A simple fix for the Transgender issue.

Ken-1122

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I've got a simpler fix.

If someone says they are a woman, then accept them at their word and address them as a woman. If someone says they are a man, then do likewise.
That has already been addressed. I already said if a person appears to be a man but tells me they are a woman, rather than inspect their underwear, I would assume they are a biological woman and address them accordingly (and visa versa). But this isn't good enough, because if the person tells me they are a Them, a Zi, or Xi I refuse to play that game thus our debate continues.
 
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Moral Orel

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Yes; Nick instead of Nicholas does not cater to mental delusion
Well, what makes it not a delusion? I don't feel like a "Nicholas" even though that is in fact my name. I feel like a "Nick" even though that is not in fact my name. I can't rationally explain what it means to feel like one name or another either. So what's the difference between feeling like a name, and feeling like a gender that you would say makes one delusional and not the other?
 
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Ken-1122

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Well, what makes it not a delusion? I don't feel like a "Nicholas" even though that is in fact my name. I feel like a "Nick" even though that is not in fact my name. I can't rationally explain what it means to feel like one name or another either. So what's the difference between feeling like a name, and feeling like a gender that you would say makes one delusional and not the other?
If you are going to claim there is a specific feeling associated with the name "Nick", you ARE delusional. People use a shorten version of their name because it's easier to say in casual conversation; not because of a specific feeling associated with the shorten version.
 
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Moral Orel

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If you are going to claim there is a specific feeling associated with the name "Nick", you ARE delusional. People use a shorten version of their name because it's easier to say in casual conversation; not because of a specific feeling associated with the shorten version.
No, I don't like it when people call me "Nicholas". It sounds too formal. People change their name all the time because they don't like the feeling of being referred to by whatever name they had. Some folks go by their middle name because of feelings. Abbreviation isn't the sole reason for using a different name than what you find on a birth certificate. So why do you cater to those delusions?
 
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RDKirk

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My concern is gender ideology is hijacking areas like medicine, psychology and law because of political correctness. I think that is a dangerous path to go down which can cause more harm than good.

I can agree with that.
 
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RDKirk

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That's OK until we come up against more testing situations where it is important to be sure a person is not just claiming that they are the opposite sex to who they are. This will happen in situations where there are specific requirements for one sex to be eligible such as rest rooms, gyms, medical situations, sports, etc. A male cannot just walk up and say they are a women and then get open access to places that women may occupy. This is the difficulty we are facing at the moment in how do we accommodate transgender people into main stream society. There is no clear cut process and we are discovering new dilemmas as we go.

I'm going to be interested in seeing how that plays out in women's sports. For several reasons, it's going to be more obvious in high school and college than at the professional level.

But there is the odd case of Caster Semenya, an African runner who was born organically female, but naturally has a Y chromosome that has caused her to produce much more testosterone than the average woman. In my opinion, this is like a man who is genetically disposed to be 8 feet tall going out for basketball, but the International Olympic Committee has ruled that she must take testosterone-suppressing drugs to compete as a woman.
 
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Ken-1122

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No, I don't like it when people call me "Nicholas". It sounds too formal. People change their name all the time because they don't like the feeling of being referred to by whatever name they had. Some folks go by their middle name because of feelings.
People go by shorten versions of their actual name for a variety of reason. But what are some of the feelings you associate with being called by your formal name as opposed to your shorten name, and what is the harm done to you when someone calls you Nicholas as opposed to Nick?
 
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Moral Orel

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People go by shorten versions of their actual name for a variety of reason. But what are some of the feelings you associate with being called by your formal name as opposed to your shorten name, and what is the harm done to you when someone calls you Nicholas as opposed to Nick?
People go by all sorts of things other than the name on their birth certificate, which is their only real name. Not just shorter versions of long names. Your standard of "delusion" is anything based on feelings, since you demand everything must be explained "rationally" to you. So why do you cater to people's personal feelings when it comes to proper names, but not pronouns? You don't get to snip my questions out of your quotes because you don't want to answer them. Why are you okay with catering to my "delusion" that my name is "Nick"?
 
