a human being then lawmakers would have a reason to make that determination.

I offer an example from the other end of human life. Once an actual born human reaches the point in which it no longer is able to live, we no longer consider the mass of cells as a human being. There is no logical reason to consider a mass of cells unable to live on its own as a human being if that same mass of cells is not considered a human being when it ceases to live.

Our Constitution recognizes this transition from not living on its own to living on its own as the point when the nation confers citizenship on the human being. And that transition at the other end of life is when recognize the end of human life.

There really is not any justification...other than religious belief...for marking conception as the beginning of human life. And even those religious people show the falseness of their belief when they celebrate the day of birth as the marker for a human's life.

I see this as shaky ground for a nation which is supposed to have a secular government and not a government based on a single religion. Should science provide evidence that mass of cells unable to survive on its own is a human being then lawmakers would have a reason to make that determination.

This is making science the one 'religion' and the idea that we are not human if we need care is pretty shocking. Babies born don't survive if abandoned.

There is no logical reason to consider a mass of cells unable to live on its own as a human being if that same mass of cells is not considered a human being when it ceases to live.

Again incapacitated persons that require care are no less human. Applying this 'logic' we would leave the wounded on the battlefield.

Our Constitution recognizes this transition from not living on its own to living on its own as the point when the nation confers citizenship on the human being. And that transition at the other end of life is when recognize the end of human life.

This is a seriously flawed assertion. If a women suffers violence and looses a wanted child, the perpetrator should be charged with murder.

There really is not any justification...other than religious belief...for marking conception as the beginning of human life. And even those religious people show the falseness of their belief when they celebrate the day of birth as the marker for a human's life.

Are you serious?
To celebrate birth does not mean that the child is not human before birth.
To insist that conception be the celebrated marker is absurd as it cant accurately be determined.
It is natural to celebrate a gift when it is in ones hands - not before it is given.

 

[Aldebaran]

I do not find your claims of how Planned Parenthood portrays things credible.

You don't have to. Read their mission statement for yourself. Lots of flowery words that don't truly convey what they do: What is Planned Parenthood's Mission Statement?

"Leading the Reproductive Health and Rights Movement
On campuses and online, in statehouses and courts, in local communities, and in the media, Planned Parenthood is an outspoken , passionate advocate for policies that enable all people to access comprehensive reproductive and sexual health care, education, and information. Whether we’re talking to members of Congress, parents, or faith leaders, or arguing cases before the U.S. Supreme Court — we fight for commonsense policies that respect your right to make empowered, informed decisions about health, sex, and family planning.

Planned Parenthood has 10 million activists, supporters, and donors working to protect access to health care and fundamental reproductive rights nationwide."

 

[zephcom]

Im glad my mother didnt abort me. Also i dont believe in a theocracy.

I suspect that if she had, you would never known.

If what I suspect is true you would have just had a different mother. I think that the 'spark of spirit' which sets humans apart from mere animals...that Divine difference...isn't put in place until birth. Perhaps a few hours before. And if that fetus doesn't survive to that point, that Divine difference is put in one which did survive.

From a mechanical point of view, it makes no sense at all that the spark of human life will be placed in a body before that body is even a body.

I understand that this is a 'deeply held belief' by some. And I would never support a law which mandated an abortion for all in whatever circumstance the law was written to fix because I respect that some people think it amounts to killing a human life. I also think it is wrong to use laws to force someone else's 'deep held belief' onto everyone.

Absent of any scientific evidence that human life begins before birth, this is really just an attempt to make religious dogma part of the law. And the American Constitution prohibits doing that.

 

[Aldebaran]

From a mechanical point of view, it makes no sense at all that the spark of human life will be placed in a body before that body is even a body.

Yet even scientific evidence indicates that it indeed does happen: Babies start learning before they are even born

 

[St_Worm2]

If a women suffers violence and looses a wanted child, the perpetrator should be charged with murder.

That's right, and that is exactly what we do.

Laci Denise Peterson (née Rocha; May 4, 1975 – December 24, 2002) was an American woman who was the subject of a highly publicized murder case after she disappeared while eight months pregnant with her first child. She was reportedly last seen alive on December 24, 2002. Her husband, Scott Peterson, was later convicted of murder in the first degree for her death, and in the second degree for the death of their prenatal son, Conner. Peterson is currently on death row at San Quentin State Prison.​

Scott is on death row because he was convicted of double-homicide, for the 1st degree murders of both his wife and their unborn son.

--David

 

[Belk]

You don't have to. Read their mission statement for yourself. Lots of flowery words that don't truly convey what they do: What is Planned Parenthood's Mission Statement?

"Leading the Reproductive Health and Rights Movement
On campuses and online, in statehouses and courts, in local communities, and in the media, Planned Parenthood is an outspoken , passionate advocate for policies that enable all people to access comprehensive reproductive and sexual health care, education, and information. Whether we’re talking to members of Congress, parents, or faith leaders, or arguing cases before the U.S. Supreme Court — we fight for commonsense policies that respect your right to make empowered, informed decisions about health, sex, and family planning.

Planned Parenthood has 10 million activists, supporters, and donors working to protect access to health care and fundamental reproductive rights nationwide."

I fail to see how this makes your claims more credible.

 

[Aldebaran]

I fail to see how this makes your claims more credible.

