A small rapture?

[RandyPNW]

That was a good point, there surely must be some Christian pilots around in years time when the rapture is to take place then. My voice, God, gave me the word “Pilot plant” recently. All words I get need interpreting and for the life of me I haven’t been able to work it out, until now that is. God the almighty will put an Angel in their seat when the rapture takes place.
I thought God was going to make me a Pilate (English pronunciation) plant somewhere in the distant futur, in another epoch, scary.

Sorry John, I don't know anything about "pilot plants!" But I did used to accompany my Dad in his club's Cessna on occasion.

 

[RandyPNW]

Well, my thoughts is, there won't be any Christian pilots piloting planes when the rapture happens, or doing any important jobs in the world at that point. Great tribulation will result in Christians either preaching the end of the world until they are caught or killed, being imprisoned, or martyred, or on the run. It won't be life like normal for Christians. It'll be life like normal for unbelievers.

The Days of Noah, and the Days of Lot. That's our two examples, and Jesus gave us absolutely layered comparisons, not just 1 facet of those days but multiple.
and one of those facets is how believers were treated (mocked, persecuted) vs how the unrighteous were living (like everything was normal)

So ultimately while there will be planes flying when Jesus comes back, the Christians being caught up will be on the run, or in prison, or be mocked and seen as a crazy person preaching the end of the world while everyone thinks they're nuts and that Christians are the only thing wrong with the world and everything's great without them.

Kind of my thoughts, as well. There are Scriptures that indicates that people will be sort of normal, marrying and giving in marriage, etc. So that seems like business and life will be as normal.

On the other hand, we are told things will get bad in the world, and in particular for Christians. Christians in the early Roman Empire opted out of the military a lot because it was so pagan. So perhaps Christians will be somewhat withdrawn at the time of the 2nd Coming?

Elijah was given sort of a warning that he was leaving. Born Again Christian pilots may likewise have a sense that something Big is coming!

 

[RandyPNW]

Have faith , there are people in foreign countries that have such a gift that they can endure whatever it takes.

There are people in *whatever country* who have faith to endure. We have no choice if we wish to be faithful. But that wasn't the question...

if your talking about the USA, God will make away. But if you are talking post trib than maybe a few will go. But during the GT itself millions previously on the fence will die for the faith, to get to heaven. God is merciful.

During any where, and on whatever side you are on, innocent and righteous people die. There are victims of "friendly fire." There is collateral damage. There are accidents.

And quite frankly, God brings judgment down on wicked towns, even knowing that some will be killed simply because they live there--not because they are the ones bringing down the judgment.

For sure, in the time of Antichrist's Reign in Europe, many Christians in Europe will die from persecution. Antichrist will put them to death as seditionists. But the question was asking, What about Christians who are alive and remain at Christ's Coming. They will leave their homes or their places of employment, or their vacation spots, etc. and will possible be in the midst of operations they play a crucial role in. How can God extract them without doing harm to those left behind?

Do you think we should all die faithless. The way of escape is to die in the trib. But the faithful won’t have to go through it. Rev 7:9-14. Why else would you want to be comforted by these words in Thessalonians. And the scripture that we are not appointed to wrath. Rom 5:9. Saved from wrath. Pretrib In a nutshell.

The words in Thessalonians are comforted in the fact we have Eternal Life, and this has nothing to do with escaping tribulation and persecution. The Thessalonians were well aware of what persecution was. And instead of encouraging them that they will escape it, they were praised for enduring it.

We are not appointed to the 2nd Death, to Eternal Wrath. That is the Wrath we are to escape from--not persecution and tribulation. Christians are called to be faithful in that!

 

[Oseas]

Some of your points are legitimate, but I can't agree at all with your conclusions. I don't think "those that are left" to be caught up to heaven are those who died and arose "like Lazarus."

Your comment above is very important and enlightening. 1Thess. 4:15-17
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of GOD: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them...to meet the Lord...and so shall we ever be with the Lord.(NOTE:The CLOUD is the same was appeared in Acts 1:9-11.
Take a look. And the AIR, it is the 3rd heaven-Revelation 4:1)

To die is to be with the Lord instantly, and not to "remain until the Coming of the Lord." As Elijah's own "Rapture" was a hard to see event, I'm wondering if the Church at Jesus' Coming will be somewhat rare in light of all of the Antichristianity?

Again: 1Thes.4:17 - we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them...to meet the Lord...and so shall we ever be with the Lord.(The CLOUD is the same was appeared in Acts 1:9-11. And the AIR, it is the 3rd heaven-Revelation 4:1 combined with 2Corinthians 12:2-4.)

Though you're right that "the earth" often implies the land of Israel, I don't think it's so in this case. The apostasy orchestrated by Antichrist, in Dan 7, suggests a large part of the earth follows in his apostasy against God.

