Abortion Discussion

[jayem]

I'm just guessing that that's what would actually happen if it were illegal. I'm guessing that the law makers would make a lesser charge for the woman although I could be wrong. I'm guessing that they'd reason that charging the doctor with first degree murder would be sufficient to stop the practice at least with a medical professional. And because of the nature of the argument, and where we are today, people would resist charging the mother with the more serious crime. It's a big IF anyway and not likely to every happen (abortion being illegal).

Gotta say I agree completely. It would be a political impossibility to charge the mother with murder. (Even though, if abortion really is murder, by logic, she should be.) And realistically, 1st trimester elective abortion will not be criminalized--at least not in our lifetimes.

A bit of legal hairsplitting: To my knowledge, even in pre-Roe days, it was only a crime to perform an abortion, not to obtain one. Which means that Roe v. Wade did not make abortion a right granted to a pregnant woman. Legalized abortion is really an immunity from prosecution, which is granted to an abortion provider. No woman has the right to have a abortion on demand, since no law or court ruling requires a physician to perform the procedure on anyone who requests it.

 

[AirPo]

I disagree! The sperm has no identity different from the male. The fetus—Latin for unborn baby—on the other hand has an identity that differs from any other human being in the entire world. It possesses it own unique DNA.

Besides, by the time most abortions are performed, the unborn has a heartbeat, it has hands, feet, and other features of a human being. The baby must be killed for it to cease to exist. Killing an innocent human being is murder according to my dictionary.

Then you dictionary is wrong, get a new one.

 

[Nic Samojluk]

I am sick and tired of the religious right pushing lies and twisting scripture to say that life begins at the moment of conception and that an egg with a sperm cell in it is a living person

All right! Tell us when, according to your opinion, human life begins!

 

[Nic Samojluk]

Of course I see that you are male so you will never be in this position.

Before 1973 it was illegal to offer abortion services to women in the U.S. Then the Supreme Court decided to legalize the killing of innocent human beings. If nine males created the right to abortion out of thin air, males have the right to undo the damage done by this unjust law.

 

[Nic Samojluk]

How many times have you been raped?

If you were the victim of rape, I feel sorry for you. I hope you did not get pregnant.

 

[Nic Samojluk]

Our laws are based on the idea that if those things are sins, then that's between the sinner and God--if there is a God.

Do you think that the government’s duty is to protect human beings from being the victims of theft, rape, and from murder? If yes, why are you trying to exempt the unborn from protection? Aren’t they human beings as well?

If the killing of unborn babies is legal, how come Scott Peterson was declared guilty of a double murder when he killed his pregnant wife?

 

[Nic Samojluk]

First, abortion isn't mirder.

My dictionary defines murder as the intentional killing of an innocent human being. When, according to your opinion does the unborn become a human being?

 

[Nic Samojluk]

Can I ask how you know what its like to go through this?

Let’s look at this from the point of view of the unborn baby for a change. Do you know how it feels getting poisoned to death; having your arms, legs, and head pulled from your body; or having your head crushed by forceps?

 

[Nic Samojluk]

In the US? That's easy... The law from the "unelected justices."

Really? Human law is morally superior to God’s law?

 

[SteveB28]

Murder is also a religious term:

“You shall not murder." [Exodus 20:13]

So what? Who says the affairs of all men should be dictated to by one particular religion?

Incidentally, why does every single variant of the bible translate it as 'kill' if it's meant to be something else?

 

[SteveB28]

Yes! Did the legalization of abortion reduce the number of abortions? In 1975 there were 700,000 reported abortions. By 1983, the number more than doubled: 1,500,000.

Suppose we legalize rape. Will this solve the problem? How about burglary, theft, and the sexual abuse of children? Does making crime legal solve the problem?

And since the time of legalisation, the numbers have steadily declined.

 

[OrthodoxForever]

No you think about it for a second. I am alive and have a soul and spirit. A fertilized egg has none nor is it alive with a life. You, I, and everyone else, are alive because God created us. Do you actually think someone can destroy something that God created long before we were even in the womb? Your lack of faith in God's Sovereignty is clearly showing. God is in control, not you, I, or some mother that chooses to end a pregnancy.
God Bless,
David

Then what do you make of babies who are born prematurely, who exit the womb less than fully developed? The point at which these children can be born and survive is being pushed back further and further all the time. Are you going to tell me that a premature newborn, born at 28 weeks lacks as soul? Afterall, they should have stayed in the womb for anther 12 weeks and if the unborn are soulless then that is the logical conclusion.