Their own words back up my claim.

 

[Belk]

Their own words back up my claim.

Can you explain how please?

 

[Aldebaran]

Can you explain how please?

If you need an even better example from them, here ya go:
Should I Get An Abortion? | Information to Help You Decide

They say that it's so common and without any moral consequence: "Abortion is very common, and people have abortions for many different reasons. Only you know what’s best for you, but good information and support can really help you make the decision that is best for your own health and well-being."

They make it sound as if the most trivial reasons for wanting an abortion are valid:
"Everyone has their own unique and valid reasons for having an abortion. Some of the many different reasons people decide to end a pregnancy include:

• They want to be the best parent possible to the kids they already have.
• They’re not ready to be a parent yet.
• It’s not a good time in their life to have a baby.
• They want to finish school, focus on work, or achieve other goals before having a baby.
• They’re not in a relationship with someone they want to have a baby with.
• They’re in an abusive relationship or were sexually assaulted.
• The pregnancy is dangerous or bad for their health.
• The fetus won’t survive the pregnancy or will suffer after birth.
• They just don’t want to be a parent.

If you need more examples, just read their own website that I already provided you a link to.

 

[tall73]

Yes. It is amazing how many men are certain they should control other peoples sex lives instead of their own. If only they had as much concern for the 1 in 5 women who will be raped in their lifetime.

Rape is already illegal.

 

[Carl Emerson]

That's right, and that is exactly what we do.

Laci Denise Peterson (née Rocha; May 4, 1975 – December 24, 2002) was an American woman who was the subject of a highly publicized murder case after she disappeared while eight months pregnant with her first child. She was reportedly last seen alive on December 24, 2002. Her husband, Scott Peterson, was later convicted of murder in the first degree for her death, and in the second degree for the death of their prenatal son, Conner. Peterson is currently on death row at San Quentin State Prison.​

Scott is on death row because he was convicted of double-homicide, for the 1st degree murders of both his wife and their unborn son.

--David

Thanks for that David, so then the law contradicts itself - an unwanted child is not human, and a wanted child is human !!! ???

 

[jayem]

Nice try bro, but I say it is an unfortunate part of the procedure. The goal of it is trying to save both but unfortunately the unborn dies. It is different from an abortion where the goal is to kill the unborn.

I worked in health care and saw 2 of these cases firsthand. They are very difficult. The goal in both was solely to save the mother. So in what other circumstance would knowingly killing an innocent child in order to benefit the mother's health be even a passing consideration?

 

[zephcom]

St_Worm2 said: ↑
Hi Zephcom, a "religious dogma" telling us that it's wrong to intentionally kill an innocent human being cannot be, "engraved in American law", at this point in time, because it has been part of American law since this country was founded.

Hi Pommer, I think I may have not been as clear as I could have been. "Life" is described as an unalienable right in the U.S. Declaration of Independence. Therefore, from the very beginning of our nation, our laws have declared that it is wrong to intentionally kill an innocent human being (so we really have no need of an additional law, religious or otherwise, to tell us what we already know, what we already hold to be self-evident truth).

--David
p.s. - if you'd like to add a "religious dogma" in there anyway, I think this one should do the trick

Exodus 20
13 Thou shalt not kill.
.​

Our Constitution states that being BORN in America confers citizenship. That seems to be only place where where our guiding documents attempts to define when life actually starts. You simply assume that your belief defines the beginning of human life and wrap yourself in the flag to pretend the nation supports you.

And, in fact, the primary guiding document...The Constitution, seems pretty clear that life begins at birth and not conception.

 

[Belk]

If you need an even better example from them, here ya go:
Should I Get An Abortion? | Information to Help You Decide

They say that it's so common and without any moral consequence: "Abortion is very common, and people have abortions for many different reasons. Only you know what’s best for you, but good information and support can really help you make the decision that is best for your own health and well-being."

They make it sound as if the most trivial reasons for wanting an abortion are valid:
"Everyone has their own unique and valid reasons for having an abortion. Some of the many different reasons people decide to end a pregnancy include:

• They want to be the best parent possible to the kids they already have.
• They’re not ready to be a parent yet.
• It’s not a good time in their life to have a baby.
• They want to finish school, focus on work, or achieve other goals before having a baby.
• They’re not in a relationship with someone they want to have a baby with.
• They’re in an abusive relationship or were sexually assaulted.
• The pregnancy is dangerous or bad for their health.
• The fetus won’t survive the pregnancy or will suffer after birth.
• They just don’t want to be a parent.

If you need more examples, just read their own website that I already provided you a link to.

I see. If I am understanding this correctly you are castigating them for not attaching the same moral significance to abortion that you do?

 

[Belk]

Rape is already illegal.

I think perhaps you miss the thrust of my point. Rape happens a lot, to a lot of women. It is not just a few men whom are committing these rapes. It is another form of control of sexuality.

 

[Aldebaran]

I see. If I am understanding this correctly you are castigating them for not attaching the same moral significance to abortion that you do?

What I'm doing is following up on the question you asked back in post #17 where you asked:

So you are on board with the pastors suggestion of working on the underlying reasons women choose abortion rather then trying to outlaw it?

I've been showing you how PP promotes (and profits from) abortion without regard to what's really involved.