A Violent God?

[Martinez]

I'm not assuming that, I'm stating that wine stimulates stomach acid production which is generally not desired when one has a stomach upset, unless of course the problem is too little stomach acid . . . but of course we can't assume that was the problem either.

BTW I noticed that a large part of the articles you linked too were published by wine making sites, or sites which promote wine sales, slightly spurious don't you think? There is increasing evidence to suggest that the alleged health beneifts of wine may be simply down to the fact that wine drinkers have healthier lifestyles then beer or spirit drinkers.

Wine benefits?
Wine benefits2?
http://www.jsonline.com/alive/news/jun05/332789.asp

Look, there are many more problems that can occur other than just those that have to do with stomach acids.

look, what you are trying to dispute here is a well know fact,

just get over it already!

 

[whitestar]

Cassie I am not feeling very well this evening so I am not going to get into everything on your posts tonight...too tired. Just a couple of things here..

You said there was no sin, so I asked you if murder was ok by you then and you didn't seem to understand what I was asking. Murder is a sin. But since you believe there is no sin then those doing the murdering have done nothing wrong? is that right? Do you think the muders in prison should be let go to continue murdering or not and if they shouldn't be let go, why not?

Uh, no. I believe God is all gods-including the Christian perception. I do belive Jesus was the Son of God, as I am God's Daughter. I don't believe He died for our sins-unless He died to save us from the illusion of separation. Yes, rose from the dead. No, doesn't sit at the right hand of the Father. And not in heaven, unless we have some means of determining what heaven is. No judgment. I use the word Christian in my icon because I believe in Jesus, I believe in God, I believe in Love.

So Jesus just died for an illusion? Does that really make any sense? An illusion is not real...if people were blinded in some way spiritually couldn't Jesus, being God, simply remove that blindness as He removed the physical blindness from those without sight...I mean why in the world would He have to go through the torture He did just to remove something that wasn't even real in the first place?

He was beaten, mocked, beat, spit on, whipped until He was so bloody and swollen you couldn't tell who He was! Then a robe place on raw bleeding skin...a crown of thorns to mock Him and forced to carry a cross for who knows how long before finally being nailed to it and left for dead! That is an awful lot for someone to go through for something that isn't real to begin with, don't you think?

If your truth your God and my truth of God are not the same, but yet both 'true' how can that be possible? Especially when both our views conflict so badly with each other...

Only one can be the right one. God speaks to me too and He lines up quiet well with what the bible says about Him actually. I knew God long before I knew the bible...so I didn't form an image of God FROM the bible first by any means. So one of us is getting the wrong message I would say because God can only be one thing...if He was different for each person, then the goal of reaching this higher spiritual plane of becoming God would be chaos...and no one would reach it.

 

[Athene]

Look, there are many more problems that can occur other than just those that have to do with stomach acids.

look, what you are trying to dispute here is a well know fact,

just get over it already!

You keep harping on about well known facts, is that meant to impress me? What is this well known fact that you keep going on about?

 

[Casstranquility]

Cassie I am not feeling very well this evening so I am not going to get into everything on your posts tonight...too tired. Just a couple of things here..

I hope you feel better.

You said there was no sin, so I asked you if murder was ok by you then and you didn't seem to understand what I was asking. Murder is a sin. But since you believe there is no sin then those doing the murdering have done nothing wrong? is that right? Do you think the muders in prison should be let go to continue murdering or not and if they shouldn't be let go, why not?

Murder is not okay by me. Though it would not be 'wrong' or 'sinful' to commit murder, it would not be out of Love-it could only occur if one didn't see that we are all united. I don't support that. I want people to realize they are One with everyone else. They can't do that through murder.
Continuing to murder would not help them, nor us, I would not say that murderers should be let out of prison unless they are fully rehabilitated.

So Jesus just died for an illusion? Does that really make any sense? An illusion is not real...if people were blinded in some way spiritually couldn't Jesus, being God, simply remove that blindness as He removed the physical blindness from those without sight...I mean why in the world would He have to go through the torture He did just to remove something that wasn't even real in the first place?

Yes, it makes perfect sense. Sin is an illusion. Of course He could have, but as people are always saying, that would remove one's free will to come upon the knowledge themselves. I don't know. I've tried asking Christians why Christ went through torture when He didn't have to, and I've never gotten any satisfactory answers.

That is an awful lot for someone to go through for something that isn't real to begin with, don't you think?

Yes, it is. But, we cannot be sure that He felt any pain.

If your truth your God and my truth of God are not the same, but yet both 'true' how can that be possible? Especially when both our views conflict so badly with each other...

I didn't say they were both true. I said we both have different 'truths'. These being relative things.