Revelation 13:3- - I saw one of his (7) heads as it were wounded to death(wounded by a Sword-the Word of GOD-Re.13:verse 14); and his deadly wound was healed: (healed? how? was healed because the dragon-the red Dragon-Revelation 12:3-4 - gave him his Power, and his Seat(in Jerusalem, spiritually called Sodom and Egypt) and great Authority), and ALL THE WORLD wondered (will wonder) after the beast - (that is the Beast of sea, a religious and satanic MONSTER having 7 heads and 10 horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his(7) heads the name of blasphemy, this religious systems makes part of the red Dragons's body-Revelation 12:3-4).

Even today, true Christianity seems to be severely weakened, and I fear for succeeding generations, if not our own! So many so-called "Christians" are purely nominal, and not born again. If Jesus comes when Christianity is so degraded perhaps those "who are left" will be relatively few in number and somewhat out of the mainstream. Like Elijah their disappearance may not even make the news!

Matthew 25:1-6 - 6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. (who's going? I'm sure only them which have oil).

The question is: Who is going to meet JESUS?

See, IT'S NOT ENOUGH to just have lamp-the Word of GOD-a lamp for the feet-Psalm 119:105; It's necessary also to have oil, otherwise the lamp will go out, if it hasn't already the lamp of many people gone out for good, but at midnight? In full darkness and terrors by night? Terrible, very terrible.

MIDNIGHT as the Lord said, it indicates the END of a Day(of a millennium) and the beginning of a new Day (of a new millennium) simultaneously. It is necessary to understand that GOD's clock does not stop, yeah, never stop, every thousand years there is a turn of Day, understand? As happened in Eden-Genesis 3:8-10- GOD found Adam and Eve completely naked, the clothe they made from the FigTree, one among other trees in the Garden, it was not enough to cover them from their nakedness. GOD needed to make an appropriate garment for that purpose. By the way, JESUS said through the book of Revelation, chap. 16: v.15: Behold, I come like a thief, Blessed is he that watches, and keeps his garments, lest he WALK NAKED, and they see his shame. (There will be WAR AGAINST three unclean spirits like frogs-Revelation 16:13-15. Why frogs?

Let us be ready

On the other hand, wanting to buy oil out of time, it's a total waste of time. Both those who will buy and those who are selling oil (Pastors, Bishops, Evangelists, among others) will lose their souls forever, for all Eternity. It's like the CURSE of the FigTree: JESUS cursed it never to bear fruit again, and the sentence was LITERALLY fulfilled. The Word is GOD, self-executing.

Get ready

Celebration of the Lamb's marriage? ONLY AFTER THE JUDGMENT OF BABYLON

According to GOD's Word, what needs to happen first? Exactly what is written in Revelation 18: 1 to 5, i.e. the Judgment of the Great harlot, as follows: 1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. (Note: This...

purebibleforum.com

 

[Oseas]

A lot of good points. My thought was that Christians piloting planes would go missing at the Rapture, leaving their planes to crash. That doesn't sound very God-like?? Any thoughts?

Ridiculous, besides that theory be a satanic fantasy.
2Peter 1:16 - For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of His Majesty.

Perhaps a world war that is nuclear might keep planes grounded in the preceding hours of that event? People may be hunkered down in anticipation of a great disaster. Cars and trucks off the road, Planes grounded.

Ridiculous, irrational, a satanic mockery to ridicule the brain capacity of believers.

On the other hand, there will not be a conventional WWIII.
Russia Preparing for War. (posts 233-234 and 238 (and 218)

Otherwise, it may be relatively few real Christians out and about. I know this sounds a little silly, but I do take the account seriously, and we do live in modern times. There are problems associated with a mass exodus of Christians from our planet.

The recently picture within the Churches as you have described above is spiiritually terrible, very terrible. Revelation 12:4 says that the red Dragon with his TAIL drew the third part of the stars of heaven(heaven? Ephesians 1:3-8.Take a look.), and did cast them to the earth : (Who are the TAIL of the red Dragon? In my prior post I said that the religious system of the MAN Beast of sea, one of his 7 heads will be mortally wounded by a Sword, this religious system is part of the body of the red Dragon(Rev.13:1 combined with Rev.12:3), but the TAIL of the red Dragon? who are them? Isaiah 9:15-16 reveals whom they are. Take a look and be careful.

Get ready for the only world WAR that will happen: Revelation 16:13-15 combined with Revelation 11:15-18.

If the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle? 1 Corinthians 14:8

 

[JulieB67]

Correct, but you still believe that He'll come at the end of supernaturally caused catastrophic events that would have even unbelievers claiming it's the end of the world.

No, I don't. I've never said that. I've always stated I believed that they will have bought into the fake peace and think their messiah has arrived and then the true Christ returns.

