A simple fix for the Transgender issue.

[Kylie]

The pronouns they wish are gender pronouns. I don't use gender pronouns.

So you refuse to refer to other people the way they wish?

I wish to be address using feminine pronouns; she, her, etc. Will you not use those pronouns when talking about me? What will you use instead?

 

[Kylie]

I appreciate that but this still doesn't stop women feeling uncomfortable with sharing a private space like a toilet with a male who identifies as a women and still has male genitals.

I've used public toilets many times, and I can assure you that never once have I seen the genitals of any of the other women who were in there at the time. So why would this even be an issue?

The same problem happens even more so in women's gyms and dressing rooms. Sports is another area that is a problem in that men who transition to women can have greater strength. Women feel that it is unfair and unsafe. there are more cases coming up which are proving a dilemma. A transgender male is taking a number of female only beauty salons to the anti-discrimination commission because the women refuse to do a Brazilian when the person still has male genitals.

You do realise that the hormone therapy that is used in transitioning reduces physical strength, yes? Being a trans woman isn't just a man in a dress, something many people don't seem to understand.

These situations are going to come up as this is applied to practical situations in society. The law allows for a male to claim they are a female even if they keep their male genitals

Because being a woman isn't about what you've got between your legs.

 

[stevevw]

I've used public toilets many times, and I can assure you that never once have I seen the genitals of any of the other women who were in there at the time. So why would this even be an issue?



You do realise that the hormone therapy that is used in transitioning reduces physical strength, yes? Being a trans woman isn't just a man in a dress, something many people don't seem to understand.



Because being a woman isn't about what you've got between your legs.

 

[stevevw]

Kylie said: ↑
I've used public toilets many times, and I can assure you that never once have I seen the genitals of any of the other women who were in there at the time. So why would this even be an issue?

I think most of the women who said they felt uncomfortable in the survey were talking more about the idea of having a person with male genitals in the same toilet while they were going. I think to pretend that there is no issue is trying to force women or men for that matter to be in a situation that is uncomfortable.

I mean imagine if it was the other way around and a women identifying as male went into the men's toilet. Take it a step further and imagine a girl identifying as a boy went into the men's toilet. There would be an outcry and these are the real situations we have to sort out if this policy becomes the norm in mainstream society where transgender people will be allowed to do everything a non-transgender person can do. You are forgetting other situations like female dressing rooms and female only gyms. I think women would feel uncomfortable and so would the person transitioning.

You do realize that the hormone therapy that is used in transitioning reduces physical strength, yes? Being a trans woman isn't just a man in a dress, something many people don't seem to understand.

It is not as simple as that. What about adult male who have had a lifetime of developing muscle mass and strength or even worse what about a male athletes who have trained their body to peak fitness and then transition. It is a bit late for hormone suppressing therapy then. Most people transition well after they bodies have developed and to think that we need to push young people into transitioning before they develop when they cannot be in a position to properly decide these things is wrong.

Besides strength is only one aspect of being a male. If the male has gone through puberty there are permanent changes that happen which cannot be reduced through hormone therapy. Males are on average taller, have longer limb reach, faster, have smaller hips, broader shoulders etc. All these traits give an advantage over a women especially in the contact sports like boxing, rugby, netball and basketball. Transgender women hold a number of records in track and field which will never be broken by women. I think this is unfair and in contact sports unsafe.

Transgender women are dominating women's sports across a number of fields and I would say this is because of their male attributes so any hormone therapy is not reducing their ability. So in the future we could see males not only dominating men's sports but women's as well. For a women who would dedicate their life to training as an elite athlete this would be a turn off and totally unfair. Why would they try to be the best women in their field when they could never beat a male who is capable of reaching levels beyond what they could ever reach.

Because being a woman isn't about what you've got between your legs.

The question needs to be asked is any part about being a women about a persons biological sex? If it is not about biological sex then what else is it about?

 

[Ken-1122]

So you refuse to refer to other people the way they wish?

I wish to be address using feminine pronouns; she, her, etc. Will you not use those pronouns when talking about me? What will you use instead?

