A simple fix for the Transgender issue.

[Moral Orel]

Who said anything about throwing an emotional fit? Believe it or not, justifiable anger, or happiness is possible.

You can have a reason to be angry or happy. That doesn't make being angry the same as acting logically. It isn't even logical to be angry, otherwise anger would be the correct feeling to have.

That's because they've changed the meaning of gender; which is why I no longer use gender when addressing people

I realize there are people who disagree with me, I'm just telling you why I no longer refer to Gender, and why I believe everybody else should do the same.

But there isn't a reason. It's just your opinion for no good reason. They aren't delusional, there is no false information, there's no harm. Why should I share your opinion? You need to show me a rational reason to share your opinion.

Actually using Gender this way is new.

Defining "Man" and "Woman" with characteristics other than penises and vaginas is not new, that was my point.

Poor analogy. In the English language; Nick is short for Nicholas. Man and Woman mean completely different things.

Proper names aren't part of the English language. They aren't words with definitions. Well, "Nick" almost is, but it's spelled "Knick". And "Nicholas" means something completely different than "Nick" to me. So the analogy is apt.

I never said masculinity makes you a biological male; what are you talking about?

I know you didn't. I didn't say you didn't. What are you talking about?

How are you defining a father? Is a Father and a Daddy the same to you? What difference does it make? Are people losing their jobs because they refuse to refer to you as the father? Are there laws being enacted to make it illegal to refer to you as the Daddy instead of the father? Do you see this as the same as some of the legal repercussions of mis gendering someone?

No, how do you define "Father"? Strictly based on biology and genetics, or based on cultural norms?

I already told you that if we're talking about making a law, I'm on your side. If I want to tease a cis gendered guy by calling him a "her" I should have that legal right too. This is about ethics and morality, hence the subforum. You've stated that you'll offend people who aren't hurting anyone, and haven't shown any reason to think any harm will come from not offending them. That doesn't sound ethical to me. Do you have some brand of ethics that isn't concerned with harm at all or what?

 

[Kylie]

No, I'm saying to people; your pronouns are referring to gender, I don't refer to gender.

Then how do you refer to me? She? It? They?

Not quite; I'm putting my right to use biology when I speak, above their wishes that I use gender as they define it.

So you think the genitals they have is more important than their gender identity?

It does for me; and I'm not alone with this.

When it comes to how other people identify, what you think is irrelevant.

 

[stevevw]

It's about their gender identity, which is in the person's head, not between their legs.

I understand that, and this is the issue. You cannot pretend that biological sex does not play a part in what makes a male or female and contributes to gender. So it is also about what is between a persons legs regardless of whats in their head. Gender ideology wants to relegate biological sex to the back ground and use a persons subjective ideals to determine male and female. According to this ideology a male can become a female by just thinking they are a female . Therefore their genitals and other male biological traits are also irrelevant so long as they believe they are female in their head.

This seems illogical considering that many transgender females go on hormone blockers and have sex changes to eradicate any biological markers that show that they are male which for me shows that physical traits play a big part in causing gender dysphoria. The process is called gender reassignment which sort of says that it is the physical features that are being reassigned to change gender. If gender dysphoria is about a person feeling the opposite sex to their physical body then what is between a persons legs is a major players in transgender issues. For me denying biological sex is like the example I gave earlier where a person with Anorexia Nervosa thinks they are overweight in their head when everyone can see they are grossly thin.

If people are then forced to go along with this ideology then I think it is unhealthy. You cannot turn a male into a female by thinking this in your head nor by taking hormones and changing body parts. What is believed to be about gender in a persons head is like many things that come under a social construction which can change all the time. What determines sex is our physical, biological and genetic makeup. In the long run a person who tried to make themselves the opposite sex will not achieve the outcomes they believe they can get as every cell in a persons body is either male or female and nothing can change that. I think this is what is causing the conflict and confusion in that gender ideology is trying to deny scientific facts and replace them with subjective feelings.

So I will ask the question again. Does any part of a women's biological sex contribute to them being a women. Or is it only about what's in their head.

