A small rapture?

[Guojing]

Typically, Pretribbers define "Jacob's Trouble" as the chastisement of Israel in the "Great Tribulation," ie the time of Antichrist's rule. I do think Israel has been going through "Great Tribulation" for 2000 years now, and many Jews have been completely rejected by God. Others, throughout history, have turned to Jesus for their Eternal Hope. Overall, this Tribulation has been a form of national chastisement.

But many Jews simply have remained steeped in their Rabbinic Judaism or in Agnosticism, and continue to suffer their "Lostness" until it is time for God to return His attention to saving the Israeli nation. God has not focused on saving Israel *as a nation* up until now because it has been time to reach out to other nations, to give them the same chance that Israel was given, to be in covenant relationship with God.

But now that the nations have had the opportunity to embrace the Gospel for their own nation, it is time for God to return to restoring Israel as a nation. The Christian nations have fallen into decline, much as ancient Israel did. So Jesus is getting ready to return. We can be ready by choosing to live by his righteous spirit, instead of by our own carnal instincts.

But when we are called upwards to heaven, I believe the earth will remain mortal, and Israel only then will have the opportunity to become a Christian nation. Christians who are called to immortality will certainly leave something behind. That is what I'm curious about--what kind of impact that will make?

So my question is, from scripture, how are you connected to Jacob in any way?

 

[Oseas]

I'll choose not to respond to this, since it may be your honest assessment, but is also obviously designed to ridicule honest questions.

If we receive the witness of men, the witness of GOD is greater-1John 5:9.

 

[Unqualified]

Tribulation is NEVER equated with God's Wrath in the bible.

The Wrath of God is not declared until Revelation 6:17, after the 6th seal. In the 5th seal, the Martyrs are asking how long will God withhold judgement on the Earth.. That is, no wrath up until that point.
6th seal.. people know the wrath of God is coming.
... and then there are saints in heaven having come OUT of great tribulation.

so logic.. if the wrath of God just started, and fits the signs of Matthew 24:29, which are AFTER the tribulation, and the saints are having come OUT of great tribulation... then what Jesus referred to as great tribulation, is not the wrath of God.
Tribulation first, THEN Jesus comes, THEN wrath of God.

Wrath is mentioned in Rev 6:16 also. But they Are both talking about the rest of the chapter. All the seals are obvious wrath. Who could kill that many and cause that much trouble but God. It’s tribulation. It may not be the GT but it is wrath. This is what will be stopped by the anti christ for six months the the wrath will continue as he starts warring against Christians.

They run they freak out because they see the wrath is here.

you guys post tribbers have changed everything and gone against hope. It’s like you quit believing in a merciful God. You stopped believing in the hope the comfort of those words in 1 Thes. 4. You have changed the wrath to post trib and not the GT, where wrath is mentioned 13 times in revelation. Gods angered has built for a long time and He is going to get it all OUT. Not just by one act. That has to happen after judgment anyway.

Why would God beat up His bride right before His marriage and supper. We don’t deserve it but it’s all of Him and not of us. You’ve been listening to @keras too long. You have lost the meaning of some scriptures and taken up with others. Are you right this time?

 

[RandyPNW]

If we receive the witness of men, the witness of GOD is greater-1John 5:9.

The character by which you share your opinions does not convince me it is the "witness of God." But believe what you will. I'm happy to answer any question, as long as the question comes from a place of respect.

 

[Oseas]

Wrath is mentioned in Rev 6:16 also. But they Are both talking about the rest of the chapter. All the seals are obvious wrath. Who could kill that many and cause that much trouble but God. It’s tribulation. It may not be the GT but it is wrath. This is what will be stopped by the anti christ for six months the the wrath will continue as he starts warring against Christians.

They run they freak out because they see the wrath is here.

you guys post tribbers have changed everything and gone against hope. It’s like you quit believing in a merciful God. You stopped believing in the hope the comfort of those words in 1 Thes. 4. You have changed the wrath to post trib and not the GT, where wrath is mentioned 13 times in revelation. Gods angered has built for a long time and He is going to get it all OUT. Not just by one act. That has to happen after judgment anyway.