I will use pronouns according to your biology, not your gender as currently defined.

 

[Ken-1122]

You do realise that the hormone therapy that is used in transitioning reduces physical strength, yes? Being a trans woman isn't just a man in a dress, something many people don't seem to understand.

It reduces strength a little, but not to the extent of that of a woman. It would be like a man using Anabolic Steroids his entire life, then he goes off steroids for a few years and comparing his strength to that of a man who has never used steroids in his life.

 

[Moral Orel]

I disagree! A few years back a friend of mine won a large sum of money playing the lottery; his emotional outburst of excitement was totally rational. When I had my car broken into by a thief, my emotional rage and anger was rational; I would say most emotions people display are completely rational

Did you and your friend come to a well reasoned decision to have your emotional outbursts, or did you just "pop"? You were being irrational. Having a reason that would cause most folk to feel the same way isn't the definition of "rational".

I have no doubt their feelings are real, I just believe they are unjustified in and should not be catered to. As the point was made earlier; if I were anorexia but saw myself as fat, I should not be catered to and have everybody around me claiming I need to lose more weight in order to make me feel better. If I weighed 800 lbs and were in denial that I was obese, I should not be catered to and have everybody around me telling me I don't need to lose weight because it makes me feel better. A sweet lie should not take the place of the bitter truth, just because it makes someone feel better.

We've already established that trans folk aren't deluded about their biology, so your analogy isn't apt.

Perhaps they need to be told their idea of gender is wrong.

Why? It's just a word. People use words differently all the time. You need to show me how using gender to mean an internal feeling is harmful to someone somehow in order for anyone to think that we shouldn't use it in a way that your personal feelings disapprove.

There is no such a thing as feeling like a Nick. If you believe there is, and it is causing you problems, you need to be told your idea of feeling like a nick is wrong.

I don't have a problem with it because you're fine with catering to my delusion. That's the point.

That is absurd! Eugene is not associated with nerdiness. the only Eugene is know was a bouncer at a night club and he was a very big and intimidating guy

It is though. Your personal anecdote aside, Eugene is associated with nerdiness. Someone asked for nerdy names on another forum, check out the answers. "Eugene" shows up several times. Plus a lot of other names that are associated with nerdiness.

Nerdy names for guys?

We could come up with other things that are associated with certain names and find stereotypes too. It doesn't matter that there's no rational reason to associate one set of letters with a personality type. People do it.

Biological women (trans men) believe there are specific cultural roles for women and other roles for men and the female roles don't apply to them; they feel more comfortable in the roles they believe that apply to men thus they claim they identify as men. Just because you don't feel comfortable in the roles you believe women are supposed to fit into doesn't mean you are not a woman; and they need to be told that their roles they impose on women is wrong and not fitting into those roles doesn't mean you aren't a woman

"Cultural roles"? Like cooking and cleaning for women and working on cars for men? No. It's about masculinity and femininity. Some behaviors and attitudes are associated with masculinity and some are associated with femininity. It isn't as though trans folk are the only ones who define "man" and "woman" based on these things either.

When my wife and I got together she already had a one year old boy. His "real" dad wasn't in the picture so I adopted him. You know what people like to say to me when I tell them that? "That's what a real man does, good for you". All kinds of folks. Liberal hippies like myself, and even ultra-conservative Christians that hate trans folk, doesn't matter, they define "Man" as being someone who takes responsibility, at least in part. It wasn't until some folks started wearing different clothes that people got all up in arms about "Being a man means you have a penis!". But they'll still say things like what they tell me about being a man.

So why not use gender to refer to masculinity and femininity instead of exclusively referring to biological sex? It's already normal, and it wasn't trans folk who started using it that way, so it's already a common usage of the term.

Come to think of it, my little anecdote works on another level. Am I that kid's father?

