A simple fix for the Transgender issue.

[Strathos]

The difference is that the Christian claiming that there is a God is making a statement about something external to themselves - they believe in a God that is separate to themselves. A trans person telling you their gender is not making a statement about something external to themselves.

So you're saying that their gender identity has no biological or neurological reality behind it?

 

[Kylie]

So you're saying that their gender identity has no biological or neurological reality behind it?

No.

When a Christian says that God exists, they are saying that God exists independant to themselves. They are saying that God is separate to them. God is not a part of them. They are not making a statement about some part of their own self, they are making a statement about the nature of the universe. They are saying that God exists, even if they didn't.

When a trans person says they are trans, they are talking about a quality of themselves. Their transness, the qualities they are describing that make them trans, exist solely in themselves, and they are NOT describing some external characteristic of the universe. If they did not exist, their transness would not exist either.

I mean, I thought I was quite clear about this. Did you miss the NOT in the last sentence of my post?

 

[Strathos]

No.

When a Christian says that God exists, they are saying that God exists independant to themselves. They are saying that God is separate to them. God is not a part of them. They are not making a statement about some part of their own self, they are making a statement about the nature of the universe. They are saying that God exists, even if they didn't.

When a trans person says they are trans, they are talking about a quality of themselves. Their transness, the qualities they are describing that make them trans, exist solely in themselves, and they are NOT describing some external characteristic of the universe. If they did not exist, their transness would not exist either.

I mean, I thought I was quite clear about this. Did you miss the NOT in the last sentence of my post?

How is Ken refusing to recognize that a person's feeling of being trans is anything more than a delusion any different from you refusing to recognize that God is anything more than someone's delusion?

 

[Ken-1122]

Are you suggesting that black people are not mistreated by police at a far greater rate than white people in America?

People who live in a high crime neighborhood are mistreated by the police at a far greater rate than people who live in a low crime neighborhood. It’s more of an economical issue rather than a racial issue.
And studies have shown minority police officers kill minorities at a significantly higher rate than white officers, (even though if you listen to the media you would think otherwise) though this is because minority officers are more likely to patrol minority neighborhoods thus have more contact with minority suspects
https://psmag.com/social-justice/black-cops-are-just-as-likely-as-whites-to-kill-black-suspects

No, I was making the statement that trans people are MORE LIKELY to face discrimination than the average American.

What constitutes discrimination? Refusing to pretend a biological man is a woman?

"What goes on in other countries is not my concern."

Context my friend; context.
Also do you know the difference between
a) What goes on in other countries is not my concern
b) I’m not concerned about other people
Do you understand the difference between those two statements?

 

[Ana the Ist]

But if a person born with a penis says they are a woman, that their gender identity is a woman, are we to say, "Well, I'm not going to believe you until explain it to my satisfaction"?

I'd like to know how they know....what the indicators are.

You literally linked me to a page filled with theory....which would be more significant if it wasn't psychological theory. Psychological theory is weak and often untestable.

You see...you're accepting the claims uncritically. Do you accept this claim uncritically as well?
What Does gender-fluid Mean? | Gender & Sexuality by Dictionary.com

That's basically a "trans identity" that can change...back and forth...between genders or neither gender, at any time. It's rather strongly contrasted with the idea you're putting forth about a trans person being quite firmly stuck in a gender identity that doesn't match their physical appearance.

Do you accept this uncritically as well?

 

[Kylie]

How is Ken refusing to recognize that a person's feeling of being trans is anything more than a delusion any different from you refusing to recognize that God is anything more than someone's delusion?

For a start, there's no evidence to show that a person's gender identity not matching their body is a delusion. I'm not aware of any reputable health organisation that treats it as such.

Secondly, I've already pointed out how belief in God is a person making a statement about the universe external to themselves, while a person making a statement about their gender identity is making a statement about themselves, not the universe external to them.

 

[Kylie]

People who live in a high crime neighborhood are mistreated by the police at a far greater rate than people who live in a low crime neighborhood. It’s more of an economical issue rather than a racial issue.
And studies have shown minority police officers kill minorities at a significantly higher rate than white officers, (even though if you listen to the media you would think otherwise) though this is because minority officers are more likely to patrol minority neighborhoods thus have more contact with minority suspects
https://psmag.com/social-justice/black-cops-are-just-as-likely-as-whites-to-kill-black-suspects

Wow, you don't read my posts, do you?

I'm talking about how black people are more likely to be killed by cops. I'm talking about the people being killed, not the people doing the killing.

What constitutes discrimination? Refusing to pretend a biological man is a woman?

Maybe refusing to respect a person's wishes about how they wish to be treated?

Context my friend; context.
Also do you know the difference between
a) What goes on in other countries is not my concern
b) I’m not concerned about other people
Do you understand the difference between those two statements?

So you're concerned about things that don't concern you.

You've made it clear that you aren't interested in actually listening to other viewpoints about this. Want to tell me why I should waste my time continuing this discussion?

 

[Kylie]

I'd like to know how they know....what the indicators are.

You literally linked me to a page filled with theory....which would be more significant if it wasn't psychological theory. Psychological theory is weak and often untestable.

You see...you're accepting the claims uncritically. Do you accept this claim uncritically as well?
What Does gender-fluid Mean? | Gender & Sexuality by Dictionary.com

That's basically a "trans identity" that can change...back and forth...between genders or neither gender, at any time. It's rather strongly contrasted with the idea you're putting forth about a trans person being quite firmly stuck in a gender identity that doesn't match their physical appearance.