Only one can be the right one. God speaks to me too and He lines up quiet well with what the bible says about Him actually. I knew God long before I knew the bible...so I didn't form an image of God FROM the bible first by any means. So one of us is getting the wrong message I would say because God can only be one thing...if He was different for each person, then the goal of reaching this higher spiritual plane of becoming God would be chaos...and no one would reach it.

Apparently God wanted you to be a Christian. Neither of us is getting the wrong message. We are both getting the right message according to our spiritual selves, for our growth. Some people cannot grow spiritually on certain paths. That is why there is more than one.
I have not said we are going to become God. I say that we are already God. God is supposed to be different for each person. As long as we are unique, individual beings, we will be separated by our beliefs. God cannot reach out to everyone in exactly the same way. It goes against Nature.

 

[whitestar]

Sorry I got so slowed up on replies to this thread..back flaring up...

You said there was no sin, so I asked you if murder was ok by you then and you didn't seem to understand what I was asking. Murder is a sin. But since you believe there is no sin then those doing the murdering have done nothing wrong? is that right? Do you think the muders in prison should be let go to continue murdering or not and if they shouldn't be let go, why not?

Cassie:
Murder is not okay by me. Though it would not be 'wrong' or 'sinful' to commit murder, it would not be out of Love-it could only occur if one didn't see that we are all united. I don't support that. I want people to realize they are One with everyone else. They can't do that through murder.
Continuing to murder would not help them, nor us, I would not say that murderers should be let out of prison unless they are fully rehabilitated.

Cassie: Yes, it makes perfect sense. Sin is an illusion.

Cassie you are not making sense here....first you say in another reply there is no such thing as sin..then you agree murder is a sin and wrong, then you go back to sin is an illusion.

What excatly do you think an illusion is? Maybe the confusion here is how you define that word...most people think it means something that is not real...like your eyes playing tricks on you when you look at something. How do you define it? Sin/murder is either real or not. Real people really kill others...there is a read dead person...who's body stops working from being killed. They don't image they are dead....they are dead. There is medical evidence they are dead. No one shakes them and says, 'hey you aren't really dead, you just think you are...now wake up!'. They are really dead...they bury the real dead body...its not something we all image in our minds.

I looked up what illusion means on an online dictionary.

Main Entry: il·lu·sion
Pronunciation: i-'lü-zh&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French, from Late Latin illusion-, illusio, from Latin, action of mocking, from illudere to mock at, from in- + ludere to play, mock -- more at LUDICROUS
1 a obsolete : the action of deceiving b (1) : the state or fact of being intellectually deceived or misled : MISAPPREHENSION (2) : an instance of such deception
2 a (1) : a misleading image presented to the vision (2) : something that deceives or misleads intellectually b (1) : perception of something objectively existing in such a way as to cause misinterpretation of its actual nature (2) : HALLUCINATION 1 (3) : a pattern capable of reversible perspective

Do any of these fit your defination of what an illusion is? From what you are saying, you keep contradictingyourself...so I can't really understand what you are saying.

So Jesus just died for an illusion? Does that really make any sense? An illusion is not real...if people were blinded in some way spiritually couldn't Jesus, being God, simply remove that blindness as He removed the physical blindness from those without sight...I mean why in the world would He have to go through the torture He did just to remove something that wasn't even real in the first place?

Cassie: Yes, it makes perfect sense. Sin is an illusion. Of course He could have, but as people are always saying, that would remove one's free will to come upon the knowledge themselves. I don't know. I've tried asking Christians why Christ went through torture when He didn't have to, and I've never gotten any satisfactory answers.

Well if what He went through was an illusion as in not real...then I guess He didn't really died, let alone suffer. Which would mean He didn't rise from the dead or later go to Heaven either. If you think its all an illusion...which would mean, we aren't really here either. And there is no real God to look too for anything... Please define what you think illusion means.

Anyway...I am staying in the real world here.. To answer one of your other questions about whether Jesus rose from the dead in His real body or a spirit body: http://www.carm.org/questions/Jesus_spirit.htm Didn't Jesus simply rise in a non-physical, spirit form?

As far as why did Jesus suffer that much for us...is because He loves us THAT much!
http://www.whyprophets.com/prophets/atonement2.htm

That is an awful lot for someone to go through for something that isn't real to begin with, don't you think?

Cassie: Yes, it is. But, we cannot be sure that He felt any pain.

I honestly cannot believe you said that. Why in the world would you get the idea He didn't feel any pain? He was in a human body. He wasn't a doll that could feel nothing. If that were true, there would be no point in Him going through what He did....would there? Part of the reason Jesus went through what He did was so we could relate to Him. There are many in this world who are beated...for different reasons...do you ever watch the news? People abuse people all the time...those people CAN relate to what Jesus went through and KNOW God understands how they feel. And it wasn't just the physical pain He endured, but emotional pain too. He was mocked, spit on...horrible things said to Him...something, sadly people also do to each other too! If God had not presented part of Himself as human who could relate to Him? no one...He would be just some floating around invisable spirit that we could not begin to have a relationship with.