Me: This is my son, Gabe. I adopted him when I married my wife.
You: So he's not really your son, is he?
Me: Sure he is. I raised him, I taught him how to read and write, how to be a good person, formed a relationship with him. You know, dad stuff.
You: All that other stuff is just how you define being a father. It isn't objective like biology and genetics, so you're suffering under the delusion that you are that boy's father. You aren't.
Me: I raised him since before he was even a year old. He calls me "Dad".
You: He shouldn't cater to your delusion like that. Everyone should say, "Step-Dad" or "Step-Father" when they refer to you. What's next? Are you going to tell his doctor the diseases and conditions that you're genetically predisposed to from your family history?! And while we're at it, is his name really "Gabe" or does it say, "Gabriel" on his birth certificate... hmmm?!

 

[hedrick]

This happened near where I live. Initially he did leave (which he didn't have to) only to return later during the youth swim. The police were never called because his claim was accepted.

The article is sufficiently vague that it's hard for me to draw conclusions on this event past the first part. I will say that I think it's probably best for legal recognition as transgender to require some formal process. States vary on just how they deal with this, but I think some kind of requirement is fairly common.

 

[Kylie]

The question needs to be asked is any part about being a women about a persons biological sex? If it is not about biological sex then what else is it about?

It's about their gender identity, which is in the person's head, not between their legs.

 

[Kylie]

I will use pronouns according to your biology, not your gender as currently defined.

That's extremely rude.

 

[Ken-1122]

Because being a woman isn't about what you've got between your legs.

Then what is it that makes you a woman? Imagination?

 

[Ken-1122]

That's extremely rude.

Why is it rude?

 

[Kylie]

Then what is it that makes you a woman? Imagination?

No, what makes me a woman is my gender identity, which is in my head. It is not in my genitals.

It's obvious to anyone that a person's sense of being a man/woman/other is not tied to what is between their legs. Take the case of David Reimer, who lost his penis in a botched circumcision and was raised as a girl. Unfortunately, his gender identity lived in his head, so even though he was raised as a girl, he still identified as male. He ended up killing himself due to depression.

 

[Ken-1122]

Did you and your friend come to a well reasoned decision to have your emotional outbursts, or did you just "pop"? You were being irrational. Having a reason that would cause most folk to feel the same way isn't the definition of "rational".

Actually it is. Rational = reasonable and logical

We've already established that trans folk aren't deluded about their biology, so your analogy isn't apt.

their delusion isn't about which body parts they have, it's about what it means to be a man or a woman

Why? It's just a word. People use words differently all the time. You need to show me how using gender to mean an internal feeling is harmful to someone somehow in order for anyone to think that we shouldn't use it in a way that your personal feelings disapprove.

Words have meanings. I'm not claiming it causes harm, I just think their reasons for believing they are a guy are wrong/inaccurate. If a woman wants to pretend she is a guy, fine; but don't try to force me to pretend.

I don't have a problem with it because you're fine with catering to my delusion. That's the point.

Nick and Nicholas are the same nam. Delusion would be; your name is Nicholas but you identify as a Steve because Steve's are good at basketball and you are good at Basketball

"Cultural roles"? Like cooking and cleaning for women and working on cars for men? No. It's about masculinity and femininity. Some behaviors and attitudes are associated with masculinity and some are associated with femininity. It isn't as though trans folk are the only ones who define "man" and "woman" based on these things either.

Masculinity does not make you a man, Femininity does not make you a woman

 

[Ken-1122]

No, what makes me a woman is my gender identity, which is in my head. It is not in my genitals.

It's obvious to anyone that a person's sense of being a man/woman/other is not tied to what is between their legs. Take the case of David Reimer, who lost his penis in a botched circumcision and was raised as a girl. Unfortunately, his gender identity lived in his head, so even though he was raised as a girl, he still identified as male. He ended up killing himself due to depression.

David Reimer was still a biological male. What is between your legs is usually determined by your biology.

 

[Moral Orel]

Actually it is. Rational = reasonable and logical

Throwing an emotional fit isn't being logical.

their delusion isn't about which body parts they have, it's about what it means to be a man or a woman

Then it isn't a delusion, it's a subjective opinion. You've got yours, they've got theirs. They aren't operating on false information like you said, they just have a different opinion about what the same information means.