As for the days of Noah, you have to really go back and see just who was giving and taking in marriage which is food for thought as well..

But yes, only the believers will know what's going happen, I agree. The rest of the world will be completely shocked. Sadly many of these were probably believers as well but who fall away in the end. That's why the Foolish Virgins and those who claim to have cast out in Christ's name are turned away.

 

[Unqualified]

@RandyPNW so now there are two wrath’s it says all over revelation that the great trib is the wrath of God. What scriptures are you making up?

yes there was persecution when in the first century and Satan and Rome were fighting the young church and he didn’t prevail. All that other stuff about collateral damage and and righteous people dying on both sides that’s just a royal push a way. Christians are dying and will die Rev 7:9-14 they end up in heaven. Which you don’t believe in.

How can you say we are going to tribulation when the Bible says we are saved from wrath in the great trib. You have really stretched your imagination for that one. They go to the lake of fire in Rev. It’s all the wrath. We, we are not appointed to wrath. To good to be true?

Haven’t you heard it is the wrath of God where the four horsemen bring death and half of the population dies. It is his wrath on the world. Planes coming down will be a good sign of what’s to come. Not godly. Gods been holding his breath for something to change for almost 6000 years and now he is going to let it out in a righteous way all at once and a few people are going to get hurt. Are you such a bleeding heart that you can’t allow God to have his way in this. It’s just the beginning! Ridiculous.

 

[Jamdoc]

Kind of my thoughts, as well. There are Scriptures that indicates that people will be sort of normal, marrying and giving in marriage, etc. So that seems like business and life will be as normal.

On the other hand, we are told things will get back in the world, and in particular for Christians. Christians in the early Roman Empire opted out of the military a lot because it was so pagan. So perhaps Christians will be somewhat withdrawn at the time of the 2nd Coming?

Elijah was given sort of a warning that he was leaving. Born Again Christian pilots may likewise have a sense that something Big is coming!

It's more like, the entire world is going to turn against Christians, it'll become illegal, because what people will worship is the beast. When we're under the mark of the beast and people without it can't buy or sell, do you really think they'll be able to hold professions like airline pilots?
People may try to keep their faith secret but how are they going to get past the requirement to bear the mark? Being in a high profile job would get noticed and arrested first
now I'm not saying the vaccine was the mark, no, but just did you see people's attitudes towards having it or not having it? It's a kind of conditioning, a rehearsal, a requirement to have something to participate in normal society. We won't have that, we know the eternal cost of it. Not having the mark won't just let you not buy or sell, it means you won't be able to use public transportation, get through checkpoints and borders, get on airlines or ships or trains, get a hotel room, the list goes on and on. You will be an outcast, hated by all nations, for His name's sake.

I know you have some partial preterist/historicist views but the trajectory of the world is moving towards a futurist 70th week of Daniel.
The whole point of Jesus telling the signs is so that we know what's coming is coming. Not so it can happen 2000 years ago, and then nothing happen for 2000 years and just 1 day out of the blue Jesus returns.
For unbelievers, it's gonna maybe seem out of the blue. But for believers? They'll anticipate it because the world will go the direction the bible predicted.

So yeah, there won't be pilots suddenly disappearing because any Christian pilots will either be imprisoned, martyred, or on the run.
When Jesus comes back it's going to be delivering us from literally our darkest hour, at the time we most need Him... and avenging those who were killed for His name.

 

[Jamdoc]

@RandyPNW so now there are two wrath’s it says all over revelation that the great trib is the wrath of God. What scriptures are you making up?

yes there was persecution when in the first century and Satan and Rome were fighting the young church and he didn’t prevail. All that other stuff about collateral damage and and righteous people dying on both sides that’s just a royal push a way. Christians are dying and will die Rev 7:9-14 they end up in heaven. Which you don’t believe in.

How can you say we are going to tribulation when the Bible says we are saved from wrath in the great trib. You have really stretched your imagination for that one. They go to the lake of fire in Rev. It’s all the wrath. We, we are not appointed to wrath. To good to be true?

Haven’t you heard it is the wrath of God where the four horsemen bring death and half of the population dies. It is his wrath on the world. Planes coming down will be a good sign of what’s to come. Not godly. Gods been holding his breath for something to change for almost 6000 years and now he is going to let it out in a righteous way all at once and a few people are going to get hurt. Are you such a bleeding heart that you can’t allow God to have his way in this. It’s just the beginning! Ridiculous.

Tribulation is NEVER equated with God's Wrath in the bible.

The Wrath of God is not declared until Revelation 6:17, after the 6th seal. In the 5th seal, the Martyrs are asking how long will God withhold judgement on the Earth.. That is, no wrath up until that point.
6th seal.. people know the wrath of God is coming.
... and then there are saints in heaven having come OUT of great tribulation.

so logic.. if the wrath of God just started, and fits the signs of Matthew 24:29, which are AFTER the tribulation, and the saints are having come OUT of great tribulation... then what Jesus referred to as great tribulation, is not the wrath of God.
Tribulation first, THEN Jesus comes, THEN wrath of God.

