A Violent God?

[whitestar]

http://www.carm.org/bible/inspiration.htm

Is the Bible inspired?​

​

The doctrine of the inspiration of the Bible means that the Bible in the original documents is God-breathed, that they are a divine product, and because they are divine, they are inerrant in the original documents. The copies of those documents are not inspired. We have copies of inspired documents.

2 Tim. 3:16-17 says, "All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work." Paul who wrote this epistle was obviously referring to the entirety of the Old Testament as being inspired. The word "inspired" is literally "God breathed." This is an interesting phrase since it implies that the Scriptures are from the mouth of God. Likewise, Peter says in 2 Pet. 1:21, "for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God." Notice that Peter is stating that prophecy is not the product of human will. Instead, prophecy occurs by those moved by the Holy Spirit.
Furthermore, we can easily see that the Old Testament Scriptures are full of statements and phrases claiming to be the Word of God.

1. <"Thus says the Lord" occurs 418 times in the NASB, 413 in the KJV
   1. Exodus 4:22, "Then you shall say to Pharaoh, ‘Thus says the Lord, "Israel is My son, My first-born." 1 Kings 11:31, "And he said to Jeroboam, "Take for yourself ten pieces; for thus says the Lord, the God of Israel, ‘Behold, I will tear the kingdom out of the hand of Solomon and give you ten tribes."
   2. Isaiah 7:7, "thus says the Lord God, "It shall not stand nor shall it come to pass."
   "God said" occurs 46 times in both the NASB and the KJV
   1. Genesis 1:3, "Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light."Exodus 3:14, "And God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’"
   2. Exodus 6:2-3, "God spoke further to Moses and said to him, "I am the Lord; 3 and I appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as God Almighty, but by My name, Lord, I did not make Myself known to them."
   God spoke through prophets
   1. 1 Kings 14:18, "And all Israel buried him and mourned for him, according to the word of the Lord which He spoke through His servant Ahijah the prophet." 2 Sam. 24:11-12, "When David arose in the morning, the word of the Lord came to the prophet Gad, David’s seer, saying, 12 "Go and speak to David, ‘Thus the Lord says, "I am offering you three things; choose for yourself one of them, which I may do to you."’"
   2. Zech. 7:7, ‘Are not these the words which the Lord proclaimed by the former prophets, when Jerusalem was inhabited and prosperous with its cities around it, and the Negev and the foothills were inhabited?’"
   The Spirit of the Lord spoke through people
   1. 2 Sam. 23:2, "The Spirit of the Lord spoke by me, and His word was on my tongue."
   2. 1 Kings 22:24, "Then Zedekiah the son of Chenaanah came near and struck Micaiah on the cheek and said, "How did the Spirit of the Lord pass from me to speak to you?"
   3. 2 Chron. 20:14, "Then in the midst of the assembly the Spirit of the Lord came upon Jahaziel the son of Zechariah, the son of Benaiah, the son of Jeiel, the son of Mattaniah, the Levite of the sons of Asaph; 15 and he said, "Listen, all Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem and King Jehoshaphat: thus says the Lord to you, ‘Do not fear or be dismayed because of this great multitude, for the battle is not yours but God’s."

As you can see, the Old Testament Scriptures are clearly full of statements showing the inspiration of God through the writers. The Old Testament assumes and speaks from the perspective of divine inspiration. Should we do any less?

What about the New Testament?​

We see that the Old Testament is repeatedly spoken of as being inspired via the numerous references cited above, but what about the New Testament? Are the New Testament books inspired as well?
The Christian church has always considered the New Testament documents to be inspired. Though in the early church there were some debates on which New Testament books to include in the Bible, God worked through the Christian church to recognize those inspired works. Therefore we now have 27 inspired books for the New Testament.
In 1 Cor. 14:37 Paul said, "If anyone thinks he is a prophet or spiritual, let him recognize that the things which I write to you are the Lord’s commandment." In 2 Pet. 3:16 Peter said, "as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction." Also, Jesus said in John 14:26, "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you." This means that the Lord has commissioned the apostles to accurately record what Jesus had said because the Holy Spirit would be working in them.
So, we can see that Jesus promised direction from the Holy Spirit, that Paul considered what he wrote to be the commands of God, and that Peter recognized Paul's writings as Scripture. In addition, since the Christian Church recognizes the 27 books of the New Testament is inspired, and since we see internal claims of inspiration in the New Testament, we conclude that inspiration applies to the New Testament documents as well.

