A simple fix for the Transgender issue.

[Kylie]

The same reason we should pay any attention to your admittedly uneducated opinion on what is relevant (remember you are’t a doctor either) because we are having a conversation with each other; not a doctor.

That's why I listen to the doctors and the trans people themselves instead of you.

No kidding! What gave you the impression I was unaware of this?

Well, let's see. You absolutely refused to answer the question and instead tried to deflect it by talking about hormones.

If that were true, I would have ignored the article rather than read it then point out it’s flaws.

I've found that doesn't work, because then I'd have just said that you didn't read the article and you'd lose face. So instead you read it, find whatever flaws you can and play them up while ignoring the actual important things. Which is why you've spent the last god knows how long quibbling over words instead of addressing the issues raised.

I did explain why. Remember that part about they having a little catching up to do?

A very vague assertion, which doesn't really mesh with reality, since gender equality started becoming a thing long ago enough that we should be seeing more of it by now. And you provided not a single shred of support.

I said leadership experience, not CEO experience. And attitudes are in a constant state of change.

So now you agree that attitudes towards gender roles can change despite you saying earlier that they no longer existed?

You have obviously misunderstood what I said.

And yet you seem incapable of clarifying what you meant.

Notice I said modern culture what you are describing is not modern culture.

People today are attacked for being trans. People today are attacked for being gay. In what way do you think this is not a modern culture?

What you are describing is extremely rare. That is the exception not the rule. And thanks for pointing out that you are not from America, I had assumed you were.

Again, you make a claim and provide no support. Have a look at how many people are against the idea of a woman president. Don't tell me it's rare.

Cultural ideas about the roles men and women should fulfill? I’m saying anybody who has a problem with their culture’s ideas about the roles men and women should fulfill should find a different culture to be a part of, because in America, there are plenty of cultures where such roles do not even exist.

Do you understand that the people who attack trans people for going against gender roles don't actually have a problem with the culture that encourages them to carry out such attacks?

 

[Ken-1122]

Well, let's see. You absolutely refused to answer the question and instead tried to deflect it by talking about hormones.

The fact that I mentioned intersex should have answered your question, and I brought up hormones to make a point (that you obviously missed)

I've found that doesn't work, because then I'd have just said that you didn't read the article and you'd lose face. So instead you read it, find whatever flaws you can and play them up while ignoring the actual important things. Which is why you've spent the last god knows how long quibbling over words instead of addressing the issues raised.

In your view, what is the difference between quibbling over word play, vs pointing out legitimate flaws in something said?

A very vague assertion, which doesn't really mesh with reality, since gender equality started becoming a thing long ago enough that we should be seeing more of it by now. And you provided not a single shred of support.

Speaking of "very vague assertions" (as you say)since gender equality started becoming a thing long ago, we should be seeing more it by now; I ask you how much more? And what do you base this on? And is this based on your country? Or mine. (since this seems to be a thing with you) Please support your answer with a source showing how the attitudes changed at the time you said they did.

So now you agree that attitudes towards gender roles can change despite you saying earlier that they no longer existed?

I said a single American culture doesn’t exist

People today are attacked for being trans. People today are attacked for being gay. In what way do you think this is not a modern culture?

You think attacking gays and trans is something new? I don’t know about your country, but that has been going on in America forever. It isn’t as popular today, but there are some people who still hang on to those old cultures; modern culture is much more tolerant of them

Again, you make a claim and provide no support. Have a look at how many people are against the idea of a woman president. Don't tell me it's rare.

Who are these people who are against a female president? In America we came inches away from getting one; the only reason she was not elected is because she was a very bad politician who was trying to ride on the coat tails of her husband and was very much disliked when her husband was in office. She ran representing everything a lot of people saw what was wrong with the country at that time, and some new guy comes in with a new message and slightly beat her out. Don’t tell me it’s not rare.

Do you understand that the people who attack trans people for going against gender roles don't actually have a problem with the culture that encourages them to carry out such attacks?

I’m talking about the people who believe their cultural roles do not align with their biological sex. Instead of surgery, find another culture!

 

[Kylie]

The fact that I mentioned intersex should have answered your question, and I brought up hormones to make a point (that you obviously missed)

So you tried to change the subject rather than answer the question? I already asked you what would indicate to the doctor that the baby was intersex, since all they've done is have a look and seen a penis. And you avoided answering.

In your view, what is the difference between quibbling over word play, vs pointing out legitimate flaws in something said?

If I said that glow in the dark stickers work because of fluorescence, and then you spent several posts saying that it's phosphorescence and that I obviously was wrong and my understanding should be ignored because I had no idea what I was talking about, that's quibbling over word play.