 

[Jamdoc]

No, I don't. I've never said that. I've always stated I believed that they will have bought into the fake peace and think their messiah has arrived and then the true Christ returns.

As for the days of Noah, you have to really go back and see just who was giving and taking in marriage which is food for thought as well..

But yes, only the believers will know what's going happen, I agree. The rest of the world will be completely shocked. Sadly many of these were probably believers as well but who fall away in the end. That's why the Foolish Virgins and those who claim to have cast out in Christ's name are turned away.

Correct, but my point is that life is going to go into a state of normalcy for everyone but believers. We're going to go through basically the Holocaust but with modern technology, able to better track us and and keep us from blending into society
For us... we'll know this is nearing the time of Jesus' return, and so that's what keeps us going. For them? They're just going to be killing Christians and ridding the world of people who won't follow their god. They'll be thinking they're doing god a service.

So there will be passenger airlines
but Christians won't be the pilots.

World War 2 and the Holocaust are a great "dress rehearsal" for things in a lot of ways. A world war, a push for global unification, a great economic collapse, another world war, with a despot trying to kill all the Jews, rounding them up in camps, marking them so they couldn't participate in society, and exterminating them, followed by their deliverance, and return back to their land... which set up things for the real thing.

From this we can see that the wars necessary to trigger global unification will be a world war, possibly involving nuclear weapons, and that "Great Tribulation" is another attempt to purge the world of Jews, but this time followed by Christians

 

[RandyPNW]

It's more like, the entire world is going to turn against Christians, it'll become illegal, because what people will worship is the beast. When we're under the mark of the beast and people without it can't buy or sell, do you really think they'll be able to hold professions like airline pilots?
People may try to keep their faith secret but how are they going to get past the requirement to bear the mark? Being in a high profile job would get noticed and arrested first
now I'm not saying the vaccine was the mark, no, but just did you see people's attitudes towards having it or not having it? It's a kind of conditioning, a rehearsal, a requirement to have something to participate in normal society. We won't have that, we know the eternal cost of it. Not having the mark won't just let you not buy or sell, it means you won't be able to use public transportation, get through checkpoints and borders, get on airlines or ships or trains, get a hotel room, the list goes on and on. You will be an outcast, hated by all nations, for His name's sake.

Here in the US Biden's govt. has become somewhat dictatorial. And combined with their Social Agenda I can see in the near future the Govt imposing acceptance of corrupt social practices, including the embrace of corrupt religious and political ideals.

I know you have some partial preterist/historicist views but the trajectory of the world is moving towards a futurist 70th week of Daniel.

No, I don't hold to any form of Preterism nor any blanket Historicism, though I can understand why you become confused about that. Typically, Preterists believe that the Olivet Discourse and the AoD referred to the Roman incursion into Jerusalem 66-70 AD. I do believe that, but it is not strictly a Preterist belief, nor strictly a Historicist belief.

Rather, it is belief in a particular historical fulfillment of a particular prophecy. Obviously, prophecy of Jesus' 1st Coming is an historically-fulfilled prophecy, but is not necessarily Preterism, though Preterists and Historicists may believe that.

The Early Church Fathers largely believed that the Olivet Discourse and the AoD was fulfilled in the early generations of the Church--all except for the 2nd Coming, which Jesus set apart as something as yet unknown. As for the AoD itself, Jesus said it would all be fulfilled in his own generation, or in the generation of his Apostles.

So please do not call me a Partial Preterist, nor an Historicist. Not true at all. Those are not my labels, not my eschatological system. I'm clearly a Futurist, believing in a future Antichrist, and in a future Millennial Age. The book of Revelation is largely about 3.5 years of Antichristian rule at the end of this present age.

The whole point of Jesus telling the signs is so that we know what's coming is coming. Not so it can happen 2000 years ago, and then nothing happen for 2000 years and just 1 day out of the blue Jesus returns.

On the contrary, Jesus was warning the Israel of his own day of an earth-shaking change about to happen to them. If the Prophets covered the Assyrian and the Babylonian assaults, Jesus could hardly have ignored the fairly imminent event of Rome's 70 AD invasion!

So Jesus gave early warning signs, which he called "birth pains." But instead of the Kingdom of Messiah being born, the result would be basically a still-born child. The leaves would come out on the tree in the Spring, but there would be no fruit. Instead, the tree would be cut down.

The green leaves would not see an immediate fulfillment. The Kingdom would come only many years in the future following a long Diaspora of the Jewish people, a punishment Jesus called the "Great Tribulation." Yes, that is the proper use of the term, "Great Tribulation!"