Objections​

1. Inspiration violates free will.
   1. Inspiration does not violate free will. What if the person through whom God is working, who has been regenerated by the Holy Spirit and desires to have the Lord speak through him? Would this negate the ability of God to it innerrantly speak through such a person? Would it also mean that the person has no free will if he has voluntarily subjected his will to the will of God?
   2. Certainly God has the ability to work through individuals to bring them to a place where they can record inerrant statements. Cannot God manifest himself to someone, deliver to him a verbal message, and have that person record it? Would that statement not be inspired of God?
   3. Prov. 21:1,"The king’s heart is like channels of water in the hand of the Lord; he turns it wherever He wishes." This verse clearly states that God is able to work through an individual's "free will" to bring about what God desires.
   What about the numerous contradictions in the Bible?
   1. Is true that there are difficulties with in the Word of God. But these are due to copying errors through the centuries. As more and more historical, archaeological, and manuscript evidence is uncovered, the fewer Bible difficulties there are. Nevertheless, for an examination of answers to the alleged Bible contradictions, please see Bible Difficulties.
   The manuscript evidence doesn't support inerrancy of the originals.
   1. This is a subjective conclusion. The more I have studied about the ancient manuscript, the more I have concluded that the original documents were indeed inspired and inerrant.
   2. The logical implication of the statements within the Bible is that they are inerrant since they claim to be offered from God. They either are or are not inspired of God. If they are not, then their claims of speaking for God are lies.

 

[Martinez]

Matthew 12

The Unpardonable Sin


31 “Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

Whitestar,

why are you metioning that particular verse?
Did I miss something?

 

[Martinez]

http://www.carm.org/bible/inspiration.htm

Is the Bible inspired?​

The doctrine of the inspiration of the Bible means that the Bible in the original documents is God-breathed, that they are a divine product, and because they are divine, they are inerrant in the original documents. The copies of those documents are not inspired. We have copies of inspired documents.

2 Tim. 3:16-17 says, "All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work." Paul who wrote this epistle was obviously referring to the entirety of the Old Testament as being inspired. The word "inspired" is literally "God breathed." This is an interesting phrase since it implies that the Scriptures are from the mouth of God. Likewise, Peter says in 2 Pet. 1:21, "for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God." Notice that Peter is stating that prophecy is not the product of human will. Instead, prophecy occurs by those moved by the Holy Spirit.
Furthermore, we can easily see that the Old Testament Scriptures are full of statements and phrases claiming to be the Word of God.

1. <"Thus says the Lord" occurs 418 times in the NASB, 413 in the KJV
   1. Exodus 4:22, "Then you shall say to Pharaoh, ‘Thus says the Lord, "Israel is My son, My first-born." 1 Kings 11:31, "And he said to Jeroboam, "Take for yourself ten pieces; for thus says the Lord, the God of Israel, ‘Behold, I will tear the kingdom out of the hand of Solomon and give you ten tribes."
   2. Isaiah 7:7, "thus says the Lord God, "It shall not stand nor shall it come to pass."
   "God said" occurs 46 times in both the NASB and the KJV
   1. Genesis 1:3, "Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light."Exodus 3:14, "And God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’"
   2. Exodus 6:2-3, "God spoke further to Moses and said to him, "I am the Lord; 3 and I appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as God Almighty, but by My name, Lord, I did not make Myself known to them."
   God spoke through prophets
   1. 1 Kings 14:18, "And all Israel buried him and mourned for him, according to the word of the Lord which He spoke through His servant Ahijah the prophet." 2 Sam. 24:11-12, "When David arose in the morning, the word of the Lord came to the prophet Gad, David’s seer, saying, 12 "Go and speak to David, ‘Thus the Lord says, "I am offering you three things; choose for yourself one of them, which I may do to you."’"
   2. Zech. 7:7, ‘Are not these the words which the Lord proclaimed by the former prophets, when Jerusalem was inhabited and prosperous with its cities around it, and the Negev and the foothills were inhabited?’"
   The Spirit of the Lord spoke through people
   1. 2 Sam. 23:2, "The Spirit of the Lord spoke by me, and His word was on my tongue."
   2. 1 Kings 22:24, "Then Zedekiah the son of Chenaanah came near and struck Micaiah on the cheek and said, "How did the Spirit of the Lord pass from me to speak to you?"
   3. 2 Chron. 20:14, "Then in the midst of the assembly the Spirit of the Lord came upon Jahaziel the son of Zechariah, the son of Benaiah, the son of Jeiel, the son of Mattaniah, the Levite of the sons of Asaph; 15 and he said, "Listen, all Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem and King Jehoshaphat: thus says the Lord to you, ‘Do not fear or be dismayed because of this great multitude, for the battle is not yours but God’s."