 

[Kylie]

I understand that, and this is the issue. You cannot pretend that biological sex does not play a part in what makes a male or female and contributes to gender. So it is also about what is between a persons legs regardless of whats in their head. Gender ideology wants to relegate biological sex to the back ground and use a persons subjective ideals to determine male and female. According to this ideology a male can become a female by just thinking they are a female . Therefore their genitals and other male biological traits are also irrelevant so long as they believe they are female in their head.

This seems illogical considering that many transgender females go on hormone blockers and have sex changes to eradicate any biological markers that show that they are male which for me shows that physical traits play a big part in causing gender dysphoria. The process is called gender reassignment which sort of says that it is the physical features that are being reassigned to change gender. If gender dysphoria is about a person feeling the opposite sex to their physical body then what is between a persons legs is a major players in transgender issues. For me denying biological sex is like the example I gave earlier where a person with Anorexia Nervosa thinks they are overweight in their head when everyone can see they are grossly thin.

If people are then forced to go along with this ideology then I think it is unhealthy. You cannot turn a male into a female by thinking this in your head nor by taking hormones and changing body parts. What is believed to be about gender in a persons head is like many things that come under a social construction which can change all the time. What determines sex is our physical, biological and genetic makeup. In the long run a person who tried to make themselves the opposite sex will not achieve the outcomes they believe they can get as every cell in a persons body is either male or female and nothing can change that. I think this is what is causing the conflict and confusion in that gender ideology is trying to deny scientific facts and replace them with subjective feelings.

So I will ask the question again. Does any part of a women's biological sex contribute to them being a women. Or is it only about what's in their head.

There is a lot of evidence to show that a person's gender identity - their sense of being a man or a woman - is not tied to what is physically between their legs. The genitals of people and the brains of people develop their characteristics at different points, so it's perfectly possible for the genitals to get signals to form one way while the brain does not develop the same gender. So a fetus can get the signals to form a penis and develop physically into a male, but the brain does not get the signals to develop into a male brain.

Transgender brains are more like their desired gender from an early age

https://health.clevelandclinic.org/research-on-the-transgender-brain-what-you-should-know/

Are the Brains of Transgender People Different from Those of Cisgender People?

 

[Dave-W]

No, what makes me a woman is my gender identity, which is in my head. It is not in my genitals.

No - it is in your chromosomes.

XX = female (woman)
XY = male (man)

And yes I know there are other more esoteric or exotic arrangements, but those cover at least 95% of humanity.

 

[stevevw]

No, what makes me a woman is my gender identity, which is in my head. It is not in my genitals.

It's obvious to anyone that a person's sense of being a man/woman/other is not tied to what is between their legs. Take the case of David Reimer, who lost his penis in a botched circumcision and was raised as a girl. Unfortunately, his gender identity lived in his head, so even though he was raised as a girl, he still identified as male. He ended up killing himself due to depression.

If it is all in the head and genitals and other physical signs are irrelevant then why so much importance placed on hormone therapy and sex change operations. Any child who now questions their gender is advised to go on hormone therapy which will change their body towards the gender they identify as. This indicates that the physical aspects of gender do play a prominent part in how a person perceives their gender. So why not change what's in peoples heads to match their bodies rather than the extreme steps of changing the whole body in what has been shown to not fulfill the desired outcomes in the long run and has many risks.

 

[Ken-1122]

You can have a reason to be angry or happy. That doesn't make being angry the same as acting logically. It isn't even logical to be angry, otherwise anger would be the correct feeling to have.

Sometimes anger or happiness IS the correct feeling to have.

But there isn't a reason. It's just your opinion for no good reason.

No good reason to you; to me it is a good reason.

They aren't delusional, there is no false information, there's no harm.

Delusion is when what goes on inside your head contradicts reality. I say delusion because they act as if their biological sex is different than what they are.

Why should I share your opinion? You need to show me a rational reason to share your opinion.

Why should you share my opinion? So you can be right for once. Obviously you are never going to agree with me, perhaps my ideas aren't for you; but somebody else.

Defining "Man" and "Woman" with characteristics other than penises and vaginas is not new, that was my point.

I didn't say "penises and viginas" I said biology.