For unbelievers, it's gonna maybe seem out of the blue. But for believers? They'll anticipate it because the world will go the direction the bible predicted.

So yeah, there won't be pilots suddenly disappearing because any Christian pilots will either be imprisoned, martyred, or on the run.
When Jesus comes back it's going to be delivering us from literally our darkest hour, at the time we most need Him... and avenging those who were killed for His name.

Yes, that's what Paul taught in 2 Thes 1. Jesus is coming back an angry man and an angry God. He will reward those of us who have endured in our testimony. And he will punish those who tried to push us over the edge. Thanks.

 

[RandyPNW]

Tribulation is NEVER equated with God's Wrath in the bible.

The Wrath of God is not declared until Revelation 6:17, after the 6th seal. In the 5th seal, the Martyrs are asking how long will God withhold judgement on the Earth.. That is, no wrath up until that point.
6th seal.. people know the wrath of God is coming.
... and then there are saints in heaven having come OUT of great tribulation.

so logic.. if the wrath of God just started, and fits the signs of Matthew 24:29, which are AFTER the tribulation, and the saints are having come OUT of great tribulation... then what Jesus referred to as great tribulation, is not the wrath of God.
Tribulation first, THEN Jesus comes, THEN wrath of God.

Yes, tribulation is tribulation and wrath is wrath. Sometimes the meaning of the words become intertwined because they cover similar territory. But words are flexible and must be interpreted by context, and not by only one fixed application of a word.

A fixed application of a word is called a "technical application," and we're not dealing with that always with the words "tribulation" and "wrath." But there are common uses of these words. "Wrath" commonly refers to the final burst of divine judgment that leads to eternal punishment. In fact, "Wrath" can refer to Eternal Punishment.

For example, in the Battle of Armageddon God pours out a final judgment upon those gathered in international warfare at the end of the age. Since this is aimed primarily at the forces of Antichrist as a punishment this Tribulation is designed to be a form of Wrath intended to lead to Eternal Wrath as well, or Eternal Judgment.

By contrast, "Tribulation" can refer to harsh circumstances experienced by believers as a test to their faithfulness or by unbelievers as a punishment for their wicked ways. The "Great Tribulation" is applied in Luke 21 by Jesus to refer to an age-long pounishment of the Jewish People we now call "the Jewish Diaspora."

Some identify the "Great Tribulation" as the "Reign of Antichrist," although I don't see that specific correlation in the Bible. We may use those words, however, if that's the context in which we wish to describe it.

 

[RandyPNW]

Ridiculous, besides that theory be a satanic fantasy.

Ridiculous, irrational, a satanic mockery to ridicule the brain capacity of believers.

I'll choose not to respond to this, since it may be your honest assessment, but is also obviously designed to ridicule honest questions.

 

[Jamdoc]

Here in the US Biden's govt. has become somewhat dictatorial. And combined with their Social Agenda I can see in the near future the Govt imposing acceptance of corrupt social practices, including the embrace of corrupt religious and political ideals.

No, I don't hold to any form of Preterism nor any blanket Historicism, though I can understand why you become confused about that. Typically, Preterists believe that the Olivet Discourse and the AoD referred to the Roman incursion into Jerusalem 66-70 AD. I do believe that, but it is not strictly a Preterist belief, nor strictly a Historicist belief.

Rather, it is belief in a particular historical fulfillment of a particular prophecy. Obviously, prophecy of Jesus' 1st Coming is an historically-fulfilled prophecy, but is not necessarily Preterism, though Preterists and Historicists may believe that.

The Early Church Fathers largely believed that the Olivet Discourse and the AoD was fulfilled in the early generations of the Church--all except for the 2nd Coming, which Jesus set apart as something as yet unknown. As for the AoD itself, Jesus said it would all be fulfilled in his own generation, or in the generation of his Apostles.

So please do not call me a Partial Preterist, nor an Historicist. Not true at all. Those are not my labels, not my eschatological system. I'm clearly a Futurist, believing in a future Antichrist, and in a future Millennial Age. The book of Revelation is largely about 3.5 years of Antichristian rule at the end of this present age.

But that is a partial preterist view, that the Great Tribulation and 70th week of Daniel, Antichrist, etc was all fulfilled in the past and that the only thing left is for Jesus to suddenly appear without warning.

That is basically textbook partial preterism.

But I challenge any such view with Jesus' statement that the generation would witness ALL these things before passing away.
which included His second coming. If you crop the second coming out of "ALL these things" to force it to fit the first century it's like trying to fit a square peg through a round hole.

Paul said we wouldn't know the day or hour but we'd be able to anticipate that day, we wouldn't be caught unaware. But a 2nd coming with no preceeding signs would catch literally everyone unaware. But Jesus gave signs, and those signs are only useful if they immediately precede the second coming.