As you can see, the Old Testament Scriptures are clearly full of statements showing the inspiration of God through the writers. The Old Testament assumes and speaks from the perspective of divine inspiration. Should we do any less?

What about the New Testament?​

We see that the Old Testament is repeatedly spoken of as being inspired via the numerous references cited above, but what about the New Testament? Are the New Testament books inspired as well?
The Christian church has always considered the New Testament documents to be inspired. Though in the early church there were some debates on which New Testament books to include in the Bible, God worked through the Christian church to recognize those inspired works. Therefore we now have 27 inspired books for the New Testament.
In 1 Cor. 14:37 Paul said, "If anyone thinks he is a prophet or spiritual, let him recognize that the things which I write to you are the Lord’s commandment." In 2 Pet. 3:16 Peter said, "as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction." Also, Jesus said in John 14:26, "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you." This means that the Lord has commissioned the apostles to accurately record what Jesus had said because the Holy Spirit would be working in them.
So, we can see that Jesus promised direction from the Holy Spirit, that Paul considered what he wrote to be the commands of God, and that Peter recognized Paul's writings as Scripture. In addition, since the Christian Church recognizes the 27 books of the New Testament is inspired, and since we see internal claims of inspiration in the New Testament, we conclude that inspiration applies to the New Testament documents as well.

Objections​

1. Inspiration violates free will.
   1. Inspiration does not violate free will. What if the person through whom God is working, who has been regenerated by the Holy Spirit and desires to have the Lord speak through him? Would this negate the ability of God to it innerrantly speak through such a person? Would it also mean that the person has no free will if he has voluntarily subjected his will to the will of God?
   2. Certainly God has the ability to work through individuals to bring them to a place where they can record inerrant statements. Cannot God manifest himself to someone, deliver to him a verbal message, and have that person record it? Would that statement not be inspired of God?
   3. Prov. 21:1,"The king’s heart is like channels of water in the hand of the Lord; he turns it wherever He wishes." This verse clearly states that God is able to work through an individual's "free will" to bring about what God desires.
   What about the numerous contradictions in the Bible?
   1. Is true that there are difficulties with in the Word of God. But these are due to copying errors through the centuries. As more and more historical, archaeological, and manuscript evidence is uncovered, the fewer Bible difficulties there are. Nevertheless, for an examination of answers to the alleged Bible contradictions, please see Bible Difficulties.
   The manuscript evidence doesn't support inerrancy of the originals.
   1. This is a subjective conclusion. The more I have studied about the ancient manuscript, the more I have concluded that the original documents were indeed inspired and inerrant.
   2. The logical implication of the statements within the Bible is that they are inerrant since they claim to be offered from God. They either are or are not inspired of God. If they are not, then their claims of speaking for God are lies.

another excellent post Whitestar!
and pretty damn water tight too!

well done!

 

[whitestar]

Whitestar,

why are you metioning that particular verse?
Did I miss something?

She was saying that God forgives sin...and I was trying to post some scriptures that show that no, God doesn't just forgive sin...not of everything...like He cannot forgive the sins of those that haven't accepted Him as their Savior and paid FOR their sins in Jesus...and second, there is a condition on getting your sins forgiven. That we have to forgive those that sin against us AND that there is ONE sin that cannot be forgiven..which is what I posted there.

http://www.studylight.org/com/bcc/view.cgi?book=mt&chapter=012
Coffman Commentaries on the Old and New Testament
Verse 32
And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him; but whosoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in that which is to come.