The rest of what you said, I am afraid I don't understand at all so I cannot comment on it...its very New Age stuff. By the way reincarnation would take away our free will...did you know that? By being forced to come back time and time again...not everyone wants to reach a higher spiritual level through God. They want to die and rot in the ground! I have actually heard people say that....they totally reject God...want nothing to do with Him and they would be screaming their free will was voilated if they had to be reincarnated. As a believer even I would say this would voilate our free will BIG time! I would be fight tooth and nail to not have to come back here and live all over again....once is hard enough! I would want to be in Heaven with God at the end of my life...not be forced back here over and over again. I would see that as being punished and it would be my idea of hell...

See if you think these links explain your views...these views you have really have been around for a long time: http://www.carm.org/nam/nawhatis.htm
http://www.carm.org/relativism/relativism_refute.htm

 

[Casstranquility]

Sorry I got so slowed up on replies to this thread..back flaring up...

I'll be praying for you.

Cassie you are not making sense here....first you say in another reply there is no such thing as sin..then you agree murder is a sin and wrong, then you go back to sin is an illusion.

Actually, I wrote: "Though it would not be 'wrong' or 'sinful' to commit murder". I haven't changed a thing.

What excatly do you think an illusion is? Maybe the confusion here is how you define that word...most people think it means something that is not real...

That's how I define it. Something that isn't real. Sin is a concept, not a thing. But, I'd like to discuss that with you in a PM, since I find you to be a nice person, and willing to discuss things with me.

No one shakes them and says, 'hey you aren't really dead, you just think you are...now wake up!'.

Well, you know Jesus could have. And He said that others could too. So, you never know, perhaps they really are just sleeping...

2 a (1) : a misleading image presented to the vision (2) : something that deceives or misleads intellectually b (1) : perception of something objectively existing in such a way as to cause misinterpretation of its actual nature

Do any of these fit your defination of what an illusion is? From what you are saying, you keep contradictingyourself...so I can't really understand what you are saying.

That does somewhat describe how I see an illusion. I haven't contradicted myself yet, but I may do so.

Anyway...I am staying in the real world here..

Alright. But, I have been wanting to leave for a long time.

http://www.whyprophets.com/prophets/atonement2.htm

I honestly cannot believe you said that. Why in the world would you get the idea He didn't feel any pain?

Because He didn't have to. He had the power over His mind and body that could prevent Him from feeling pain.

If that were true, there would be no point in Him going through what He did....would there?

Actually, yes...but it's hard for me to explain.

If God had not presented part of Himself as human who could relate to Him? no one...He would be just some floating around invisable spirit that we could not begin to have a relationship with.

You are right about us not being able to relate to God if not through a human. Though I do not think God is an invisible spirit...being a pantheist and all.

By the way reincarnation would take away our free will...did you know that? By being forced to come back time and time again...

No, I didn't know that...but I didn't say one is forced to reincarnate. I think one has a choice whether to reincarnate or not.

I would want to be in Heaven with God at the end of my life...not be forced back here over and over again.

Then you can. I, however, would like to reincarnate.

-Cassie

 

[Casstranquility]

See if you think these links explain your views...these views you have really have been around for a long time:

No, they don't really explain my views since I do actually know that there's an absolute truth. And, I don't belong to the NAM, though it does describe a few of my beliefs. But, a site that tries to refute other people's ideas isn't really the best place to get information about another person's ideas.

 

[Martinez]

No, they don't really explain my views since I do actually know that there's an absolute truth. And, I don't belong to the NAM, though it does describe a few of my beliefs. But, a site that tries to refute other people's ideas isn't really the best place to get information about another person's ideas.

That is true!

I've been to sites for and against universalism, and the ones that are against don't have a clue.
they make so many false accusations against it and say that that's what we believe (usually not true)
and then they present arguements against those false beleifs,
and then they go, "look how easily it's refuted!"

not to mention that alot of them practicaly resort to childish name calling!

 

[whitestar]

No, they don't really explain my views since I do actually know that there's an absolute truth. And, I don't belong to the NAM, though it does describe a few of my beliefs. But, a site that tries to refute other people's ideas isn't really the best place to get information about another person's ideas.

Actually I linked you to that on purpose..that is a Christian site...I wanted you to see the comparasion to the two beliefs...that is why I linked the Christian refuting those ideas...so you could get a balanced view of both sides! Does that make sense?

Cassie:
Murder is not okay by me. Though it would not be 'wrong' or 'sinful' to commit murder, it would not be out of Love-it could only occur if one didn't see that we are all united. I don't support that. I want people to realize they are One with everyone else. They can't do that through murder.
Continuing to murder would not help them, nor us, I would not say that murderers should be let out of prison unless they are fully rehabilitated.