On the contrary, Jesus was warning the Israel of his own day of an earth-shaking change about to happen to them. If the Prophets covered the Assyrian and the Babylonian assaults, Jesus could hardly have ignored the fairly imminent event of Rome's 70 AD invasion!

The thing about prophecy is that a lot of patterns repeat. They get fulfilled multiple times. That's what can throw a lot of people off track. It's like with Daniel 8, people think that was all fulfilled in the past, but Gabriel said this is an end times vision, he stressed it multiple times that it was about the final indignation. So no it was not fulfilled by Alexander the Great. Alexander the Great showed a pattern of what it would be like...but he didn't fulfill it exactly, and so what that should point out, is that it will be fulfilled exactly in the future, but something similar to what we did see, would be what to look for. But people who look at the past foreshadowing "fulfillment" will say okay that's done, and then try to speculate what will happen around the time of the end on their own.

But what I'm saying is.. the bible actually tells us how it'll play out (though it can be difficult to fit the pieces together into a timeline or anything like that). So I know something LIKE Alexander the Great will happen, more specifically, I'm waiting for Iran's second "horn" that is more powerful than the first to rise up (which I would speculate being their 12th Imam) and for them to start attacking their neighbors in force, and then say Turkey since I see less likely that Greece would be in such a position but Turkey is, and Turkey is Sunni and Iran Shi'a... Turkey would get enraged and go to war against Iran and win, and then start conquering itself, decrepit failed states like Syria, Lebanon, and Iraq and Iran.
I expect this because it's what the bible says will happen in the end times, and I don't accept that something that happened before Jesus was born to count.

But that's a tangent, what I'm saying in regards to 70AD was it showed a pattern, something that when the early church in Judea saw it happen they knew to follow Jesus' instructions, but, while they may have been expecting Him to return, things didn't play out exactly as described, this was a localized conflict, not a globe spanning conflict, and the Romans were after the Jews rather than the Christians specifically at that time. So it points that there will still be a fulfillment of the Olivet Discourse, this time it will be global, and this time we will specifically be hated because of Jesus, not because of a Jewish revolt.

So Jesus gave early warning signs, which he called "birth pains." But instead of the Kingdom of Messiah being born, the result would be basically a still-born child. The leaves would come out on the tree in the Spring, but there would be no fruit. Instead, the tree would be cut down.

The green leaves would not see an immediate fulfillment. The Kingdom would come only many years in the future following a long Diaspora of the Jewish people, a punishment Jesus called the "Great Tribulation." Yes, that is the proper use of the term, "Great Tribulation!"

Yes, that's what Paul taught in 2 Thes 1. Jesus is coming back an angry man and an angry God. He will reward those of us who have endured in our testimony. And he will punish those who tried to push us over the edge. Thanks.

the leaves weren't even green in the first century. The tree was going to be withered. That is what 70AD was, the withering of the fig tree.

What Jesus was saying was that withered tree would bear leaves in the future. The tree had to be withered first, THEN bring forth new leaves to be a sign.

 

[WilliamLhk]

Sun and Moon darkening, tribes of the Earth mourning, and the elect gathered... and they're said to have come out of great tribulation. The Tribulation is over at that point. everything that follows isn't tribulation. It's something else.

The GT ends, and God's wrath begins. The GT is the early part of Satan's "great wrath" against believers Rev. 12:12.

 

[Jamdoc]

The GT ends, and God's wrath begins. The GT is the early part of Satan's "great wrath" against believers Rev. 12:12.

I see Revelation 12 as resetting Chronology, because i don't believe Jesus' first act after taking the Kingdoms of this world as His own is to give them back to Satan to give to the beast. Revelation 6 and Revelation 12-14 are parallel. 6th seal signs match up with Matthew 24:29, and Revelation 14 has the Son of Man on the clouds harvesting the earth.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

I was taught a Pretrib Rapture in the early 70s by friends and the church I began to attend. But I had been raised in church from birth where no such thing ever existed. Since this was new to me, and held by all my new Christian friends, I thought Pretribism was the way to go.

Hal Lindsey had written a book called "The Late Great Planet Earth," and was taking the "world by storm." Lindsey was out of Dallas Theological Seminary, I believe, where they all taught Dispensationalism, which contains Pretrib Doctrine.

So I watched the movies that depicted Christians suddenly disappearing, leaving their cars and planes unattended, and maybe even leaving their clothes behind. And the world "left behind" seemed caught unprepared and unaware of what just happened.

So the world came up with some idea to explain how so many people ended up disappearing--perhaps an alien invasion? And they then proceeded to become terribly ungodly and antichristian since the Christians of the world had gone away, leaving backsliders and pagans in charge.

Not long after becoming Pretrib my brother started harping on me about the need to memorize Scripture. He had participated in Bill Gothard's course on Bible memorization and wanted to pass that on to me. After preaching to me for a half hour or so I decided maybe I should try to memorize some Scripture.