Many did speak against Christ, but when the Spirit of God came of Pentecost, they obeyed the gospel message and were saved. Those who spoke against the Spirit, rejecting the gospel which he delivered through the apostles, were not saved. No other means of redemption was given. Those who rejected the Spirit received no forgiveness then, or ever. One should avoid reading into this passage any hope that some sins will be forgiven in the world to come which remain unforgiven now. We agree with Boles. "No sin, unforgiven here, or in this world, will be pardoned or forgiven hereafter."


http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/view.cgi?book=mt&chapter=012
Adam Clark bible Commentary
But the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost
Even personal reproaches, revilings, persecutions against Christ, were remissible; but blasphemy, or impious speaking against the Holy Spirit was to have no forgiveness: i.e. when the person obstinately attributed those works to the devil, which he had the fullest evidence could be wrought only by the Spirit of God. That this, and nothing else, is the sin against the Holy Spirit, is evident from the connection in this place, and more particularly from Mark 3:28-30. "All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme; but he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation; BECAUSE they said, He hath an unclean spirit."

Here the matter is made clear beyond the smallest doubt-the unpardonable sin, as some term it, is neither less nor more than ascribing the miracles Christ wrought, by the power of God, to the spirit of the devil. Many sincere people have been grievously troubled with apprehensions that they had committed the unpardonable sin; but let it be observed that no man who believes the Divine mission of Jesus Christ, ever can commit this sin: therefore let no man's heart fail because of it, from henceforth and for ever, Amen

I was just making a point here that not ALL sins are forgiven. I have no idea if she meant just believers or everyone or what...here is another intesting article on sin...sadly some Christian think they can sin all they want if they accept Jesus as their Savior..it just doesn't work that way.

http://www.carm.org/questions/accept_Jesus.htm
If we accept Jesus as Savior,
can we then sin all we want?​

 

[Martinez]

She was saying that God forgives sin...and I was trying to post some scriptures that show that no, God doesn't just forgive sin...not of everything...like He cannot forgive the sins of those that haven't accepted Him as their Savior and paid FOR their sins in Jesus...and second, there is a condition on getting your sins forgiven. That we have to forgive those that sin against us AND that there is ONE sin that cannot be forgiven..which is what I posted there.

http://www.studylight.org/com/bcc/view.cgi?book=mt&chapter=012
Coffman Commentaries on the Old and New Testament
Verse 32
And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him; but whosoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in that which is to come.

Many did speak against Christ, but when the Spirit of God came of Pentecost, they obeyed the gospel message and were saved. Those who spoke against the Spirit, rejecting the gospel which he delivered through the apostles, were not saved. No other means of redemption was given. Those who rejected the Spirit received no forgiveness then, or ever. One should avoid reading into this passage any hope that some sins will be forgiven in the world to come which remain unforgiven now. We agree with Boles. "No sin, unforgiven here, or in this world, will be pardoned or forgiven hereafter."


http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/view.cgi?book=mt&chapter=012
Adam Clark bible Commentary
But the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost
Even personal reproaches, revilings, persecutions against Christ, were remissible; but blasphemy, or impious speaking against the Holy Spirit was to have no forgiveness: i.e. when the person obstinately attributed those works to the devil, which he had the fullest evidence could be wrought only by the Spirit of God. That this, and nothing else, is the sin against the Holy Spirit, is evident from the connection in this place, and more particularly from Mark 3:28-30. "All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme; but he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation; BECAUSE they said, He hath an unclean spirit."

