Abortion Discussion

[Archivist]

My dictionary defines murder as the intentional killing of an innocent human being. When, according to your opinion does the unborn become a human being?

What dictionary are you using? I have never seen the word "innocent" used in the definition.

A fetus is human. It is not, however, a human life.

As to my personal opinion, I follow the Jewish view which is that it begins with the first breath. You are, of course, welcome to your own opinion.

 

[Julie.S]

This is a common argument brought up by those who favour abortion so one has to ask if you knew someone threatening suicide you would say "it's your life so it is no business of mine."

There isn't any difference between suicide and having an abortion because the abortion will definitely end the life of the baby and may end the life of the mother or cause trauma and grief that can last for 20 years. With suicide you die, with abortion you could die emotionally and mentally and have trauma and grief for year after year after year after year because you know that you had your baby killed.

I spent half a night once talking someone out of suicide have you?

It may be a common argument but is jumping to conclusions that people who use it favor abortion a good thing?

 

[Julie.S]

So basically God has no say and His word matters little to you when it comes to what is right or wrong? Color me confused if that is what you're saying.

I also have an interest in psychology, philosophy, ethics, and history... I also read my Bible daily and try to understand why God promotes what He promotes and prohibits what he does. I have found that there seem to be two things at work in the biblical view of right and wrong.

1 Respect for Persons, as in respect for each individual person and respect for the sacredness of life itself
2 Whatever does the most good and the least harm, including spiritual good and harm

That's based on my own research and life experience so take what you will but I don't see how a Christian can completely disregard the Word of God on the subject of what does and doesn't constitute moral conduct

I don't disregard God and I don't remember ever saying that directly.

 

[Nic Samojluk]

In the US? That's easy... The law from the "unelected justices."

Our Pledge of Allegiance contains the following phrase which negates what you stated:

“Under God”

This means that Roe v Wade is null and void under the rulership of God. Your effort to get God out of our nation is futile.

 

[AirPo]

If you were the victim of rape, I feel sorry for you. I hope you did not get pregnant.

Afraid to answer the question?

 

[Nic Samojluk]

First you must show that a baby is a person to make this claim.

Personhood is an invention of those enamored with the killing of innocent human beings. Before the Civil War, personhood was used to justify slavery. It was also used to deny women the right to vote on elections.

 

[AirPo]

Our Pledge of Allegiance contains the following phrase which negates what you stated:

“Under God”

This means that Roe v Wade is null and void under the rulership of God. Your effort to get God out of our nation is futile.

The pledge of Allegiance is not law. It is not relevant to Roe v Wade. Your interpretation of the rulership of God is not relevant to Roe v Wade.

 

[Julie.S]

Frankly it does matter.

Jesus said:

Matthew 6:24 New King James Version (NKJV)
24 “No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other.

Thanks for saying it in bold and red it looks kind of like yelling I guess.

Look we have our opinions I could be saying a lot more but I'm controlling myself right now.

I don't use the King James Version either and that's for a reason to.

Now good day.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Personhood is an invention of those enamored with the killing of innocent human beings. Before the Civil War, personhood was used to justify slavery. It was also used to deny women the right to vote on elections.

No, it is merely an answer to a question. Some people may have abuse that in the past. The problem is that you can't support your claims and so you use poor arguments. The Bible is not clear on when the "soul", if such a thing even exists, enters the body.

You see Nic your problem is that if you can't tell when someone is a person or a human being, or however you want to phrase it, then you have no business in telling others what they can do with their body.

But since you are so heavily against the idea of abortion I assume that you are for the free distribution of birth control to anyone of any age that requests it, is that right?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Our Pledge of Allegiance contains the following phrase which negates what you stated:

“Under God”

This means that Roe v Wade is null and void under the rulership of God. Your effort to get God out of our nation is futile.

Don't be silly. The Pledge of Allegiance has no moral or legal authority.

 

[AirPo]

What dictionary are you using? I have never seen the word "innocent" used in the definition.

Thanks, I missed that nuance. I guess Jimma Hoffa wasn't murdered.

 

[Nic Samojluk]

Where in the Bible does it say abortion is murder?