To my surprise memorization came easy for me. Before I knew it I had memorized a few entire books of the NT. 1 John, Colossians, and 2 Thessalonians were were I started. I probably memorized half of the book of Revelation before I got a stopped doing this.

In the process of memorizing 2 Thessalonians I realized that Paul was teaching *against Pretribism!* He said that the Rapture cannot take place until Antichrist is actually destroyed at the Coming of Jesus! And in his time Antichrist had not come yet.

From this point on I've been Postrib. I had a moment of doubt when I moved to S. CA in the mid-70s, after reading Chuck Smith's Commentary on the Revelation. But after some unusual circumstances I was led, I believe, back to full acceptance of Postrib Doctrine, and determined never again to doubt what my 2 eyes are telling me!

I say all this to explain this post. I still believe a Rapture will happen. But will it have the same strange phenomena happen as with the Pretrib scenarios, with people disappearing and the world left trying to explain where people went? This seems all so mythical to me, so fable-like! I'm a bit embarrassed to present the Gospel with things so unlikely, though the resurrectiton is equally a miracle but far more likely in my thinking.

I'm wondering if maybe the real Rapture will be unlike how the Pretrib movies portray it? Jesus said that when he comes will he find faith on the earth? This means that though Nominal Christianity is ubiquitous and common, genuine born again Christianity will not be so apparent, and may not exist as such except in dark corners of the earth.

If so, the Rapture may be more of an unseen event, as though happening when most of the world is hunkered down in bomb shelters during a nuclear war, rather than driving cars and piloting planes. If you look at the account of Elijah's "Rapture" he is even searched for, being that the event is far more subtle than a large-scale disappearance.

Perhaps the real Rapture will be confined to much smaller numbers in a time when religion is on the way out, and born again Christianity is so marginalized that it is no longer part of the mainstream? This may be a ways off, but the way things are going now I can see it happening. Large groups of Christians are being exposed as frauds, and antiChristianity is taking over the world, pushing true Christians out of the way. Your thoughts?

2 Kings 2.9 When they had crossed, Elijah said to Elisha, “Tell me, what can I do for you before I am taken from you?”
“Let me inherit a double portion of your spirit,” Elisha replied.
10 “You have asked a difficult thing,” Elijah said, “yet if you see me when I am taken from you, it will be yours—otherwise, it will not.”
...16 “Look,” they said, “we your servants have fifty able men. Let them go and look for your master. Perhaps the Spirit of the Lord has picked him up and set him down on some mountain or in some valley.” “No,” Elisha replied, “do not send them.”

I was saved in 1971, and Lindsey's LGPE had a part in my conversation. I read the book shortly after it came out and was captivated by the message. I was a rapture-ite until 1980, when I began to be drawn away from the theory. Eventually, the scripture convinced me there was no "pre-trib" secret rapture; rather, we would all be "raised up on the last day" "at the last trump" "after the (great) tribulation of those days" "after the great falling away" after "the man of sin is revealed."

 

[Guojing]

I was taught a Pretrib Rapture in the early 70s by friends and the church I began to attend. But I had been raised in church from birth where no such thing ever existed. Since this was new to me, and held by all my new Christian friends, I thought Pretribism was the way to go.

Hal Lindsey had written a book called "The Late Great Planet Earth," and was taking the "world by storm." Lindsey was out of Dallas Theological Seminary, I believe, where they all taught Dispensationalism, which contains Pretrib Doctrine.

So I watched the movies that depicted Christians suddenly disappearing, leaving their cars and planes unattended, and maybe even leaving their clothes behind. And the world "left behind" seemed caught unprepared and unaware of what just happened.

So the world came up with some idea to explain how so many people ended up disappearing--perhaps an alien invasion? And they then proceeded to become terribly ungodly and antichristian since the Christians of the world had gone away, leaving backsliders and pagans in charge.

Not long after becoming Pretrib my brother started harping on me about the need to memorize Scripture. He had participated in Bill Gothard's course on Bible memorization and wanted to pass that on to me. After preaching to me for a half hour or so I decided maybe I should try to memorize some Scripture.

To my surprise memorization came easy for me. Before I knew it I had memorized a few entire books of the NT. 1 John, Colossians, and 2 Thessalonians were were I started. I probably memorized half of the book of Revelation before I got a stopped doing this.

In the process of memorizing 2 Thessalonians I realized that Paul was teaching *against Pretribism!* He said that the Rapture cannot take place until Antichrist is actually destroyed at the Coming of Jesus! And in his time Antichrist had not come yet.

From this point on I've been Postrib. I had a moment of doubt when I moved to S. CA in the mid-70s, after reading Chuck Smith's Commentary on the Revelation. But after some unusual circumstances I was led, I believe, back to full acceptance of Postrib Doctrine, and determined never again to doubt what my 2 eyes are telling me!