Here the matter is made clear beyond the smallest doubt-the unpardonable sin, as some term it, is neither less nor more than ascribing the miracles Christ wrought, by the power of God, to the spirit of the devil. Many sincere people have been grievously troubled with apprehensions that they had committed the unpardonable sin; but let it be observed that no man who believes the Divine mission of Jesus Christ, ever can commit this sin: therefore let no man's heart fail because of it, from henceforth and for ever, Amen

I was just making a point here that not ALL sins are forgiven. I have no idea if she meant just believers or everyone or what...here is another intesting article on sin...sadly some Christian think they can sin all they want if they accept Jesus as their Savior..it just doesn't work that way.

http://www.carm.org/questions/accept_Jesus.htm

If we accept Jesus as Savior,
can we then sin all we want?
​

OK then.

cool!

 

[FLANDIDLYANDERS]

There is no sin.

We obey God, or not.

 

[trase]

Since the Bible is inerrant there actually are "talking snakes and mules" ??

 

[Athene]

Belief that the bible is inerrant because the bible says so is slightly naive don't you think? Let me put this another way . . . if a person doesn't believe the bible is inerrant then using proof texts to 'proove' inerrancy is not going to make the slightest bit of difference.

Now . . . Is this verse God breathed?

1Tim 5:23 No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for your stomach's sake and your frequent infirmities.

The wine stomach verse is my favorite, to me reading it, it sounds like advice from one friend to another, I can imagine Timothy saying to Paul that he's suffering from stomach upsets and Paul giving him some advice, nearly 2000 years later we now know not to give people with stomach upsets wine due to the fact that wine contains acid which would cause stomach upset. So is this Paul giving some advice based on the medical knowledge of the time, or does God know absolutely nothing about human physiology?

 

[Martinez]

Belief that the bible is inerrant because the bible says so is slightly naive don't you think? Let me put this another way . . . if a person doesn't believe the bible is inerrant then using proof texts to 'proove' inerrancy is not going to make the slightest bit of difference.

Now . . . Is this verse God breathed?

1Tim 5:23 No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for your stomach's sake and your frequent infirmities.

The wine stomach verse is my favorite, to me reading it, it sounds like advice from one friend to another, I can imagine Timothy saying to Paul that he's suffering from stomach upsets and Paul giving him some advice, nearly 2000 years later we now know not to give people with stomach upsets wine due to the fact that wine contains acid which would cause stomach upset. So is this Paul giving some advice based on the medical knowledge of the time, or does God know absolutely nothing about human physiology?

Actually,

Paul says to put a bit of wine with his water as a way of killing some of the nasties that were the water supply of the time!
so mabey God does know what He's talking about then eh!

 

[DailyBlessings]

Actually,

Paul says to put a bit of wine with his water as a way of killing some of the nasties that were the water supply of the time!
so mabey God does know what He's talking about then eh!

That wouldn't work.

 

[Martinez]

That wouldn't work.

How do you get that?

alcohol kills germs!
they use it sterolize stuff to this day!

 

[Casstranquility]

If you reject what is seemingly inconsistant with His love, then you a missing most of what He is trying to say to you because all of His judgemnts flow out of His love!

There is no judgment in love.

 

[Casstranquility]

Oh! I totally misunderstood you...I thought you had asked me if I had...I will go back and look at that one, I may have completely missed it.

Thanks.

That is for those that are His...and have asked for forgivness for their sins.

You make Christ sound so ineffectual.

If we do not forgive those who sin against us, God will not forgive our sins. We cannot just sin and assume God will just forget it..that is NOT what the bible says!

I don't think so. Love doesn't say "I'll forgive you....IF you forgive them. No, Love has no ifs.

Why do you think the bible is not true? And that the 'knowlege' in you about God, is the correct one and not one you made up through the influences of others?

Because, it doesn't seem true compared to what God's taught me about Himself. Well, let's see, the influences of others mostly tells me to believe the Bible is true and stop following the path God has put me on....I think I'll listen to God rather than man.

How do you know that for sure?

How do I know that the Bible doesn't have the ultimate authority on God's character? Because, there are many other books that speak of God, and more importantly, Love speaks of God.

how do you define love? How do you know the bible is not the word of God?

I define Love as the energy force that binds everything together in perfect unity. It doesn't envy, nor does it keep a record of wrongs. It sees others with open eyes-full of understanding and compassion. It gently guides people to their highest self. It doesn't judge.

Because, Christ is said to be the Word of God-"The Word was with God, and the Word was God." That's not talking about the Bible.

