A simple fix for the Transgender issue.

[Ken-1122]

For a start, there's no evidence to show that a person's gender identity not matching their body is a delusion. I'm not aware of any reputable health organisation that treats it as such.

Secondly, I've already pointed out how belief in God is a person making a statement about the universe external to themselves, while a person making a statement about their gender identity is making a statement about themselves, not the universe external to them.

Just as you find the God claim to be unreasonable thus you remain skeptical, I find the trans claim to be unreasonable thus I remain skeptical. The similarities between the two examples Strathos provided is between the skeptics (you and I) and our reasons for rejecting the claims, not the actual claims themselves.

 

[Ana the Ist]

You miss my point.

You can talk about wavelengths, rods, cones, reflected light etc all you want, but the blind person will never have the UNDERSTANDING of light that you do.

It's not magical thinking though...

It doesn't require a leap of faith like "feeling God's love" or something like that....it's a rational coherent explanation.

 

[Kylie]

For the purposes of your binary distinction (claims external to themselves and claims applying only to themselves), then it is.

I think you've missed the point.

If a person claims they are God, then that is an extraordinary claim and thus requires extraordinary evidence. Do you think a person claiming they are trans is just as extraordinary as a person claiming they are God?

 

[Kylie]

I think that's the case for most people.

Then your proposed solution - just not addressing the problem - isn't going to solve it. When the trans people are being discriminated against, when they are being harmed, for others to ignore it isn't going to stop it from happening.

Because I find their request to be unreasonable.

Because you've decided you understand how they should be addressed better than they do?

 

[Kylie]

Just as you find the God claim to be unreasonable thus you remain skeptical, I find the trans claim to be unreasonable thus I remain skeptical. The similarities between the two examples Strathos provided is between the skeptics (you and I) and our reasons for rejecting the claims, not the actual claims themselves.

I find it unreasonable to accept a claim that a person is God because a claim that extraordinary requires extraordinary evidence. The claim that a person is trans is much less extraordinary. Accepting or rejecting claims is not a black or white thing. Would you find it unreasonable if they claimed to be autistic? Or to hate science fiction?

 

[Kylie]

It's not magical thinking though...

It doesn't require a leap of faith like "feeling God's love" or something like that....it's a rational coherent explanation.

But that doesn't give you an actual UNDERSTANDING of it though.

I play piano, and have done ever since I was a kid. If you read every word of every book ever written about playing a piano, do you think you could sit at a piano and play better than me on your very first attempt? Of course not. No one could. Because having access to the knowledge and the theory - a C, an E and a G makes a C Major chord, for example - does not give you the understanding required to actually PLAY the piano. You still have to learn to play it.

 

[Ana the Ist]

But that doesn't give you an actual UNDERSTANDING of it though.

Sure it does. It may not allow me to experience it...but experience isn't required for understanding. I understand what frostbite is, yet I've never experienced it.

I feel like you're stalling on my question earlier regarding the gender-fluid trans people. Do you accept that claim uncritically as well? Can people just switch gender identity from day to day or hour to hour?

 

[Kylie]

Sure it does. It may not allow me to experience it...but experience isn't required for understanding. I understand what frostbite is, yet I've never experienced it.

But you don't understand what it is like to feel that particular pain.

I do not have testicles. I find it impossible to imagine what it is like to be kicked in the testicles. That sensation is forever denied to me, that understanding of what it feels like is forever denied me. Not that I'm complaining, my husband has experienced it and says it is horrible, and quite unlike the sort of pain you get from stubbing a toe, or breaking a bone. But I can never have that understanding, no matter how much I read about it, no matter how much I talk to men who have experienced it.

I feel like you're stalling on my question earlier regarding the gender-fluid trans people. Do you accept that claim uncritically as well? Can people just switch gender identity from day to day or hour to hour?

Gender fluid people do exist. Gender identity is not split into two, boy and girl. There's a whole spectrum of wibbly wobbly sexy wexy stuff. What the Heck is Genderfluid? Part 1

 

[Strathos]

I think you've missed the point.

If a person claims they are God, then that is an extraordinary claim and thus requires extraordinary evidence. Do you think a person claiming they are trans is just as extraordinary as a person claiming they are God?

Why, because a lot of people make that claim? A lot of people claim to be God as well. Most cult leaders, just for starters.

 

[Ana the Ist]

But you don't understand what it is like to feel that particular pain.

C'mon...let's not presume about my experiences, I won't presume about yours.

I do not have testicles. I find it impossible to imagine what it is like to be kicked in the testicles.

Do you know what it feels like to identify as a man?

Gender fluid people do exist. Gender identity is not split into two, boy and girl. There's a whole spectrum of wibbly wobbly sexy wexy stuff. What the Heck is Genderfluid? Part 1

Well if it can switch at any given time....then who is to say that a trans person is "stuck" feeling like the opposite gender? Wouldn't we have to assume that it's definitely possible that they may switch to feeling like their biological gender?

 

[Ken-1122]

Then your proposed solution - just not addressing the problem - isn't going to solve it. When the trans people are being discriminated against, when they are being harmed, for others to ignore it isn't going to stop it from happening.

My proposed solution is not designed to prevent them from being harmed, it is designed to prevent them from being misgendered.

Because you've decided you understand how they should be addressed better than they do?

Nobody has a right to demand I believe as they believe.

I find it unreasonable to accept a claim that a person is God because a claim that extraordinary requires extraordinary evidence. The claim that a person is trans is much less extraordinary. Accepting or rejecting claims is not a black or white thing. Would you find it unreasonable if they claimed to be autistic? Or to hate science fiction?

