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OrthodoxForever

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Yes just because a religion says its wrong does not mean we can take it all away from people it has to still at least be available. Taking it all away would in a sense be wrong as there are people who do not agree and pushing beliefs on others does not work out well in most situations. We need to educate people on what sex leads to education is key here.

Then again there are people who also just abandon their kids on the streets once they are old enough sadly. Some of those kids don't survive either and adoption can in some cases be a nightmare.

Plus in this case it would be next to impossible to police everybody's sex lives even if it were possible. These days though I don't think the fact that sex leads to pregnancy is a well kept secret past the age of 10 though... what is in some areas however is how (other than keeping one's pants on) to avoid pregnancy... I know a lot of pro-life people will disagree with me but I think that comprehensive sex-ed, the kind that promotes responsible behavior but not sex, that gives people the information they need to make and informed decision and then lets them make their own choice, is invaluable and should be mandatory.

The people who are against it are usually fellow devout Christians who seem to think that this knowledge will encourage their kids to experiment with sex when really those kids should have been instilled with the values of modesty and chastity and know better long before they reach the age where they would be in such a class in the first place. They like to blame sex-education when really they should be looking at their own parenting and wondering what went wrong
 
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GoldenBoy89

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Really? Human law is morally superior to God’s law?
All laws are human laws, as far as I can tell. If you are taking about the laws in the bible, then yes, I believe our current laws are far superior to ones that existed around 20 to 30 centuries ago. Those laws may have been appropriate for those people, in their time but we are not living in ancient Judea.

We live in the United States, where the Constitution is the supreme law of the land and it specifically grants us freedom from those very same religious laws you speak of. It also specifically grants you and millions of others like you the freedom to follow whatever religious laws you like.
 
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Julie.S

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Plus in this case it would be next to impossible to police everybody's sex lives even if it were possible. These days though I don't think the fact that sex leads to pregnancy is a well kept secret past the age of 10 though... what is in some areas however is how (other than keeping one's pants on) to avoid pregnancy... I know a lot of pro-life people will disagree with me but I think that comprehensive sex-ed, the kind that promotes responsible behavior but not sex, that gives people the information they need to make and informed decision and then lets them make their own choice, is invaluable and should be mandatory.

The people who are against it are usually fellow devout Christians who seem to think that this knowledge will encourage their kids to experiment with sex when really those kids should have been instilled with the values of modesty and chastity and know better long before they reach the age where they would be in such a class in the first place. They like to blame sex-education when really they should be looking at their own parenting and wondering what went wrong
I agree with that very much.
 
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redleghunter

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I fixed your quote. The answer is yes, with that correction.



The unborn aren't legal persons. Though I agree they should be protected. But up to a point, the mother's right to choose what happens to her uterus takes precedence.



Because, as per the Supreme Court, a legal abortion, done according to accepted medical standards, with the mother's informed consent, is not a crime and cannot be prosecuted. And that supercedes any state law to the contrary.

Would you please define legal persons. I oft see that term misused. I believe you misapplied it in your post.
 
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redleghunter

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Yes just because a religion says its wrong does not mean we can take it all away from people it has to still at least be available. Taking it all away would in a sense be wrong as there are people who do not agree and pushing beliefs on others does not work out well in most situations. We need to educate people on what sex leads to education is key here.

Then again there are people who also just abandon their kids on the streets once they are old enough sadly. Some of those kids don't survive either and adoption can in some cases be a nightmare.

As a Christian what standard do you point to in order to test truth claims?
 
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redleghunter

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They are however the result of a forced mating and one party did not agree to it at all. They kind of are products of a terrible crime though. I know they don't ask for it but neither did their mother ask to be raped.

Rape is horrible and punishable by law. Yet there is no death penalty in the West for such a crime.

Why must a new human life, innocent of the evil done to the mother suffer death when the offender male committed the crime?

What would happen if the woman who was raped shot and killed the rapist one day, two or three months later? She would be convicted of premeditated murder and possibly face capital punishment.
 
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GoldenBoy89

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Why must a new human life, innocent of the evil done to the mother suffer death when the offender male committed the crime?
Why must the woman carry her rapist's offspring? It was never her choice to be involved in a criminal violation of her body and whatever results of that is fully on the perpetrator. If anything... I say charge the rapist with murder if she decides to abort. It's his fault any of this happened anyway.

If a woman ends up pregnant as the victim of a rape and wants to carry that child to term, put it up for adoption or raise it herself, I have no problem with that. However, I would also never fault a woman who decides to end a pregnancy that she not only did not ever intend on having, but was criminally forced upon her.
 
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Julie.S

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As a Christian what standard do you point to in order to test truth claims?
What I know of my religion and what I have gathered knowledge wise from what I learned in college. Ethics, Psychology, Philosophy and Sociology taught me a lot about multiple things. I'm not expert in the fields but I took away a lot.

Ethics taught me that no matter what you think there will always be someone out there who does not agree and they tend to get angry sometimes.

Just because I'm a Christian does not mean I have other sources. I like to look at trusted statistics and numbers.
 