-Cassie

 

[Casstranquility]

The doctrine of the inspiration of the Bible means that the Bible in the original documents is God-breathed, that they are a divine product, and because they are divine, they are inerrant in the original documents. The copies of those documents are not inspired. We have copies of inspired documents.

2 Tim. 3:16-17 says, "All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work." Paul who wrote this epistle was obviously referring to the entirety of the Old Testament as being inspired. The word "inspired" is literally "God breathed." This is an interesting phrase since it implies that the Scriptures are from the mouth of God. Likewise, Peter says in 2 Pet. 1:21, "for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God." Notice that Peter is stating that prophecy is not the product of human will. Instead, prophecy occurs by those moved by the Holy Spirit.
Furthermore, we can easily see that the Old Testament Scriptures are full of statements and phrases claiming to be the Word of God.

I'm sorry, but as Athene said, the Bible cannot be proven to be inspired by God because it says so. Guess what, some of my journal is inspired by God. Yes, because it says so. (I mean it, really, God spoke to me, and I wrote down what He said.) But, you won't believe that any of my journal is inspired by God, will you?

 

[Casstranquility]

She was saying that God forgives sin...and I was trying to post some scriptures that show that no, God doesn't just forgive sin...not of everything...like He cannot forgive the sins of those that haven't accepted Him as their Savior and paid FOR their sins in Jesus...and second, there is a condition on getting your sins forgiven. That we have to forgive those that sin against us AND that there is ONE sin that cannot be forgiven..which is what I posted there.

Wait a second, are you saying that there are some things that God cannot do? So, it is true, God is not all-powerful afterall....hmm....

I was just making a point here that not ALL sins are forgiven. I have no idea if she meant just believers or everyone or what...here is another intesting article on sin...sadly some Christian think they can sin all they want if they accept Jesus as their Savior..it just doesn't work that way.

Yes, ALL sins are forgiven. Especially since sin doesn't exist...but that's another argument not for this particular discussion. I meant everyone.
Hmm? I haven't seen anyone here claiming that they can go around living outside of love.

 

[Casstranquility]

I think this thread needs a little...

Group hug!

 

[Martinez]

There is no judgment in love.

That's quite the little Idol you have fashioned in your own image there for yourself, not exercising any judgment!

 

[Athene]

How do you get that?

alcohol kills germs!
they use it sterolize stuff to this day!

If the alcohol content in the wine was high enough to steralize then it would also be high enough to if not kill then do massive internal harm to the drinker, that's why we don't drink industrial ethanol because the alcohol content is too high and our bodies wouldn't be able to metabolise it.

 

[Martinez]

If the alcohol content in the wine was high enough to steralize then it would also be high enough to if not kill then do massive internal harm to the drinker, that's why we don't drink industrial ethanol because the alcohol content is too high and our bodies wouldn't be able to metabolise it.

what you a dissputing here is a well know fact!

go look it up.

 

[whitestar]

trase: Since the Bible is inerrant there actually are "talking snakes and mules" ??

The 'serpeant' in the garden of Eden was an describtion of satan...now whether he used a real snake to 'talk through' or not, I do not know. I don't know if he has that kind of power. In Revelation satan is refered to a a serpent.

Revelation 12:9
This great dragon--the ancient serpent called the Devil, or Satan, the one deceiving the whole world--was thrown down to the earth with all his angels.

Satan is called this because of the type of being he has become...low, underhanded, not to be trusted, etc....God used animals alot in the bible to describe the character of beings or people and even whole nations. Its pretty interesting actually.

On the talking donkey...why couldn't God make a donkey He created talk? Its one of the passages Christians enjoy joking around about alot....not that we doubt it, its just such a funny thing to image in our minds!

Athene: Belief that the bible is inerrant because the bible says so is slightly naive don't you think? Let me put this another way . . . if a person doesn't believe the bible is inerrant then using proof texts to 'proove' inerrancy is not going to make the slightest bit of difference.
Now . . . Is this verse God breathed?
1Tim 5:23 No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for your stomach's sake and your frequent infirmities.