Why would God beat up His bride right before His marriage and supper. We don’t deserve it but it’s all of Him and not of us. You’ve been listening to @keras too long. You have lost the meaning of some scriptures and taken up with others. Are you right this time?

The WRATH of my GOD also is showed in Revelation 11:15-18; Here GOD reveals -the Word is GOD - the why of His WRATH: -->15 ...The kingdoms OF THIS WORLD (the current Devil's world, now he is called the red Dragon-Revelation 12:9-12.Take a look.) ARE BECOME THE KINGDOMS OF OUR LORD, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever. 18 And the nations were (WILL BE) angry, and thy WRATH is come(GOD's WRATH. GOD is already pouring out His wrath upon the Devil's world), and the time of the dead, that they should be Judged, and that GOD should give reward unto His servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear His name, small and great; and should destroy them which destroy the earth. (It's a consequence oF GOD's WRATH).

Revelation 12:9-12:

9 And the great Dragon (the red Dragon) was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our GOD, and the power of His Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our GOD day and night.

11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens (HEAVENS? Ephesians 1:3-8 combined with Philippians 3:20-21), and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth(ISRAEL) and of the sea(PEOPLES, AND NATIONS, AND MULTITUDES OF all TONGUES)! for the Devil(THE GREAT RED DRAGON) is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Similarity between passing by the Red Sea and by the Red Dragon

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ - PUT THIS IN YOUR MIND ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ - THE RED SEA AND THE RED DRAGON ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I believe you know that the Hebrews had to cross the Red Sea, and walk through a desert, walk until they got to the Promised Land after 40 years of...

purebibleforum.com

 

[Oseas]

The character by which you share your opinions does not convince me it is the "witness of God." But believe what you will. I'm happy to answer any question, as long as the question comes from a place of respect.

I believe in my Lord JESUS, He said: John 8:47 - He that is of GOD heareth GOD's words: ...

 

[JulieB67]

believing in the hope the comfort of those words in 1 Thes. 4.

When Paul states "comfort one another with these words" he's talking about their passed away loves ones. That was the original subject starting with verse 13. He's not comforting them with words about a pretrib rapture.

I Thessalonians 4:13 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope."

I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

He goes on to explain Christ's return and says comfort one another with these words -meaning as he stated in verse 13 that ye sorrow not as others which have no hope. Christ will bring those that are asleep in Christ with him.

 

[John Lamb]

I'm wondering if maybe the real Rapture will be unlike how the Pretrib movies portray it? Jesus said that when he comes will he find faith on the earth? This means that though Nominal Christianity is ubiquitous and common, genuine born again Christianity will not be so apparent, and may not exist as such except in dark corners of the earth.

If so, the Rapture may be more of an unseen event, as though happening when most of the world is hunkered down in bomb shelters during a nuclear war, rather than driving cars and piloting planes. If you look at the account of Elijah's "Rapture" he is even searched for, being that the event is far more subtle than a large-scale disappearance.

Perhaps the real Rapture will be confined to much smaller numbers in a time when religion is on the way out, and born again Christianity is so marginalized that it is no longer part of the mainstream? This may be a ways off, but the way things are going now I can see it happening. Large groups of Christians are being exposed as frauds, and antiChristianity is taking over the world, pushing true Christians out of the way. Your thoughts?

2 Kings 2.9 When they had crossed, Elijah said to Elisha, “Tell me, what can I do for you before I am taken from you?”
“Let me inherit a double portion of your spirit,” Elisha replied.
10 “You have asked a difficult thing,” Elijah said, “yet if you see me when I am taken from you, it will be yours—otherwise, it will not.”
...16 “Look,” they said, “we your servants have fifty able men. Let them go and look for your master. Perhaps the Spirit of the Lord has picked him up and set him down on some mountain or in some valley.” “No,” Elisha replied, “do not send them.”

There‘s absolutely no point of a post-trib rapture of any size. That’s why it is pre-trib. False prophets haven’t dented the worldwide numbers of Christians which is projected to grow further if there was more time.