Do you accept this uncritically as well?

You seem to be stuck on this idea that if you can't personally understand something, then the claims of those who experience it can't be relied on.

If you were blind, would you be similarly critical of the colour red?

 

[Strathos]

For a start, there's no evidence to show that a person's gender identity not matching their body is a delusion. I'm not aware of any reputable health organisation that treats it as such.

Secondly, I've already pointed out how belief in God is a person making a statement about the universe external to themselves, while a person making a statement about their gender identity is making a statement about themselves, not the universe external to them.

What if someone told you they were God? That's making a statement about themselves. Would you believe it?

 

[Kylie]

What if someone told you they were God? That's making a statement about themselves. Would you believe it?

Are you actually equating that being trans is like being god? I mean, what if they told you they had just returned from Cambodia? Are we to refuse to accept ANY claim from them without a ton of evidence? Why do you treat a person being trans as being as difficult to believe as them being God?

 

[Ken-1122]

Wow, you don't read my posts, do you?

I'm talking about how black people are more likely to be killed by cops. I'm talking about the people being killed, not the people doing the killing.

Didn’t you understand what I said? Black people are more likely to live in a high crime neighborhood, and anybody living in a high crime neighborhood is more likely to receive mistreatment from the cops! What part of this do you not understand?

Maybe refusing to respect a person's wishes about how they wish to be treated?

It has nothing to do with treatment.

So you're concerned about things that don't concern you.

This conversation is about the people in the USA not other countries. That’s why I said “What goes on in other countries is not my concern.” to bring people from other countries into the conversation would be a change of subject.

To say I’m not concerned about other people implies I don’t care about anybody else which is not true.

You've made it clear that you aren't interested in actually listening to other viewpoints about this.

If I weren’t actually listening to what you were saying, I would not have been able to voice my objections to what you were saying.

Want to tell me why I should waste my time continuing this discussion?

I think it is in your best interest to continue this discussion. You’ve got a lot to learn, and discussing with me will give you an opportunity to learn and grow

 

[Strathos]

Are you actually equating that being trans is like being god? I mean, what if they told you they had just returned from Cambodia? Are we to refuse to accept ANY claim from them without a ton of evidence? Why do you treat a person being trans as being as difficult to believe as them being God?

Well the only criteria you used was differentiating between claims about a person and claims external to them.

 

[Ana the Ist]

You seem to be stuck on this idea that if you can't personally understand something, then the claims of those who experience it can't be relied on.

If you were blind, would you be similarly critical of the colour red?

Not at all.

There's a rather clear explanation for "red"...rods and cones, reflected light, and so on. I don't need to rely on vague and undefined explanations like "an innate sense".

Furthermore...it's got nothing to do with my inability to "understand" something and more to do with the lack of a coherent explanation.

 

[Kylie]

It has nothing to do with treatment.

The majority of problems trans people face are entirely about how they are treated by others.

If I weren’t actually listening to what you were saying, I would not have been able to voice my objections to what you were saying.

And yet you've never been able to explain why you object to the simple idea of addressing trans people the way they ask you to. Right from the very first post you have made your excuses as to why you will refer to them the way you decide they should be addressed as instead of how they ask you to.

I think it is in your best interest to continue this discussion. You’ve got a lot to learn, and discussing with me will give you an opportunity to learn and grow

Wow, that's arrogant. I don't share your views, so I'M the one who needs to learn and grow.

My attitude is that if someone asks me to address them as a woman, I shall do so. Pray tell, what part of that indicates I need to learn and grow in this issue?

 

[Kylie]

Well the only criteria you used was differentiating between claims about a person and claims external to them.

A person's gender identity is internal to that person.

A god is external to the person claiming the god's existence.

 

[Strathos]

A person's gender identity is internal to that person.

A god is external to the person claiming the god's existence.

Not if they claim that they themselves are God.

 

[Kylie]

Not at all.

There's a rather clear explanation for "red"...rods and cones, reflected light, and so on. I don't need to rely on vague and undefined explanations like "an innate sense".

Furthermore...it's got nothing to do with my inability to "understand" something and more to do with the lack of a coherent explanation.

You miss my point.

You can talk about wavelengths, rods, cones, reflected light etc all you want, but the blind person will never have the UNDERSTANDING of light that you do. They will never know what it is like to actually EXPERIENCE it. Yet that doesn't make your experience of it less valid, and they'd be a fool to say that your idea of the experience of red is meaningless just because they can't have it.

Likewise, you may not be able to comprehend the idea of gender identity, yet that doesn't mean that those who experience problems because their gender identity doesn't match their bodies shouldn't be taken at their word.

 

[Kylie]

Not if they claim that they themselves are God.

So, as I said, dismissing the claims of trans people only works if you are saying that someone claiming they are trans is equivalent to someone claiming they are God.

 

[Strathos]

So, as I said, dismissing the claims of trans people only works if you are saying that someone claiming they are trans is equivalent to someone claiming they are God.

For the purposes of your binary distinction (claims external to themselves and claims applying only to themselves), then it is.

 

[Ken-1122]

The majority of problems trans people face are entirely about how they are treated by others.

I think that's the case for most people.

And yet you've never been able to explain why you object to the simple idea of addressing trans people the way they ask you to.

Because I find their request to be unreasonable.