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Ken-1122

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People go by all sorts of things other than the name on their birth certificate, which is their only real name. Not just shorter versions of long names.
True.
Your standard of "delusion" is anything based on feelings, since you demand everything must be explained "rationally" to you.
Untrue; I never said that. There are countless things based on feelings that I don’t consider delusional, and I don’t require everything to be explained rationally to me. I call Gender as currently define a delusion because I believe it is based on false information.
So why do you cater to people's personal feelings when it comes to proper names, but not pronouns?
I believe those pronouns are based on false information.
You don't get to snip my questions out of your quotes because you don't want to answer them. Why are you okay with catering to my "delusion" that my name is "Nick"?
It would be a delusion if you somehow convinced yourself your name was Nick when it was actually Nicholas. However, if due to your delusions you told me your actual name was Nick, I would assume that was your actual birth name just like if you were actual a woman and you told me you were a man; I would just assume you were one of countless biological women I’ve run into that look like men
 
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Moral Orel

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Untrue; I never said that. There are countless things based on feelings that I don’t consider delusional, and I don’t require everything to be explained rationally to me. I call Gender as currently define a delusion because I believe it is based on false information.
And you've said that you don't believe them because no one has been able to rationally explain it to you. Everything that is based on emotions is irrational by definition. If you're using the word "delusion" then you're acknowledging that they actually feel the way they do, so their feelings aren't being falsely reported to you by them.
It would be a delusion if you somehow convinced yourself your name was Nick when it was actually Nicholas. However, if due to your delusions you told me your actual name was Nick, I would assume that was your actual birth name just like if you were actual a woman and you told me you were a man; I would just assume you were one of countless biological women I’ve run into that look like men
But trans people don't think they have different biology than they actually do. They think that gender is, at least in part, an internal emotional thing, and they think that their biology doesn't match up with that internal emotional thing. If they actually thought their biology was that of the gender they identify with, they wouldn't seek surgery or hormone treatments, would they?

Just like I don't actually think the name on my birth certificate says, "Nick", but I don't feel like a "Nicholas" so I don't identify with that name. Think about other names that generally have stereotypical personalities assigned to them. "Eugene" is associated with nerdiness, typically. So if you met a fella who was a bodybuilding dummy, you might say, "You don't seem like a 'Eugene' to me".

So what's the "false information"? Trans women don't believe they have vaginas. Trans men don't believe they have penises. The feelings they have aren't false. Where's the falsehood?
 
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Kylie

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That's OK until we come up against more testing situations where it is important to be sure a person is not just claiming that they are the opposite sex to who they are. This will happen in situations where there are specific requirements for one sex to be eligible such as rest rooms, gyms, medical situations, sports, etc. A male cannot just walk up and say they are a women and then get open access to places that women may occupy. This is the difficulty we are facing at the moment in how do we accommodate transgender people into main stream society. There is no clear cut process and we are discovering new dilemmas as we go.

There have been few if any situations where that has ever been an issue.

Besides, if a person is living their whole life as a woman, safe to say they aren't doing it just to get into the ladies room to perv.
 
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Kylie

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That has already been addressed. I already said if a person appears to be a man but tells me they are a woman, rather than inspect their underwear, I would assume they are a biological woman and address them accordingly (and visa versa). But this isn't good enough, because if the person tells me they are a Them, a Zi, or Xi I refuse to play that game thus our debate continues.

So you refuse to address a person with the pronouns they wish. Do you think that you are a better judge than them of what pronouns are valid for them and which aren't?
 
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Ken-1122

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So you refuse to address a person with the pronouns they wish. Do you think that you are a better judge than them of what pronouns are valid for them and which aren't?
The pronouns they wish are gender pronouns. I don't use gender pronouns.
 