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redleghunter

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Why must the woman carry her rapist's offspring? It was never her choice to be involved in a criminal violation of her body and whatever results of that is fully on the perpetrator. If anything... I say charge the rapist with murder if she decides to abort. It's his fault any of this happened anyway.

If a woman ends up pregnant as the victim of a rape and wants to carry that child to term, put it up for adoption or raise it herself, I have no problem with that. However, I would also never fault a woman who decides to end a pregnancy that she not only did not ever intend on having, but was criminally forced upon her.

Why? Because the human life gestating in the woman committed no crime or evil.

The correct response to the trauma of the rape victim would be for the rapist to die before the child.

Justice is not supposed to be emotion based, nor allow two wrongs to somehow make things right.

It's an emotional response, very real and painful, to come to the conclusion another human life not connected to a crime or evil suffers the consequences of said actions.

Yet no series of rationalizations makes aborting a child conceived through violence a just act. It's not just.

As bombing a hospital with civilians present to kill terrorists is not a justified response.

The only way to convince yourself to justify killing a human life in the womb due to rape is to dehumanize your target.

Same goes for the hospital response as well. If the trigger pullers are told the civilians in the hospital are just terrorist sympathizers or worse subhuman because of race, creed or color, you get the same unjustified rationalizations.
 
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redleghunter

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If a woman ends up pregnant as the victim of a rape and wants to carry that child to term, put it up for adoption or raise it herself, I have no problem with that. However, I would also never fault a woman who decides to end a pregnancy that she not only did not ever intend on having, but was criminally forced upon her.

That seems to be a way to explain away what exactly are justified claims.

I understand your opinion but it lacks a clear justification. When we speak of ending a human life, we must have some clear justification.

Or we need to redefine the nature of the target and perform some dehumanizing mental drill to convince ourselves that who the mother is carrying is sub human or not a human at all.
 
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GoldenBoy89

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Why? Because the human life gestating in the woman committed no crime or evil.
If it was criminally forced upon her she is under no obligation to support it. It resulted specifically from a crime against her body. To force her to carry it to term would be a secondary violation against the woman.

What was that about two wrongs, again?
 
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redleghunter

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What I know of my religion and what I have gathered knowledge wise from what I learned in college. Ethics, Psychology, Philosophy and Sociology taught me a lot about multiple things. I'm not expert in the fields but I took away a lot.

Ethics taught me that no matter what you think there will always be someone out there who does not agree and they tend to get angry sometimes.

Just because I'm a Christian does not mean I have other sources. I like to look at trusted statistics and numbers.

Frankly it does matter.

Jesus said:

Matthew 6:24 New King James Version (NKJV)
24 “No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other.
 
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redleghunter

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If it was criminally forced upon her she is under no obligation to support it. It resulted specifically from a crime against her body. To force her to carry it to term would be a secondary violation against the woman.

What was that about two wrongs, again?

That's still an emotional response to the situation and does not address how ending a human life which committed no crime to suffer the death penalty.

The only justified response to the rape is to punish the rapist. If someone shoots and kills the rapist, they will go to jail.

So in your scenario the rapist gets 7-10 in the state pen with chances of paroll early.

Yet the woman can act as judge, jury and executioner for human life which did no harm?
 
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GoldenBoy89

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That's still an emotional response to the situation and does not address how ending a human life which committed no crime to suffer the death penalty.
What human life? You mean the one that was criminally forced into the woman? You're going to further force her to carry that life just because there is no other alternative to support it?

There is an alternative... You may not like it but there is an alternative and unfortunately it involves a decision of life or death.
 
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OrthodoxForever

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What human life? You mean the one that was criminally forced into the woman? You're going to further force her to carry that life just because there is no other alternative to support it?

There is an alternative... You may not like it but there is an alternative and unfortunately it involves a decision of life or death.
Less than .1% of all abortions result from rape. Unless the pregnancy is the result of rape the child was not criminally forced upon anyone and even if they were, they are not their father. They did nothing wrong, actually they are every bit as much victims as their mothers. Seems pretty cruel to kill someone because of something someone else did to BOTH of you doesn't it?
 
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OrthodoxForever

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What I know of my religion and what I have gathered knowledge wise from what I learned in college. Ethics, Psychology, Philosophy and Sociology taught me a lot about multiple things. I'm not expert in the fields but I took away a lot.

Ethics taught me that no matter what you think there will always be someone out there who does not agree and they tend to get angry sometimes.

Just because I'm a Christian does not mean I have other sources. I like to look at trusted statistics and numbers.
So basically God has no say and His word matters little to you when it comes to what is right or wrong? Color me confused if that is what you're saying.

I also have an interest in psychology, philosophy, ethics, and history... I also read my Bible daily and try to understand why God promotes what He promotes and prohibits what he does. I have found that there seem to be two things at work in the biblical view of right and wrong.