I was wondering how you would construe and reinterpret the verses i posted.

On the contrary every single one of them points to God valuing and wanting us protected BEFORE we are born. As for Jeremiah, yes he was a prophet... let me ask you, do you think his parents knew that before he was even born? Last I checked God isn't in the habit of disclosing His plan for a given child's life to the parents before they're even born. Jesus being the exception to this because of the unusually precarious situation Mary and the unborn Christ would have been in otherwise, usually though it's a complete mystery until much later. All the more reason that we, being fallible, mortal, and not having access to such information should try to preserve life whenever and wherever we can and I WILL fight anyone and anything that instead seeks to destroy life. I'm starting in America because I live here, I'm a citizen here, and I have a democratic voice in the goings on around here. My own home state de-funded planned parenthood two years ago and I was in full support of that motion. If there's an actual medical emergency where abortion *might* become the lesser evil that's what hospitals are for, the less access to be had to elective abortions the better.

 

[Julie.S]

Let’s look at this from the point of view of the unborn baby for a change. Do you know how it feels getting poisoned to death; having your arms, legs, and head pulled from your body; or having your head crushed by forceps?

No but then again I am sure no one else does either.
I think I have had food poisoning though and really bad because all I remember of it is mostly dragging myself to my bed.

 

[PapaZoom]

Gotta say I agree completely. It would be a political impossibility to charge the mother with murder. (Even though, if abortion really is murder, by logic, she should be.) And realistically, 1st trimester elective abortion will not be criminalized--at least not in our lifetimes.

A bit of legal hairsplitting: To my knowledge, even in pre-Roe days, it was only a crime to perform an abortion, not to obtain one. Which means that Roe v. Wade did not make abortion a right granted to a pregnant woman. Legalized abortion is really an immunity from prosecution, which is granted to an abortion provider. No woman has the right to have a abortion on demand, since no law or court ruling requires a physician to perform the procedure on anyone who requests it.

I think most people are a bit reluctant to charge the woman with a murder but I think that's only the case due to the political fallout.

It may be changing somewhat and doctors will be required to provide whatever care their patients need and that could include abortions.
http://rhrealitycheck.org/article/2...ntious-objection-in-reproductive-health-care/
http://www.lifenews.com/2009/01/01/nat-4865/

so much for "choice"

 

[redleghunter]

http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_hist_c.htm There is nothing to discuss any further other than what I have already said. I am tired of listening to a un-Biblical broken record with a major skip in it. There is not one word in the Bible against abortion and there is not word word in the Bible that says an egg with a sperm cell in it is a person. End of the lies and your lying story.

There's plenty of evidence of the unjustified premeditated shedding of innocent blood in the OT and NT.

Don't murder Exodus 20.

I pointed out twice your assertion that Exodus 21:ff supports abortion is false.

 

[jayem]

Do you think that the government’s duty is to protect persons from being the victims of theft, rape, and from murder?

I fixed your quote. The answer is yes, with that correction.

If yes, why are you trying to exempt the unborn from protection? Aren’t they human beings as well?

The unborn aren't legal persons. Though I agree they should be protected. But up to a point, the mother's right to choose what happens to her uterus takes precedence.

If the killing of unborn babies is legal, how come Scott Peterson was declared guilty of a double murder when he killed his pregnant wife?

Because, as per the Supreme Court, a legal abortion, done according to accepted medical standards, with the mother's informed consent, is not a crime and cannot be prosecuted. And that supercedes any state law to the contrary.

 

[Wgw]

Choosing to preserve the life of an innocent baby is never a statement that comes from the pit of Hell
It is not a baby or an individual, It is an egg with a sperm cell in it from a rapist. Nothing more and nothing less. No matter how much you lie to yourself and others you can never change that fact. Second; when you want to promote prolonging the suffering of a rape victims who has been brutally raped, then, it is a statement from the pits of hell. I am glad to inform you of this. Also, it is not murder as it is not alive or a person. It is an egg with a sperm cell in it from a rapist. Next.
God Bless,
David

Untrue; it is a person, and a person that must not be killed; if God desires it to be born, it will be born. Rape is evil, but the children of rapists are not evil nor the products of evil; they sre the victims.