If I said glow in the dark stickers worked because there were tiny little LED lights embedded in them connected to miniature solar panels and that's why you had to put them in light, so the solar panels could charge tiny batteries and those batteries powered the little LED lights, then that would be a legitimate flaw.

Speaking of "very vague assertions" (as you say)since gender equality started becoming a thing long ago, we should be seeing more it by now; I ask you how much more? And what do you base this on? And is this based on your country? Or mine. (since this seems to be a thing with you) Please support your answer with a source showing how the attitudes changed at the time you said they did.

I'm just pointing out that gender attitudes have been changing for the last twenty years or so. One could argue that the first steps were taken longer ago than that, but for the sake of simplicity, I won't. Twenty years is a significant time when it comes to people's careers, so we should be seeing the results of the efforts that people have been putting in by now, yes?

I said a single American culture doesn’t exist

Okay, let's recap...

Post 673, you said, "This idea that cultures of today have standards about the way men and women should behave and think has been dispelled years ago."

Post 675, I said, "Why do you think that these things can't change."

Post 677, you said, "Because they don’t exist."

So you were saying that the standards of how men and women act and think no longer exist. Once upon a time, men were supposed to think one set of things and act in one set of ways, and the way women were supposed to think and act was from completely different sets. In other words, if I described to you how a person thought and acted, you would be able to tell me if that person was a man or a woman. "Person X likes playing with babies and picking flowers, and relaxes by knitting." You could conclude this person was a woman. "Person Y likes building furniture and has a job building houses." You would conclude that this person was a man. And this idea, that men and women have expected roles in society, no longer exists, you claim.

But now, you are trying to claim you were never talking about the standards for men and women, you were talking about a single American culture.

What you now claim you were talking about just doesn't make sense, because your whole argument was that it once existed but doesn't any more. But there was NEVER a single American culture. Your statements are clearly talking about the standards that men and women are expected to follow, but even if we were to try and twist it into a statement about American culture, it's STILL wrong!

You think attacking gays and trans is something new? I don’t know about your country, but that has been going on in America forever. It isn’t as popular today, but there are some people who still hang on to those old cultures; modern culture is much more tolerant of them

Yes, I agree, modern culture is much more tolerant. But you are proving my point - I have ALWAYS said that the roles that men and women have followed in society were changing, and even though they are becoming closer, there are still differences. You have changed your tone and are now agreeing with me.

Who are these people who are against a female president? In America we came inches away from getting one; the only reason she was not elected is because she was a very bad politician who was trying to ride on the coat tails of her husband and was very much disliked when her husband was in office. She ran representing everything a lot of people saw what was wrong with the country at that time, and some new guy comes in with a new message and slightly beat her out. Don’t tell me it’s not rare.

Love how you say that Hillary lost because she was a bad politician. If she lost because she was a bad politician, how did Trump get it? Is he a better politician?

And look at all those people who were willing to believe any bad thing about Hillary when they make excuses to justify all the bad things about trump.

I’m talking about the people who believe their cultural roles do not align with their biological sex. Instead of surgery, find another culture!

Ah yes, because there are just SO MANY places in the world where trans people can live the way they want in peace.

And also, do you really think that if a person has dysphoria - the innate sense that their body is wrong because it has, say, a penis when they identify as a woman - that simply going to another place with a different culture is going to fix that? What in the world gives you that idea?

Thirdly, why should a person have to uproot themselves from where they grown and lived and made a life for themselves just to solve this problem?

And finally, why should it be the person who changes? Why can't we expect them to be able to live peacefully wherever they want? Do they not have that right?

 

[Ken-1122]

So you tried to change the subject rather than answer the question? I already asked you what would indicate to the doctor that the baby was intersex, since all they've done is have a look and seen a penis. And you avoided answering.

I don’t have an answer for you; I don’t know. You claim the only thing a doctor does is look at the sex organs and I guess I’m supposed to take your word for it since you've provided nothing to back up your claim. Do intersex babies have a certain look (like down syndrome) that would cause the doctor to look further? I don’t know. Do you have an answer?

If I said that glow in the dark stickers work because of fluorescence, and then you spent several posts saying that it's phosphorescence and that I obviously was wrong and my understanding should be ignored because I had no idea what I was talking about, that's quibbling over word play.

If I said glow in the dark stickers worked because there were tiny little LED lights embedded in them connected to miniature solar panels and that's why you had to put them in light, so the solar panels could charge tiny batteries and those batteries powered the little LED lights, then that would be a legitimate flaw.

So if it said the doctor assigns the sex of the baby and people understand the doctor is making a decision about their lives, is that a legitimate flaw?