1 Respect for Persons, as in respect for each individual person and respect for the sacredness of life itself
2 Whatever does the most good and the least harm, including spiritual good and harm

That's based on my own research and life experience so take what you will but I don't see how a Christian can completely disregard the Word of God on the subject of what does and doesn't constitute moral conduct
 
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tiglathpileser

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Please, please, please stay on topic here guys... I think this is an important discussion for the Body of Christ as a whole along with society at large to have but the last thread addressing it got overrun with an off topic argument and closed... Please stay on topic...

Here are my basic beliefs on the subject of abortion:

Pro-Life

1. Abortion is murder. It is an affront not just to Christian teaching but to the very foundations of modern society. It takes the rule of law and due process and throws both out the window to allow adults, women like myself in particular, to kill their own offspring for even the most arbitrary of reasons. In most cases it's an evil and barbaric practice that in an ideal world should be criminalized outside of extreme circumstances. To clarify what I mean by "Extreme Circumstances" if there's a higher than 55% chance that the mother will die if she gives birth or carries to term, or if there is less than a 10% chance that the child will be born alive. Even at that point abortion is a necessary evil. It is never right, but there are situations in which it is still better than the alternative and any legal sanctions against it MUST provide exceptions to take those situations into account.

2. We do not live in that ideal world. Therefore whether we believe abortion to be right or wrong our time is better spent creating a world in which abortion is as unneeded and uncommon as possible. What will help that happen? Increased access to preventative birth-control, better and more widespread sex education, more resources for pregnant women regardless or age or background, and much needed reforms to the current adoption and foster-care systems.

3. Until the points outlined above in #2 are accomplished criminalizing abortion would solve very little and create more problems than it gets rid of.

4. I do not fly with the "quality of life" "sick kids shouldn't even be born" argument...

First of all, I want to make it clear that I am not writing this to convince anyone they should not support abortion.

Second, any discussion of abortion starts with the inevitable fact that every abortion kills a baby. This is not a christian concept. it was admitted to by two prominent abortionists who went on the record.

Third, this being the case, we should ask ourselves why an innocent baby that has done no wrong should be offered up on the altar of convenience for any reason and I say this because the majority of abortions are matters of convenience.

Whilst point two raises some interesting points, some need to be put right.

One. Better and more widespread sex education is a failure. I was on a committee that advised the government on sex education in schools. We said the evidence is that sex education will increase teen pregnancy. They ignored our advice and introduced it. Result. An increase in teen pregnancy. Response. More sex education. Result more teen pregnancies. Response. More sex education. Result. More teen pregnancies.

The government were too proud to admit they had got it wrong and as a result they messed up many teenage lives because of dogma.

Two. As for a baby having less than a 10% chance of living being a candidate for abortion, I would say no. Some friends of ours were told that their first baby had little or no hope of living and that they should abort. They refused and carried the baby to full term. The little girl lived for 13 hours and during that time the mother cradled her in her arms. When asked about the experience she said it was the most precious 13 hours that she had lived. It was their baby and she died knowing that she was loved and wanted and she never regretted bringing it into the world.

Three, having been involved in a Pregnancy Resource Centre, I think that you will find that they are opening up all over the country. The majority of them are church based or run. What this means is that no woman need go it alone in a pregnancy. As the number of these grow so there will be less need to abort a baby.

One final point. it is claimed by pro-abortionists that if abortion were to be made illegal, women would have to cope with the dangers of backyard abortions. This is scaremongering in the extreme and does not have an ounce of truth in it. What would happen is that abortionists would set up a clandestine operation and using the same methods that they already use, start all over again.

For those who want to know the truth, more women have been injured or died from legal abortion that they ever did before it was legalised.

Finally, criminalising abortion has had its benefits as there are now thousands of children walking the streets that would have been aborted. Texas in particular has passed laws that has made it impossible for abortion providers to operated like backyard abortionists so to date 81 have closed their business because they do not want to conform to good medical practice. That is a good thing as it means more women will not be traumatised by bad medical practice than has been the norm up till now.
 
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tiglathpileser

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My thoughts are that if I knew of a little girl that had been raped and she was too young to have a child and could die like if she was 8 or something...... Then I think abortion is a good idea.

Tthe chances of an eight year old girl getting pregnant are about a million to one.
 
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tiglathpileser

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I'm never going to tell someone what to do with their life or body it's not my call unless there is a high chance of them dying.

This is a common argument brought up by those who favour abortion so one has to ask if you knew someone threatening suicide you would say "it's your life so it is no business of mine."

There isn't any difference between suicide and having an abortion because the abortion will definitely end the life of the baby and may end the life of the mother or cause trauma and grief that can last for 20 years. With suicide you die, with abortion you could die emotionally and mentally and have trauma and grief for year after year after year after year because you know that you had your baby killed.
 
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Archivist

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Before 1973 it was illegal to offer abortion services to women in the U.S. Then the Supreme Court decided to legalize the killing of innocent human beings. If nine males created the right to abortion out of thin air, males have the right to undo the damage done by this unjust law.

Not entirely true. Prior to Roe abortion was a state issue, and some states did permit it in cases of rape and incest. Others did not.
 
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