It is bad enough these children will grow up without a natural father; let us not add insult to injury by depriving them of the life they might well have anyway.

I believe the government should compensate women who are raped financially. Many rapists are financially well off; the assets of all convicted rapists should be confiscated, sold off, and the funds carefully managed and used specifically to provide generous compensation to rape victims. This could be augmented with taxpayer provided funding.

I believe that if probable cause can be shown by the police that a woman was raped, even if a conviction does not exist or the perpetrator is not identified, the eoman should receive compensation of US $50,000 for bringing the child to term, and $2,000/mo in child support plus an additional $25,000 in personal compensation if they opt not to put the child up for adoption.

To prevent abuse, women enrolling in this program would be required to participate in a personal safety program to reduce the risk of further rapes of their person. In addition, women raped by their spouses or domestic partners would not be eligible for this automatic compensation program, but instead, would be eligible for civil damages awarded via the family law courts.

The rape victim compensation plan would be an entitlement for any woman who reported being sexually assaulted, who cooperated with a police investigation involving testing with a rape kit, and who it was ascertained according to probable cause were raped by a known or unknown individual.

I propose additionally a $350,000 lifetime entitlement for women who receive an STD as a result of sexual violence, and for children born with an STD as a result of rape; I also propose a government matchmaking service for persons infected with STDs in this manner, to provide safe dating, and special OB/GYN clinics.

 

[OrthodoxForever]

The unborn aren't legal persons. Though I agree they should be protected. But up to a point, the mother's right to choose what happens to her uterus takes precedence.

If the "mother's right to choose" takes precedence then what protection can their be? I agree that there comes a point where abortion may be the lesser of two evils, (a 100% certain non-viable pregnancy, when the mother's life is in immediate medical danger and other similar situations) but even as a woman I don't think that offering us the easy way out, regardless of whether we actually have a good reason or not is the answer. The answer is sex education and birth-control.

I don't religiously agree with sex outside of marriage but we all know it happens so why not offer the tools to at the very least be responsible about it and the knowledge of how to use them to the fullest, so that as many unwanted pregnancies as possible can be avoided in the first place?

And yes, you read that right... I'm not trying to control what other people do in the bedroom, all I ask is that they be responsible about it and should every effort be made and they still fail to avoid conceiving a child they didn't plan of having then accept that and deal with it in a way other than killing that unborn, completely innocent child just for existing...

 

[Julie.S]

If the "mother's right to choose" takes precedence then what protection can their be? I agree that there comes a point where abortion may be the lesser of two evils, (a 100% certain non-viable pregnancy, when the mother's life is in immediate medical danger and other similar situations) but even as a woman I don't think that offering us the easy way out, regardless of whether we actually have a good reason or not is the answer. The answer is sex education and birth-control.

I don't religiously agree with sex outside of marriage but we all know it happens so why not offer the tools to at the very least be responsible about it and the knowledge of how to use them to the fullest, so that as many unwanted pregnancies as possible can be avoided in the first place?

And yes, you read that right... I'm not trying to control what other people do in the bedroom, all I ask is that they be responsible about it and should every effort be made and they still fail to avoid conceiving a child they didn't plan of having then accept that and deal with it in a way other than killing that unborn, completely innocent child just for existing...

Yes just because a religion says its wrong does not mean we can take it all away from people it has to still at least be available. Taking it all away would in a sense be wrong as there are people who do not agree and pushing beliefs on others does not work out well in most situations. We need to educate people on what sex leads to education is key here.

Then again there are people who also just abandon their kids on the streets once they are old enough sadly. Some of those kids don't survive either and adoption can in some cases be a nightmare.

 

[Julie.S]

Rape is evil, but the children of rapists are not evil nor the products of evil

They are however the result of a forced mating and one party did not agree to it at all. They kind of are products of a terrible crime though. I know they don't ask for it but neither did their mother ask to be raped.