Proper names aren't part of the English language. They aren't words with definitions. Well, "Nick" almost is, but it's spelled "Knick". And "Nicholas" means something completely different than "Nick" to me. So the analogy is apt.

*Is Nicholas a name often used by people who speak English? Yes.
*Is Nick often used as a short version of Nicholas by people who speak English? Yes.
My point stands.

No, how do you define "Father"?

A Biological male parent.

I already told you that if we're talking about making a law, I'm on your side.

Then stop saying they aren't harming anyone, because that's what they're doing! They are getting laws to harm those who don't comply with their demands.

You've stated that you'll offend people who aren't hurting anyone, and haven't shown any reason to think any harm will come from not offending them. That doesn't sound ethical to me.

If I am being forced to address them in a way I find absurd or offensive, I am being harmed.

 

[Ken-1122]

Then how do you refer to me? She? It? They?

It all depends on your biology.

So you think the genitals they have is more important than their gender identity?

Who said anything about genitals??? Why is everybody bringing up genitals when I clearly said biology? Biology is much more than just genitals.

When it comes to how other people identify, what you think is irrelevant.

My issue isn't how people identify themselves, my issue is what I'm allowed to say, how I'm allowed to think, and the views I'm allowed to have. Now when it comes to those things, as far as I'm concerned my view is the most important in the world

 

[Ken-1122]

There is a lot of evidence to show that a person's gender identity - their sense of being a man or a woman - is not tied to what is physically between their legs. The genitals of people and the brains of people develop their characteristics at different points, so it's perfectly possible for the genitals to get signals to form one way while the brain does not develop the same gender. So a fetus can get the signals to form a penis and develop physically into a male, but the brain does not get the signals to develop into a male brain.

Transgender brains are more like their desired gender from an early age

https://health.clevelandclinic.org/research-on-the-transgender-brain-what-you-should-know/

Are the Brains of Transgender People Different from Those of Cisgender People?

Here is a study from Brown University (hardly a conservative source) about teens coming out as transgender that suggests many teens come out as transgender after joining groups of friends who already came out; and that “Peer Contagion” is often the driving force

Study: Teen gender confusion associated with ‘trans’ peer groups, prior mental health issues

 

[Kylie]

No - it is in your chromosomes.

XX = female (woman)
XY = male (man)

And yes I know there are other more esoteric or exotic arrangements, but those cover at least 95% of humanity.

Yes, but they do not produce the sense of gender that exists inside a person's head, only the physical structures between their legs.

 

[Kylie]

If it is all in the head and genitals and other physical signs are irrelevant then why so much importance placed on hormone therapy and sex change operations. Any child who now questions their gender is advised to go on hormone therapy which will change their body towards the gender they identify as. This indicates that the physical aspects of gender do play a prominent part in how a person perceives their gender. So why not change what's in peoples heads to match their bodies rather than the extreme steps of changing the whole body in what has been shown to not fulfill the desired outcomes in the long run and has many risks.

Because when a person's gender identity tells them one thing and their body doesn't match, it leads to gender dysphoria, which can cause depression and is generally pretty horrible to live through. In any case, we don't have a problem with other kinds of plastic surgery, so why is it a problem to have GRS so a person can have a body they are happy with?

 

[Kylie]

It all depends on your biology.

Why? You think that I must be a woman just because I have a vagina?

Who said anything about genitals??? Why is everybody bringing up genitals when I clearly said biology? Biology is much more than just genitals.

Okay then, please explain what "biology" includes that is not genitals.

My issue isn't how people identify themselves, my issue is what I'm allowed to say, how I'm allowed to think, and the views I'm allowed to have. Now when it comes to those things, as far as I'm concerned my view is the most important in the world

The trouble is, you are claiming that your views about a person are more important than that person's own views about themselves. Do you think your views about me are more important than my views about me?

 

[Kylie]

Here is a study from Brown University (hardly a conservative source) about teens coming out as transgender that suggests many teens come out as transgender after joining groups of friends who already came out; and that “Peer Contagion” is often the driving force

Study: Teen gender confusion associated with ‘trans’ peer groups, prior mental health issues

For a start, this "lifesite" page is quite conservative, so there's a strike against your point.