 

[Jamdoc]

Wrath is mentioned in Rev 6:16 also. But they Are both talking about the rest of the chapter. All the seals are obvious wrath. Who could kill that many and cause that much trouble but God. It’s tribulation. It may not be the GT but it is wrath. This is what will be stopped by the anti christ for six months the the wrath will continue as he starts warring against Christians.

Man can. We could kill off almost the entire species in a matter of weeks triggered by an event that would take a couple of hours, and it'd be over but too late to save billions. Hundreds of millions would die from the immediate effects of the blasts, and over a billion would die in the resulting weeks from acute radiation sickness and famine.... and that's with a limited nuclear exchange. If we unloaded our entire arsenals it just might kill off the entire species. The famine is not caused by naturally not being able to grow food, it's caused by hyperinflation also, it's a manufactured famine.

and as I pointed out, the 5th seal martyrs ask how long until God judges the world. How long until His wrath avenges them?
Nope, none of the first 4 seals are God's wrath, all of them act through men, not God. If anything it's God removing restraints on us so that we do the wicked things we've always wanted to do on impulse.... but were held back by doing by God.
We've had a couple of nuclear holocaust close calls, where 1 man was restrained by God from launching even though he had orders to launch.

They run they freak out because they see the wrath is here.

you guys post tribbers have changed everything and gone against hope. It’s like you quit believing in a merciful God. You stopped believing in the hope the comfort of those words in 1 Thes. 4. You have changed the wrath to post trib and not the GT, where wrath is mentioned 13 times in revelation. Gods angered has built for a long time and He is going to get it all OUT. Not just by one act. That has to happen after judgment anyway.

It is a merciful God, but He never promised to prevent persecution, rather He promised we'd be persecuted by the nations, and that He would give us testimony that would convict them. That is the point of Christians going through great tribulation. It is to give testimony in the worst possible conditions, because that is what it takes to convince some to repent.

by the way the comfort of the words in 1 Thessalonians 4 is not "pretrib rapture" it's regarding those who have already died in Thessalonica, the comfort was that they would be resurrected, and we'd be reunited when Jesus returns.

God promised to save us from His wrath (which is from the 6th seal to the 7th trumpet in 1 narrative, and from Revelation 14:14 to Revelation 16 in the 2nd narrative, same times told in different details), not from other people.

Why would God beat up His bride right before His marriage and supper. We don’t deserve it but it’s all of Him and not of us. You’ve been listening to @keras too long. You have lost the meaning of some scriptures and taken up with others. Are you right this time?

He doesn't. Men do.

The narrative that persecution comes before deliverance is throughout the whole bible and is in the examples that Jesus gave us, the Days of Noah, and the Days of Lot. Noah and Lot were not protected from persecution and scoffing and mocking, they were rescued just before God rained fire and brimstone on Sodom or flooded the world while Noah was on the Ark.

 

[RandyPNW]

There‘s absolutely no point of a post-trib rapture of any size. That’s why it is pre-trib. False prophets haven’t dented the worldwide numbers of Christians which is projected to grow further if there was more time.

Thanks for your opinion. I don't agree, but I would expect Pretribbers would protest. No problem--my home church is all Pretrib.

 

[Unqualified]

Thanks for your opinion. I don't agree, but I would expect Pretribbers would protest. No problem--my home church is all Pretrib.

it’s only your opinion too. I agree to disagree. It is a matter of interpretation. You deny me, I deny you. But what are you doing in a pretrib church and not believing what they teach? Makes little sense.

 

[Jamdoc]

There‘s absolutely no point of a post-trib rapture of any size. That’s why it is pre-trib. False prophets haven’t dented the worldwide numbers of Christians which is projected to grow further if there was more time.

there's no point of a post-wrath rapture, but there is a point of a post trib-pre wrath rapture, if you understand what tribulation actually is biblically.
The bible never promises we won't be persecuted, and that's what tribulation is, it's persecution.
Noah and Lot were left to be mocked and threatened and persecuted, but when God was going to do the destroying? They were protected, taken out of harm's way.

 

[RandyPNW]

I believe in my Lord JESUS, He said: John 8:47 - He that is of GOD heareth GOD's words: ...

John 8.13 The Pharisees challenged him, “Here you are, appearing as your own witness; your testimony is not valid.”....54 Jesus replied, “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing.