Words have meanings. I'm not claiming it causes harm, I just think their reasons for believing they are a guy are wrong/inaccurate. If a woman wants to pretend she is a guy, fine; but don't try to force me to pretend.

Okay, no harm is noted, that's important. But besides that, you're just stating your opinion about how the words "man" and "woman" should be defined. You're entitled to your opinion, just don't pretend you're being objective because it's your opinion that we should define those words on objective things.

Like I pointed out already, we all already use things other than biology to define what a "man" or a "woman" is. This isn't new.

Nick and Nicholas are the same nam. Delusion would be; your name is Nicholas but you identify as a Steve because Steve's are good at basketball and you are good at Basketball

They aren't the same name. One has a 'k' and the other doesn't. One has four letters, one has eight. They sound similar, but they are not the same name. I don't identify with "Nicholas" and you're fine with calling me "Nick" because of that. My point stands. "Man" and "Woman" sound similar too.

Masculinity does not make you a man, Femininity does not make you a woman

Masculinity doesn't make you a biological male, and femininity doesn't make you a biological female, but that isn't the only way that people define "man" and "woman" and it ain't just trans folk who do it.

You forgot to tell me whether or not I'm a father. I'm just defining "father" based on cultural roles, not biology or genetics, so am I delusional?

 

[Kylie]

Why is it rude?

Because you are basically saying to people, "I don't care what pronouns you prefer, I will use the pronouns I think you should have."

You are putting your opinion above their wishes.

 

[Kylie]

David Reimer was still a biological male. What is between your legs is usually determined by your biology.

And the biology and what is between your legs does NOT determine your gender identity.

 

[Ken-1122]

Throwing an emotional fit isn't being logical.

Who said anything about throwing an emotional fit? Believe it or not, justifiable anger, or happiness is possible.

Then it isn't a delusion, it's a subjective opinion. You've got yours, they've got theirs. They aren't operating on false information like you said, they just have a different opinion about what the same information means.

That's because they've changed the meaning of gender; which is why I no longer use gender when addressing people

Okay, no harm is noted, that's important. But besides that, you're just stating your opinion about how the words "man" and "woman" should be defined. You're entitled to your opinion, just don't pretend you're being objective because it's your opinion that we should define those words on objective things.

I realize there are people who disagree with me, I'm just telling you why I no longer refer to Gender, and why I believe everybody else should do the same.

Like I pointed out already, we all already use things other than biology to define what a "man" or a "woman" is. This isn't new.

Actually using Gender this way is new.

They aren't the same name. One has a 'k' and the other doesn't. One has four letters, one has eight. They sound similar, but they are not the same name. I don't identify with "Nicholas" and you're fine with calling me "Nick" because of that. My point stands. "Man" and "Woman" sound similar too.

Poor analogy. In the English language; Nick is short for Nicholas. Man and Woman mean completely different things.

Masculinity doesn't make you a biological male, and femininity doesn't make you a biological female, but that isn't the only way that people define "man" and "woman" and it ain't just trans folk who do it.

I never said masculinity makes you a biological male; what are you talking about?

You forgot to tell me whether or not I'm a father. I'm just defining "father" based on cultural roles, not biology or genetics, so am I delusional?

How are you defining a father? Is a Father and a Daddy the same to you? What difference does it make? Are people losing their jobs because they refuse to refer to you as the father? Are there laws being enacted to make it illegal to refer to you as the Daddy instead of the father? Do you see this as the same as some of the legal repercussions of mis gendering someone?

 

[Ken-1122]

Because you are basically saying to people, "I don't care what pronouns you prefer, I will use the pronouns I think you should have."

No, I'm saying to people; your pronouns are referring to gender, I don't refer to gender.

You are putting your opinion above their wishes.

Not quite; I'm putting my right to use biology when I speak, above their wishes that I use gender as they define it.

And the biology and what is between your legs does NOT determine your gender identity.

It does for me; and I'm not alone with this.