Secondly, the study itself shows that many of the kids had expressed non-heterosexual orientation prior to this, so it doesn't seem like it's a case of one person coming out as trans and then all of their friends deciding to do it as well because it's the cool thing to do. What it's described seems to me to be perfectly consistent with a young person realising there is something different about themselves, looking for information about it, finding something that represents them, realising they aren't alone, finding themselves part of a larger community that they may not have even known about, and finding the strength to be open about it once they realise that what they are experiencing is something that lots of other people have gone through.

Perhaps in the future you'll go to the actual source rather than listening to what some pro-right wing, anti-trans website tells you what to think about the source.

 

[Moral Orel]

Sometimes anger or happiness IS the correct feeling to have.

That's irrational too.

No good reason to you; to me it is a good reason.

So you have an opinion because you have an opinion. Not very convincing.

Delusion is when what goes on inside your head contradicts reality. I say delusion because they act as if their biological sex is different than what they are.

That isn't what a "delusion" is. So you're wrong about that too. They define a word differently than you do, that isn't delusional.

Why should you share my opinion? So you can be right for once. Obviously you are never going to agree with me, perhaps my ideas aren't for you; but somebody else.

Opinions aren't right or wrong. So you're wrong about that too.

I didn't say "penises and viginas" I said biology.

So what?

*Is Nicholas a name often used by people who speak English? Yes.
*Is Nick often used as a short version of Nicholas by people who speak English? Yes.
My point stands.

And you're happy catering to my delusion, that's all that matters.

A Biological male parent.

So you think I'm "delusional" for believing I have a son because I define "father" differently than you do?

Then stop saying they aren't harming anyone, because that's what they're doing! They are getting laws to harm those who don't comply with their demands.

Nope. That's what some folks want, and I'll agree that's harmful. You don't get to pin that on every single trans person, and you don't get to conflate that with asking you nicely to refer to them by the "he" or "she" that they prefer. You're wrong again.

If I am being forced to address them in a way I find absurd or offensive, I am being harmed.

We're not talking about forcing you. Get it right. Since we're not talking about forcing you, then you aren't harmed.

What fact do you think I have gotten wrong thus far in our argument? I know you think my opinion is incorrect, but that isn't how opinions work. Your argument is based on false information, and you've been wrong on the facts at every turn.

 

[stevevw]

There is a lot of evidence to show that a person's gender identity - their sense of being a man or a woman - is not tied to what is physically between their legs. The genitals of people and the brains of people develop their characteristics at different points, so it's perfectly possible for the genitals to get signals to form one way while the brain does not develop the same gender. So a fetus can get the signals to form a penis and develop physically into a male, but the brain does not get the signals to develop into a male brain.

Transgender brains are more like their desired gender from an early age

https://health.clevelandclinic.org/research-on-the-transgender-brain-what-you-should-know/

Are the Brains of Transgender People Different from Those of Cisgender People?

First thanks for the links, I found them very interesting. Though the articles talk about some research showing similarities in brain structure and activity between transgender people and the gender they identify with the data has not established how this happens and despite you saying it can be traced to early childhood or even before birth there is no conclusive evidence for this.

Other studies mentioned in the same article show it is much more complex. Some studies have produced contradictory results. Some research shows socialization as an influence while others show there is very little similarities between trans and their identified gender and still others show that the brain remains much the same regardless of gender identities. Some show there is a part in the brain of transgender people associated with self-identity of gender that is poorly wired which would explain gender dysphoria. Other research talks about the plasticity of the brain and genetics and how lifestyle can also change brain structure and activity. As the articles say it is more likely to be a combination of psychological, social and biological influences.

But what I find interesting is that the articles talk about there may be separate developments for biological sex features and the wiring for these in the brain. Though there is no conclusive evidence that gender is purely biological as mentioned above. But if true this points to a breakdown in the development process which has not integrated the two and for me the root of the problem is in the brain rather than in the physical body. The brain has not developed properly to match the physical body. I would be interested to find out why this has happened as there may be a way to avoid this. Is it an epigenetic issue or some other outside influence that has affected the development process?