I say all this to explain this post. I still believe a Rapture will happen. But will it have the same strange phenomena happen as with the Pretrib scenarios, with people disappearing and the world left trying to explain where people went? This seems all so mythical to me, so fable-like! I'm a bit embarrassed to present the Gospel with things so unlikely, though the resurrectiton is equally a miracle but far more likely in my thinking.

I'm wondering if maybe the real Rapture will be unlike how the Pretrib movies portray it? Jesus said that when he comes will he find faith on the earth? This means that though Nominal Christianity is ubiquitous and common, genuine born again Christianity will not be so apparent, and may not exist as such except in dark corners of the earth.

If so, the Rapture may be more of an unseen event, as though happening when most of the world is hunkered down in bomb shelters during a nuclear war, rather than driving cars and piloting planes. If you look at the account of Elijah's "Rapture" he is even searched for, being that the event is far more subtle than a large-scale disappearance.

Perhaps the real Rapture will be confined to much smaller numbers in a time when religion is on the way out, and born again Christianity is so marginalized that it is no longer part of the mainstream? This may be a ways off, but the way things are going now I can see it happening. Large groups of Christians are being exposed as frauds, and antiChristianity is taking over the world, pushing true Christians out of the way. Your thoughts?

2 Kings 2.9 When they had crossed, Elijah said to Elisha, “Tell me, what can I do for you before I am taken from you?”
“Let me inherit a double portion of your spirit,” Elisha replied.
10 “You have asked a difficult thing,” Elijah said, “yet if you see me when I am taken from you, it will be yours—otherwise, it will not.”
...16 “Look,” they said, “we your servants have fifty able men. Let them go and look for your master. Perhaps the Spirit of the Lord has picked him up and set him down on some mountain or in some valley.” “No,” Elisha replied, “do not send them.”

One key is to understand the term "Jacob's trouble".

Are we connected to Jacob in any way?

 

[RandyPNW]

One key is to understand the term "Jacob's trouble".

Are we connected to Jacob in any way?

Typically, Pretribbers define "Jacob's Trouble" as the chastisement of Israel in the "Great Tribulation," ie the time of Antichrist's rule. I do think Israel has been going through "Great Tribulation" for 2000 years now, and many Jews have been completely rejected by God. Others, throughout history, have turned to Jesus for their Eternal Hope. Overall, this Tribulation has been a form of national chastisement.

But many Jews simply have remained steeped in their Rabbinic Judaism or in Agnosticism, and continue to suffer their "Lostness" until it is time for God to return His attention to saving the Israeli nation. God has not focused on saving Israel *as a nation* up until now because it has been time to reach out to other nations, to give them the same chance that Israel was given, to be in covenant relationship with God.

But now that the nations have had the opportunity to embrace the Gospel for their own nation, it is time for God to return to restoring Israel as a nation. The Christian nations have fallen into decline, much as ancient Israel did. So Jesus is getting ready to return. We can be ready by choosing to live by his righteous spirit, instead of by our own carnal instincts.

But when we are called upwards to heaven, I believe the earth will remain mortal, and Israel only then will have the opportunity to become a Christian nation. Christians who are called to immortality will certainly leave something behind. That is what I'm curious about--what kind of impact that will make?

 

[RandyPNW]

I was saved in 1971, and Lindsey's LGPE had a part in my conversation. I read the book shortly after it came out and was captivated by the message. I was a rapture-ite until 1980, when I began to be drawn away from the theory. Eventually, the scripture convinced me there was no "pre-trib" secret rapture; rather, we would all be "raised up on the last day" "at the last trump" "after the (great) tribulation of those days" "after the great falling away" after "the man of sin is revealed."

Don't get me wrong--I credit LIndsey with the great impact he made on our generation! Great evangelist's heart, and had the ability to communicate across the religious lines to the secular world. People from all areas ate up what he had to say, almost like Nostradamus.

Lindsey did not claim to be a prophet, but much that he said had merit and still does. His "Common Market" prediction is not far from the idea of the European Community, which I believe is accurate. The EU will be the heart of the Antichristian Empire, in my opinion.

I made a full commitment to Christ from my weak form of Christianity in December of 1970. So we're part of the same era. Jesus People were all over the West Coast, and we had our own little Jesus People movement up in the Pacific NW .

Yes to Postrib.... I went to Melodyland Christian Center in Anaheim, CA. Ralph Wilkerson was such a good pastor. He invited any legitimate ministry to operate in his church complex. Sunday Mornings you could attend Bible Studies with either Hal Lindsey or Walter Martin. As far as eschatology goes, Martin was Postrib, and Lindsey was Pretrib. But Martin and Lindsey were friends nonetheless.