In Jeremiah 7, in Exodus 20:13, and in many other places:

“‘Hear the word of the Lord, all you people of Judah who come through these gates to worship the Lord. 3This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says: Reform your ways and your actions, and I will let you live in this place. 4Do not trust in deceptive words and say, “This is the temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord!” 5If you really change your ways and your actions and deal with each other justly,

6if you do not oppress the foreigner, the fatherless or the widow and do not shed innocent blood in this place, and if you do not follow other gods to your own harm,

[Can you perform an abortion without shedding human blood?]

7then I will let you live in this place, in the land I gave your ancestors for ever and ever. 8But look, you are trusting in deceptive words that are worthless.

9“ ‘Will you steal and murder, commit adultery and perjury,a burn incense to Baal and follow other gods you have not known, 10and then come and stand before me in this house, which bears my Name, and say, “We are safe”—safe to do all these detestable things? 11Has this house, which bears my Name, become a den of robbers to you?

31They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the fire—something I did not command, nor did it enter my mind.

[In the Old Testament unwanted children were burned with fire in honor of the pagan god Moloch. Today we burn unborn babies with chemicals—saline abortion. There have been cases of children who survived this method of poisoning and were scarred for life.]

 

[Nic Samojluk]

It should be apparent from this to even you that the aborted fetus is not considered a living human being since the resulting punishment for the abortion is a fine; it is not classified by the bible as a capital offense or MURDER.

You are quoting the wrong version of the Bible. Modern translators frender the text as follows:

New International Version
"If people are fighting and hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows.” [Exodus 21:22]

This reading of the text means that if there is harm to either the woman or her baby, the death penalty applies to the guilty.

 

[AirPo]

Thanks for saying it in bold and red it looks kind of like yelling I guess.

Look we have our opinions I could be saying a lot more but I'm controlling myself right now.

I don't use the King James Version either and that's for a reason to.

Now good day.

Amazing that some don't seem to understand that freedom and master are mutually exclusive.

 

[AirPo]

You are quoting the wrong version of the Bible. Modern translators frender the text as follows:

New International Version
"If people are fighting and hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows.” [Exodus 21:22]

This reading of the text means that if there is harm to either the woman or her baby, the death penalty applies to the guilty.

What makes you think there is such a thing as the wrong version of the Bible?

 

[Julie.S]

Amazing that some don't seem to understand that freedom and master are mutually exclusive.

Pardon?

 

[Subduction Zone]

You are quoting the wrong version of the Bible. Modern translators frender the text as follows:

New International Version
"If people are fighting and hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows.” [Exodus 21:22]

This reading of the text means that if there is harm to either the woman or her baby, the death penalty applies to the guilty.

That verse was reinterpreted only because of the interpreters' personal prejudice against abortion. But if you are ready to jump at the latest interpretation of the Bible does that mean that you are ready to give up the virgin birth myth? New versions have the verse that it was based upon as saying "the young woman will have a child" not "the virgin will have a child". You need to be consistent if you are going to change just because the interpretation has changed.

 

[Subduction Zone]

What makes you think there is such a thing as the wrong version of the Bible?

Or for that matter a "correct" version either.

 

[AirPo]

Pardon?

It seemed that someone was implying that you are serving two masters by making your own decisions.

 

[Cearbhall]

1. Abortion is murder. It is an affront not just to Christian teaching but to the very foundations of modern society. It takes the rule of law and due process and throws both out the window to allow adults, women like myself in particular, to kill their own offspring for even the most arbitrary of reasons. In most cases it's an evil and barbaric practice that in an ideal world should be criminalized outside of extreme circumstances.

This is all just rhetoric, though. I could take out the word abortion and fill in the blank with almost anything. You're entitled to these beliefs, but I don't recognize them as truth. Your comments on its relation to other laws aren't a logical comparison, and everything else is subjective and/or religious.

2. We do not live in that ideal world. Therefore whether we believe abortion to be right or wrong our time is better spent creating a world in which abortion is as unneeded and uncommon as possible. What will help that happen? Increased access to preventative birth-control, better and more widespread sex education, more resources for pregnant women regardless or age or background, and much needed reforms to the current adoption and foster-care systems.

I agree with this.