But this is not really the point that I have been referring to. The point is gender ideology has taken a position that gender is only associated with a persons mind even before any of this research was out which shows there is an agenda. They have taken a position regardless of what any science shows. They say that gender fluidity and being transgender is a social norm and natural part of development when the science is showing there is a breakdown in the normal development. By saying it is normal and only allowing one fix is a risky proposition.

Despite a male for example having all the physical traits of a male and every cell in their body being male they have to somehow try to change all that physical development which was correctly developed to meet what’s in the head which is more likely to be where the root of the problem comes from whether that be psychological or wrongly wired brain connections. Considering that most other treatments for mind and body in-congruence is usually done by treating the mind and not chopping and changing the body I think we need to be careful. Considering we know we can never change a person’s sex and any attempt is going to be artificial and unsatisfactory.

But those who support gender ideology won't allow this. They call any attempt to alter the mind as being trans-phobic. They have stopped one big area of possible solutions to the problem because it is a threat to the ideology. So, I think there is more to the gender debate going on. It is heavily influenced by politics and social agendas. This can only lead to more damage than what gender ideology claims is being caused now because even after a sex change and in countries where the laws have been in support for transgenders, they still show high degrees of mental health issues.

 

[stevevw]

Because when a person's gender identity tells them one thing and their body doesn't match, it leads to gender dysphoria, which can cause depression and is generally pretty horrible to live through. In any case, we don't have a problem with other kinds of plastic surgery, so why is it a problem to have GRS so a person can have a body they are happy with?

I agree that there is in-congruence between mind and body. What I disagree with is how it is treated. Gender ideology has dictated what can and cannot be used in treatment. Now young people who question their gender are automatically assumed to be gender dysphoric and supported to changing their bodies to the opposite sex. Intervention is happening at younger ages and it reminds me of the way young people are being given medications for all these new aged problems that have been created like ADHD so readily and easy.

Hormone blockers at a young age can do great damage as hormones affect the whole body and not just sex. There is evidence that the brain is affected as well as associated with decreased bone development, cancer and infertility. Sex change operations are permanent and there is evidence many young people grow out of their gender dysphoria and accept they origin sex at birth. So it is a high price to pay for an ideology that is based on flimsy and unverified evidence.

Evidence also shows that sex change operations do not work anyway in the long run. A person who knows that their body does not match their real sense of self and gender, also knows that a sex change operation artificially alters their body and is not real and this can make matters worse. For the most part plastic surgery is the same. It may bring some short-term happiness but in the long run people know it is artificial and the results usually end up making people look and feel worse. It is a false hope and that is the problem as false hope when discovered will compound any feelings of inadequacy.

Doctors: Puberty blockers are a dangerous experiment
Doctors: Puberty blockers are a dangerous experiment

Sex Reassignment Doesn’t Work. Here Is the Evidence.
Sex Reassignment Doesn’t Work. Here Is the Evidence.

 

[Ken-1122]

Why? You think that I must be a woman just because I have a vagina?

Okay then, please explain what "biology" includes that is not genitals.

Is your testosterone level closer to 500? or 25. Is your Chromosomes XX or XY? there is more to your biology than your sex organs.

The trouble is, you are claiming that your views about a person are more important than that person's own views about themselves. Do you think your views about me are more important than my views about me?

My views about you are important to me, and your views about you are important to yourself. But you don't have the right to demand I view you the way you view yourself; that's for me to decide (and visa versa).
But perhaps you can explain something to me then. What does it mean to identify as a particular sex? I'm probably what you would call a "Cis" male; meaning I identify as a man, and my biology is male. But the reality is; I identify as myself! I have no idea what it means to identify as a man. If I felt the exact same way I do now but I had female sex organs, I would say I'm a woman because I would assume what I feel other women feel as well. So when someone says they identify as something other than their biology, what does that mean? Help me understand this.

 

[Ken-1122]

For a start, this "lifesite" page is quite conservative, so there's a strike against your point.

Lifesite did not do the study, Brown University did it. So why is Brown University's study a strike against?