Ok I misread it...that is what I get for getting on here when I am tired... At any rate if you don't think murder is wrong, why would you think they should stay in prison until they are fully rehabilitated? I don't understand that.

No one shakes them and says, 'hey you aren't really dead, you just think you are...now wake up!'.

Well, you know Jesus could have. And He said that others could too. So, you never know, perhaps they really are just sleeping...

Jesus brought dead people back alive...not sleeping people though...big difference as you know a sleeping person's heart is still beating...in a dead one, its not.

Anyway...I am staying in the real world here..

Cassie:
Alright. But, I have been wanting to leave for a long time.

I would want to be in Heaven with God at the end of my life...not be forced back here over and over again.

Then you can. I, however, would like to reincarnate.

I don't understand...you want to leave, but want to come back through reincarnation...can you explain please? If you want to leave, why would you want to come back? You do think God is only here, where we are at now? And where would you be coming back from in your reincarnation?

I think you are nice too.

God bless

 

[Casstranquility]

Actually I linked you to that on purpose..that is a Christian site...I wanted you to see the comparasion to the two beliefs...that is why I linked the Christian refuting those ideas...so you could get a balanced view of both sides! Does that make sense?

Yes, but, it wasn't very balanced.

Ok I misread it...that is what I get for getting on here when I am tired... At any rate if you don't think murder is wrong, why would you think they should stay in prison until they are fully rehabilitated? I don't understand that.

Because, why would I want people who don't care about themselves or anyone else running around? They are ignorant of the nature of things. Rehabilitation could bring them back to their sense of love for other beings.

Jesus brought dead people back alive...not sleeping people though...big difference as you know a sleeping person's heart is still beating...in a dead one, its not.

You and Jesus have different ideas on sleep. Jesus Himself said that they were just sleeping.

I don't understand...you want to leave, but want to come back through reincarnation...can you explain please? If you want to leave, why would you want to come back?

I want to continue the learning process. Or remembering process..or whatever it is. I want to leave my present 'reality'.

You do think God is only here, where we are at now?

God is everywhere.

And where would you be coming back from in your reincarnation?

I'm afraid I have to ask you to rephrase that question. I don't understand it.

 

[Maynard Keenan]

Wow!

How do you think you would go at running the universe?

If God didn't absolutely have to do it that way, I'm sure He wouldn't have.
considering He gets no plesure from the death of the wicked.

Then why, in egypt, didn't he just let the Jews go. Why did he harden Pharaoh's heart and then kill thousands of innocents. Every firstborn. That included many BABIES who had never committed an evil act. For what? To prove that he could? Why did God command genocide as the Jews entered the promised land? What did God or the Jews gain by slaughtering babies? In the great flood, how many totally innocent people died? Even if EVERY adult was corrupt, there would be the babies, too young to be corrupt. If I killed for the reasons given in the bible you'd call me evil.

 

[Martinez]

Then why, in egypt, didn't he just let the Jews go. Why did he harden Pharaoh's heart and then kill thousands of innocents. Every firstborn. That included many BABIES who had never committed an evil act. For what? To prove that he could? Why did God command genocide as the Jews entered the promised land? What did God or the Jews gain by slaughtering babies? In the great flood, how many totally innocent people died? Even if EVERY adult was corrupt, there would be the babies, too young to be corrupt. If I killed for the reasons given in the bible you'd call me evil.

Well, I'm sure I don't know!

I do however have scripture that tells me that God take no pleasure in the deaths of the wicked, let alone little babies!

It doesn't say however why He did it that way, which is why the bible says!

"Lean not unto your own understanding"

get it?
we don't have all the facts, so there's no way we can possably know why God did that. that's where trust come into the equation!
We trust that because He can see everything with perfect clarity and has infinate wisdom, He will do what is best!

 

[Balder11]

Well, I'm sure I don't know!

I do however have scripture that tells me that God take no pleasure in the deaths of the wicked, let alone little babies!

It doesn't say however why He did it that way, which is why the bible says!

"Lean not unto your own understanding"

get it?
we don't have all the facts, so there's no way we can possably know why God did that. that's where trust come into the equation!
We trust that because He can see everything with perfect clarity and has infinate wisdom, He will do what is best!

That's one way of looking at it. Another would be to say that humans did it and then ascribed their activity, self-righteously, to God's will. Or perhaps religious leaders used the trump card of "God's will" to get people to do something horrendous, or at least to help them justify it to themselves.

 

[Martinez]

That's one way of looking at it. Another would be to say that humans did it and then ascribed their activity, self-righteously, to God's will. Or perhaps religious leaders used the trump card of "God's will" to get people to do something horrendous, or at least to help them justify it to themselves.

Yeah that would be one way,but I woudn't say that as I'm not a liberal!