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stevevw

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There have been few if any situations where that has ever been an issue.

Besides, if a person is living their whole life as a woman, safe to say they aren't doing it just to get into the ladies room to perv.
I appreciate that but this still doesn't stop women feeling uncomfortable with sharing a private space like a toilet with a male who identifies as a women and still has male genitals.

The same problem happens even more so in women's gyms and dressing rooms. Sports is another area that is a problem in that men who transition to women can have greater strength. Women feel that it is unfair and unsafe. there are more cases coming up which are proving a dilemma. A transgender male is taking a number of female only beauty salons to the anti-discrimination commission because the women refuse to do a Brazilian when the person still has male genitals.

These situations are going to come up as this is applied to practical situations in society. The law allows for a male to claim they are a female even if they keep their male genitals. I support people being able to identify with the gender they identify with but I don't think legislators have thought this through very well when applied to these practical situations. This is only causing conflicts and difficulties for all involved.
 
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stevevw

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I'm going to be interested in seeing how that plays out in women's sports. For several reasons, it's going to be more obvious in high school and college than at the professional level.

But there is the odd case of Caster Semenya, an African runner who was born organically female, but naturally has a Y chromosome that has caused her to produce much more testosterone than the average woman. In my opinion, this is like a man who is genetically disposed to be 8 feet tall going out for basketball, but the International Olympic Committee has ruled that she must take testosterone-suppressing drugs to compete as a woman.
Also males who identify as women can compete against women across a number of sports and are dominating. This is causing women to feel that this is unfair and in some cases such as physical contact sports unsafe. The law allows for a person who would still have all the traits of a male to compete as a female which does not seem fair. This is because people refuse to acknowledge that sex (biology) is the true indicator of who is male and female. Instead some want to use subjective feelings rather than scientific fact in how to determine who is male and female. If a person says they are a women then they can legally be a women. When we use peoples feelings as a measure it is bound to lead to problems like we are seeing.
 
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Ken-1122

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And you've said that you don't believe them because no one has been able to rationally explain it to you. Everything that is based on emotions is irrational by definition.
I disagree! A few years back a friend of mine won a large sum of money playing the lottery; his emotional outburst of excitement was totally rational. When I had my car broken into by a thief, my emotional rage and anger was rational; I would say most emotions people display are completely rational

If you're using the word "delusion" then you're acknowledging that they actually feel the way they do, so their feelings aren't being falsely reported to you by them.
I have no doubt their feelings are real, I just believe they are unjustified in and should not be catered to. As the point was made earlier; if I were anorexia but saw myself as fat, I should not be catered to and have everybody around me claiming I need to lose more weight in order to make me feel better. If I weighed 800 lbs and were in denial that I was obese, I should not be catered to and have everybody around me telling me I don't need to lose weight because it makes me feel better. A sweet lie should not take the place of the bitter truth, just because it makes someone feel better.

But trans people don't think they have different biology than they actually do. They think that gender is, at least in part, an internal emotional thing, and they think that their biology doesn't match up with that internal emotional thing. If they actually thought their biology was that of the gender they identify with, they wouldn't seek surgery or hormone treatments, would they?
Perhaps they need to be told their idea of gender is wrong.

Just like I don't actually think the name on my birth certificate says, "Nick", but I don't feel like a "Nicholas" so I don't identify with that name.
There is no such a thing as feeling like a Nick. If you believe there is, and it is causing you problems, you need to be told your idea of feeling like a nick is wrong.