Secondly, the study itself shows that many of the kids had expressed non-heterosexual orientation prior to this,

Why does that matter? There is a big difference between being non-heterosexual and transgender.

so it doesn't seem like it's a case of one person coming out as trans and then all of their friends deciding to do it as well because it's the cool thing to do.

Actually I think it kinda does. Kids are very impressionable at that age, the desire to fit in, or be a part of a group is very important to them.

Perhaps in the future you'll go to the actual source rather than listening to what some pro-right wing, anti-trans website tells you what to think about the source.

That was the actual source.

 

[Ken-1122]

That's irrational too.

really? Prove it. Prove it is never reasonable for a person to be angry or happy.

That isn't what a "delusion" is. So you're wrong about that too. They define a word differently than you do, that isn't delusional.

Merriam-webster dictionary seems to agree with me.
Definition of DELUSION

And you're happy catering to my delusion, that's all that matters.

I don't see it as a delusion

So you think I'm "delusional" for believing I have a son because I define "father" differently than you do?

Merriam-webster dictionary agrees with my definition of Father. Do you have a definition that disagree with me and agree with you? If not, then your problem is with the dictionary; not me.
Definition of FATHER

Nope. That's what some folks want, and I'll agree that's harmful. You don't get to pin that on every single trans person, and you don't get to conflate that with asking you nicely to refer to them by the "he" or "she" that they prefer. You're wrong again.

We're not talking about forcing you. Get it right. Since we're not talking about forcing you, then you aren't harmed.

Okay. The reason I pointed this out is because that is a major part of my disagreement with this issue. However if you are talking only about that percentage of them who ask respectfully that I refer to them according to their Gender, and will take it no further than that; I will respectfully respond that I don't address gender, only biology; end of conversation. I see no problem with that.

 

[Kylie]

First thanks for the links, I found them very interesting. Though the articles talk about some research showing similarities in brain structure and activity between transgender people and the gender they identify with the data has not established how this happens and despite you saying it can be traced to early childhood or even before birth there is no conclusive evidence for this.

Other studies mentioned in the same article show it is much more complex. Some studies have produced contradictory results. Some research shows socialization as an influence while others show there is very little similarities between trans and their identified gender and still others show that the brain remains much the same regardless of gender identities. Some show there is a part in the brain of transgender people associated with self-identity of gender that is poorly wired which would explain gender dysphoria. Other research talks about the plasticity of the brain and genetics and how lifestyle can also change brain structure and activity. As the articles say it is more likely to be a combination of psychological, social and biological influences.

But what I find interesting is that the articles talk about there may be separate developments for biological sex features and the wiring for these in the brain. Though there is no conclusive evidence that gender is purely biological as mentioned above. But if true this points to a breakdown in the development process which has not integrated the two and for me the root of the problem is in the brain rather than in the physical body. The brain has not developed properly to match the physical body. I would be interested to find out why this has happened as there may be a way to avoid this. Is it an epigenetic issue or some other outside influence that has affected the development process?

But this is not really the point that I have been referring to. The point is gender ideology has taken a position that gender is only associated with a persons mind even before any of this research was out which shows there is an agenda. They have taken a position regardless of what any science shows. They say that gender fluidity and being transgender is a social norm and natural part of development when the science is showing there is a breakdown in the normal development. By saying it is normal and only allowing one fix is a risky proposition.

Despite a male for example having all the physical traits of a male and every cell in their body being male they have to somehow try to change all that physical development which was correctly developed to meet what’s in the head which is more likely to be where the root of the problem comes from whether that be psychological or wrongly wired brain connections. Considering that most other treatments for mind and body in-congruence is usually done by treating the mind and not chopping and changing the body I think we need to be careful. Considering we know we can never change a person’s sex and any attempt is going to be artificial and unsatisfactory.

But those who support gender ideology won't allow this. They call any attempt to alter the mind as being trans-phobic. They have stopped one big area of possible solutions to the problem because it is a threat to the ideology. So, I think there is more to the gender debate going on. It is heavily influenced by politics and social agendas. This can only lead to more damage than what gender ideology claims is being caused now because even after a sex change and in countries where the laws have been in support for transgenders, they still show high degrees of mental health issues.

You actually got any evidence for any of this?