You must think you are Jesus?

 

[RandyPNW]

it’s only your opinion too. I agree to disagree. It is a matter of interpretation. You deny me, I deny you. But what are you doing in a pretrib church and not believing what they teach? Makes little sense.

It's a mark of spirituality not to insist on your own way. Fighting over doctrine is repulsive if we can't place fellowship over disagreements on peripheral, non-essential doctrines.

When I came out of my formal religious upbringing, the spiritual life I found was among people who were like Irving and Darby. They sought religious reform in a place where Premillennialism had been dismissed and revelation had been marginalized in favor of a kind of dry scholasticism.

I've chosen fellowship among such people, even if some of their beliefs are not in accord with Scriptures. They focus on the Holy Spirit, which is central to me, along with His power to display in the midst of His Church.

In time, every new church movement, to revive and to reform, falls into dryness. And we have to be prepared to move where the Spirit leads. God will take care of any peripheral errors over time.

 

[Jamdoc]

It's a mark of spirituality not to insist on your own way. Fighting over doctrine is repulsive if we can't place fellowship over disagreements on peripheral, non-essential doctrines.

When I came out of my formal religious upbringing, the spiritual life I found was among people who were like Irving and Darby. They sought religious reform in a place where Premillennialism had been dismissed and revelation had been marginalized in favor of a kind of dry scholasticism.

I've chosen fellowship among such people, even if some of their beliefs are not in accord with Scriptures. They focus on the Holy Spirit, which is central to me, along with His power to display in the midst of His Church.

In time, every new church movement, to revive and to reform, falls into dryness. And we have to be prepared to move where the Spirit leads. God will take care of any peripheral errors over time.

I think my motivation stems from 2 prongs: valuing truth over an erroneous belief no matter how attractive it is, and because pretribs finding themselves in persecution might shipwreck their faith because they've placed their faith in this idea that God would never let anything bad happen to them.

but He does. All the time.
He let His Son get crucified.
He lets many Christians get martyred, for His own glory and to grow the Church, because no profession of faith, no testimony, no "God saved me out of drug addiction" story, is more convincing, than dying for Jesus when offered the opportunity to reject Jesus and spare their life.

But if your faith is "God would never let me suffer" and you find yourself suffering and being persecuted.. what then?

Matthew 13

18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

 

[Guojing]

I think my motivation stems from 2 prongs: valuing truth over an erroneous belief no matter how attractive it is, and because pretribs finding themselves in persecution might shipwreck their faith because they've placed their faith in this idea that God would never let anything bad happen to them.

but He does. All the time.
He let His Son get crucified.
He lets many Christians get martyred, for His own glory and to grow the Church, because no profession of faith, no testimony, no "God saved me out of drug addiction" story, is more convincing, than dying for Jesus when offered the opportunity to reject Jesus and spare their life.

But if your faith is "God would never let me suffer" and you find yourself suffering and being persecuted.. what then?

Matthew 13

How are you connected to Jacob?

 

[John Lamb]

Thanks for your opinion. I don't agree, but I would expect Pretribbers would protest. No problem--my home church is all Pretrib.

With your belief, won’t you be watching out for the Beast and his mark in an empty church building?

 

[Oseas]

John 8.13 The Pharisees challenged him, “Here you are, appearing as your own witness; your testimony is not valid.”....54 Jesus replied, “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing.

You must think you are Jesus?

No, you are saying that.
My Lord JESUS left very clear, saying: Matthew 10:24-25 & 28: --> 24 The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord. 25 It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. 28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

 

[Guojing]

With your belief, won’t you be watching out for the Beast and his mark in an empty church building?

Well said, that is the main reason why the early Acts church, who are waiting the millennial kingdom to begin at any time (Acts 1:6-8). obeyed Jesus's command in Luke 12:32-33 literally (Acts 2:44-45, Acts 4:32, James 5:1-6).

Those who claim to believe in post trib, don't want to follow that command. It shows how serious they hold that belief.

 

[Jamdoc]

How are you connected to Jacob?

Romans 11
we're grafted in.

Revelation 12

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.