The claim I reject is not whether they are trans or not, the claim I reject is that a biological man is actually a woman simply because of what goes on inside of his head.

 

[Kylie]

Why, because a lot of people make that claim? A lot of people claim to be God as well. Most cult leaders, just for starters.

Wow, are you really saying that someone who claims to be trans is just as delusional as someone who claims to be a god?

 

[Kylie]

C'mon...let's not presume about my experiences, I won't presume about yours.

Okay, I don't know if you;ve experienced frostbite or not. But if you have surely you agree that no one knows how it feels to have frostbite unless they have actually had frostbite.

Do you know what it feels like to identify as a man?

No, because I don't identify as a man.

Well if it can switch at any given time....then who is to say that a trans person is "stuck" feeling like the opposite gender? Wouldn't we have to assume that it's definitely possible that they may switch to feeling like their biological gender?

Why do you think that ALL trans people are gender fluid just because some people are gender fluid?

 

[Kylie]

My proposed solution is not designed to prevent them from being harmed, it is designed to prevent them from being misgendered.

Then wouldn't the easiest solution be to just refer to them however they ask you to?

Nobody has a right to demand I believe as they believe.

Wow, that's a drastic reaction to have when someone asks you to refer to them by a particular gender.

Trans person: "Could you refer to me as a woman please?"

Response: "No! You have a penis, so I'm going to refer to you based on the shape of your genitals! I've decided you're a man! I don't care what you say!"

The claim I reject is not whether they are trans or not, the claim I reject is that a biological man is actually a woman simply because of what goes on inside of his head.

So you think your conclusion based on the shape of a person's genitals is more reliable than their own experience of their own lives?

 

[Ken-1122]

Then wouldn't the easiest solution be to just refer to them however they ask you to?

Just because it’s easy, doesn’t make it right

Wow, that's a drastic reaction to have when someone asks you to refer to them by a particular gender.

Trans person: "Could you refer to me as a woman please?"

Response: "No! You have a penis, so I'm going to refer to you based on the shape of your genitals! I've decided you're a man! I don't care what you say!"

So you think your conclusion based on the shape of a person's genitals is more reliable than their own experience of their own lives?

Yeah that’s about it. And until they can explain to me in a way that sounds reasonable; what it means to identify as a specific gender different than your biology, I will continue to believe that way.

 

[Ken-1122]

Why do you think that ALL trans people are gender fluid just because some people are gender fluid?

I think he makes a very good point, and I don’t think he was claiming all trans people are gender fluid. If a child is given hormone blockers because she says her gender contradicts her biology, who is to say years later she may decide she no longer feels this way? If an adult can identify as a man one day, then switch to identifying as a woman the next, who is to say a child who identifies as a man today will not change her mind years down the road after hormone blockers and steroids have already ruined her body?

 

[Ana the Ist]

Okay, I don't know if you;ve experienced frostbite or not. But if you have surely you agree that no one knows how it feels to have frostbite unless they have actually had frostbite.

Knows? Yes...I agree. Much like a third degree burn or a concussion...it seems like a unique kind of pain.

I don't think this is the point you want to make though.

No, because I don't identify as a man.

Great...so how do you know this "innate sense" that you associate with being female is actually what females are experiencing? How do you know it's not what men experience and you're simply mistaken?

To use your analogy....let's imagine that women see everything in shades of red, and men see everything in shades of blue. How do you know that you're seeing shades of red and not blue? You'd have to be able to know what both colors look like before you can correctly identify which one you're seeing.

This is the problem with the claim of being "a woman in a man's body". How can they know without experiencing the "innate sense of being a man"?

Why do you think that ALL trans people are gender fluid just because some people are gender fluid?

Reread my post...I said possibility. I didn't say "all trans people are gender fluid".

 

[Kylie]

Just because it’s easy, doesn’t make it right

So you think that it is wrong to address people they way they ask you to?

Yeah that’s about it. And until they can explain to me in a way that sounds reasonable; what it means to identify as a specific gender different than your biology, I will continue to believe that way.

Because you, apparently, are the arbiter of what is reasonable or not.

 

[Kylie]

I think he makes a very good point, and I don’t think he was claiming all trans people are gender fluid. If a child is given hormone blockers because she says her gender contradicts her biology, who is to say years later she may decide she no longer feels this way? If an adult can identify as a man one day, then switch to identifying as a woman the next, who is to say a child who identifies as a man today will not change her mind years down the road after hormone blockers and steroids have already ruined her body?

Ah, so you are stopping people from identifying the way they wish in order to HELP them! Oh, they should be thanking you!

 

[Kylie]

Knows? Yes...I agree. Much like a third degree burn or a concussion...it seems like a unique kind of pain.

I don't think this is the point you want to make though.




Great...so how do you know this "innate sense" that you associate with being female is actually what females are experiencing? How do you know it's not what men experience and you're simply mistaken?

To use your analogy....let's imagine that women see everything in shades of red, and men see everything in shades of blue. How do you know that you're seeing shades of red and not blue? You'd have to be able to know what both colors look like before you can correctly identify which one you're seeing.

This is the problem with the claim of being "a woman in a man's body". How can they know without experiencing the "innate sense of being a man"?



Reread my post...I said possibility. I didn't say "all trans people are gender fluid".

I get the feeling that you aren't ever going to be convinced by what I say, so I'll leave you to it. If you feel that you need to disbelieve trans people because you can't comprehend what they are going through, then I pity you, but I'm done wasting my time.