Think about other names that generally have stereotypical personalities assigned to them. "Eugene" is associated with nerdiness, typically. So if you met a fella who was a bodybuilding dummy, you might say, "You don't seem like a 'Eugene' to me".
That is absurd! Eugene is not associated with nerdiness. the only Eugene is know was a bouncer at a night club and he was a very big and intimidating guy
So what's the "false information"? Trans women don't believe they have vaginas. Trans men don't believe they have penises. The feelings they have aren't false. Where's the falsehood?
Biological women (trans men) believe there are specific cultural roles for women and other roles for men and the female roles don't apply to them; they feel more comfortable in the roles they believe that apply to men thus they claim they identify as men. Just because you don't feel comfortable in the roles you believe women are supposed to fit into doesn't mean you are not a woman; and they need to be told that their roles they impose on women is wrong and not fitting into those roles doesn't mean you aren't a woman
 
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Ken-1122

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That's OK until we come up against more testing situations where it is important to be sure a person is not just claiming that they are the opposite sex to who they are. This will happen in situations where there are specific requirements for one sex to be eligible such as rest rooms, gyms, medical situations, sports, etc. A male cannot just walk up and say they are a women and then get open access to places that women may occupy.
Actually that is exactly what happened, except the male doesn't have to claim to be a woman, he just goes inside the ladies room knowing the staff are not allowed to question him.
When the Obama administration imposed the transgender rule on public schools and facilities, public restroom and shower facilities in my state allowed this and at the gym I go to this was a problem of guys going into the ladies room because they knew they could and the staff could not question them
Fortunately Trump rescinded it, so now nobody tries it anymore.

Man strips in front of girls in locker room, says transgender law allows it

School sued after opening boys' locker room to girls - WND - WND
 
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hedrick

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Ken-1122

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Two things:
  • "Strips" might give the wrong impression. He started to take off his shirt.
  • He was asked to leave and did.
So it doesn't look like his claim was accepted.
This happened near where I live. Initially he did leave (which he didn't have to) only to return later during the youth swim. The police were never called because his claim was accepted.
 
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stevevw

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Being transgender is diagnosed as having gender dysphoria. Gender dysphoria is when a person feels their emotional and psychological identity as a male or female is opposite to their biological sex. So it is based on a feeling and nothing in scientific fact. It is recognized by psychological and medical associations and no one disputes that. The issue for me comes when certain groups claim there is no biological measure for male and females and want to only use a self identified measure. But even the accepted definition of gender dysphoria acknowledges that there is a biological measure of male and female. They say it is a feeling a person has about their gender that does not match their biological sex.

For me that is saying that biological sex is a fact and a persons feelings about their gender is based on subjective feelings which may be real for the person but has nothing to do with the general scientific fact that people are born with physical sex characteristics which are either male and female.

My concern is in using a feeling about ones gender to trump the reality of biological sex to then take drastic steps in altering a persons physical characteristics to match that feeling. Now the recognized treatment for gender dysphoria is to give hormone therapy and sex change surgery. Anyone who even suggests that any treatment that tries to get a persons feelings which are subjective to match their biological sex are seen as trans-phobic and abuse. So feelings are the measure for treatment which in any other field of medicine would be seen as wrong.

I think it would be hard for a person whose minds eye view of who they are does not match their physical attributes. But even if a person has hormone and surgical treatment I am not sure that this would really help in the long run. A male will always be a male and any treatment to try and change that would only be an attempt to change what was meant to be physically. So it will never integrate completely and has a risk of making matters worse if it does not go right and meet a persons expectation.

Just like there is no way to turn back the aging process with plastic surgery there is no way to physically make a male a female or a female a male and therefore any attempt will often not bring the wholeness and happiness people seek. Today we place so much emphasis on trying bring happiness by how we feel and health professionals interpretation of care is trying to meet peoples desires. Sex change does not work in the long run. It is impossible to change a persons sex physically and any attempt will not bring good psycho-social outcomes.
Sex Reassignment Doesn’t Work. Here Is the Evidence.

It is a pity that society has taken what I think is an important option for treatment off the table in trying to help people psychologically regarding their gender because it has bowed to pressure groups and political correctness. The truth may be in the long run that treatment in trying to change a persons sex may be seen as abuse and wrong.
 
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