The wine stomach verse is my favorite, to me reading it, it sounds like advice from one friend to another, I can imagine Timothy saying to Paul that he's suffering from stomach upsets and Paul giving him some advice, nearly 2000 years later we now know not to give people with stomach upsets wine due to the fact that wine contains acid which would cause stomach upset. So is this Paul giving some advice based on the medical knowledge of the time, or does God know absolutely nothing about human physiology?

Well since God created us He knows excatly how our bodies work...of course! In fact there are quiet a few passages about the human body in the bible and as time has gone by science has been slowly learned enough to realize what the bible said on a certain health issue was indeed correct! For instance it was alll over the news that a health study was done showing the benefits of wine...including with upset stomachs! Of course they also say, getting drunk, drinking too much WILL damage organs in the body just as the bible also warns about...it warns against being a drunk. But two glasses of red wine and even some white wines have huge health benefits.

Here is one website on it.

http://nutrition.about.com/od/guestarticles/a/healthandwine.htm
The Health Benefits of Wine

A scientific team in Denmark was the first to uncover the remarkable phenomenon that, on average, the French consume about 30% more fat than Americans in the form of cheeses, butter and meat. However, the French have far lower cholesterol levels than Americans and a startlingly 40% fewer heart attacks. The researchers found the moderate and daily consumption of red wine was the missing link in the American diet.

In research that has been reproduced and expanded upon throughout the world, it has been confirmed that the nutrients, minerals, vitamins and immune system boosters that are contained within red wine can add-up to substantial long-term health benefits - especially for individuals at risk for heart disease as the result of a high fat, high cholesterol diet. New research is beginning to uncover the presence of powerful antioxidants in red wine, including veratrole and catechin among others, that are known to reduce blood clotting, reduce risk of heart attacks, and even help combat some forms of cancer.


It aids in digestion, stimulates the appetite and combats neurodegenerative diseases such as Parkinson’s and Alzheimer’s. It has even been found to help combat both Anorexia and Obesity.


White wine, like red wine, has significant anti-inflammatory properties derived from appropriate levels of tyrosol and caffeic acid. Because the process that creates white wine retains many of the antioxidants that are found in red wine, it is also important for its anticancer qualities, as well as its ability to improve blood circulation and increase oxygen supply.


I picked out just a few things in that article...there is alot more if you care to go to the link...or do your own search even. Here is a link to quiet a few websites on the health benefits of wine: http://search.yahoo.com/search?ei=utf-8&fr=slv1-&p=health+benefits+of+wine

Casstranquility: There is no judgment in love.

I am wondering if you have any children? or have any experience in taking care of children. Kids are like a blank slake in many ways, they don't seem to 'just know' not to do certain things...like run in the street, not touch something hot, not play with knifes, not take things from other children and so forth. For a parent to beable to do a good job they have to disciple them...which means make judgements. You for instance know certain things are wrong to do...a child does not...and a little baby that is crawling around and grabbing for something that could hurt them, do not know what 'no' means...so no matter how many times you say, no, they will keep doing it. But first you have to make a judgement about what they are doing before you can make the desion to say no.

You have to decide if what they are grabbing for may hurt them...later when they are older and doing something wrong, such as smacking their brother or sister...or biting them (alot of little ones go through this stage of biting), you know its wrong, but they don't. So you have to make a judgment call, right? Biting someone else hurts...and can lead to a dangerous infection if the break the skin requiring medical treatment. Now you cannot isolate this child from everyone in the world including yourself to avoid them biting anyone..so what do you do?

In love you make a judgment call and disciple them for biting...this may mean time out, having to go to their room for awhile...etc...

They are simply too young to reason with too....a child cannot understand.."See how you made your brother or sister cry! You hurt them!" congitively they cannot 'image being someone else. They really cannot understand they have infliced pain on someone else. If you say, "How would you like it if someone bit you like that?" they will scream and cry thinking someone is going to do an injustic to them! But cannot 'see' they are doing an injustic to someone else.

So in order to teach them right from wrong you have to pass judgment on what they are doing...and set rules and guidelines of what they can and cannot do. God set commandments for us to prevent us from hurting each other and ourselves. In order for Him to do this, He had to judge what was right and what was wrong. Do you agree on that?