I'm just pointing out that gender attitudes have been changing for the last twenty years or so. One could argue that the first steps were taken longer ago than that, but for the sake of simplicity, I won't. Twenty years is a significant time when it comes to people's careers, so we should be seeing the results of the efforts that people have been putting in by now, yes?

I agree. And we have been seeing results; yes?

Okay, let's recap...

Post 673, you said, "This idea that cultures of today have standards about the way men and women should behave and think has been dispelled years ago."

Post 675, I said, "Why do you think that these things can't change."

Post 677, you said, "Because they don’t exist."

So you were saying that the standards of how men and women act and think no longer exist. Once upon a time, men were supposed to think one set of things and act in one set of ways, and the way women were supposed to think and act was from completely different sets. In other words, if I described to you how a person thought and acted, you would be able to tell me if that person was a man or a woman. "Person X likes playing with babies and picking flowers, and relaxes by knitting." You could conclude this person was a woman. "Person Y likes building furniture and has a job building houses." You would conclude that this person was a man. And this idea, that men and women have expected roles in society, no longer exists, you claim.

But now, you are trying to claim you were never talking about the standards for men and women, you were talking about a single American culture.

What you now claim you were talking about just doesn't make sense, because your whole argument was that it once existed but doesn't any more. But there was NEVER a single American culture. Your statements are clearly talking about the standards that men and women are expected to follow, but even if we were to try and twist it into a statement about American culture, it's STILL wrong!

Though there may have never been an single american culture, there are some things nearly every culture will have in common. Roles men are supposed to play vs the roles women are supposed to play (though they have always varied from culture to culture) was something they all pretty much used to have in common. Today I’m saying this is no longer something all cultures have in common anymore.

Yes, I agree, modern culture is much more tolerant. But you are proving my point - I have ALWAYS said that the roles that men and women have followed in society were changing, and even though they are becoming closer, there are still differences. You have changed your tone and are now agreeing with me.

Sounds like you are agreeing with me; after all you did admit people who attack trans are not a part of modern culture.

Love how you say that Hillary lost because she was a bad politician. If she lost because she was a bad politician, how did Trump get it? Is he a better politician?

Trump ran on being a business man, not a politician. Remember; when he ran, the Republicans hated him! Before he won the nomination, there was talk that the Republicans were not going to allow him to receive the nomination even if he won it fair and square! But the people wanted him and because they preferred him over a democrat, they had no choice but to give him the republican nomination and go against Hilary.

And look at all those people who were willing to believe any bad thing about Hillary when they make excuses to justify all the bad things about trump.

Trump spent his entire life being a jerk nobody expected him to all of a sudden become presidential and professional once in office. A lot of people did not like what Obama represented, so they elected the polar opposite of Obama to get Trump.

Ah yes, because there are just SO MANY places in the world where trans people can live the way they want in peace.

Can’t speak for other places in the world, but in the United States? Yes; there are so many places in the US where trans people can live the way they want in peace.

And also, do you really think that if a person has dysphoria - the innate sense that their body is wrong because it has, say, a penis when they identify as a woman - that simply going to another place with a different culture is going to fix that? What in the world gives you that idea?

Well apparently, according to some doctors, hormone treatment and reassignment surgery doesn't help either. but don't tell the powers that be that.
'They're Not Fine': Why Surgery Doesn't Help People With Gender Dysphoria | The Stream

​

Thirdly, why should a person have to uproot themselves from where they grown and lived and made a life for themselves just to solve this problem?

In the US, you don’t need to go to a different place in order to get with a different culture, there are cultures all around you; just pick another one if you don't like the one you are in

And finally, why should it be the person who changes? Why can't we expect them to be able to live peacefully wherever they want? Do they not have that right?

Why do you think the trans person needs to change in order to live peacefully? I’m not sure where you’re getting at here.

 

[Kylie]

I don’t have an answer for you; I don’t know. You claim the only thing a doctor does is look at the sex organs and I guess I’m supposed to take your word for it since you've provided nothing to back up your claim. Do intersex babies have a certain look (like down syndrome) that would cause the doctor to look further? I don’t know. Do you have an answer?

So we have a baby that has a penis but XX chromosomes. When the baby is born, the doctors checks sex simply by looking at the genitals. Since the doctor sees a penis, he will write M on the birth certificate.

You say that I've given nothing to support the claim that a visual check is all that's done. Do you have any children? If so, did the doctor do anything other than a visual check? Did you have a doctor say, "Well, the child has a penis, but we better check the chromosomes to be sure"?

So if it said the doctor assigns the sex of the baby and people understand the doctor is making a decision about their lives, is that a legitimate flaw?

Well, there are trans people out there. How do you think they feel about it? Someone saying they should be a boy just because they have a penis?

I agree. And we have been seeing results; yes?

Only 5% or so. Given that the length of time passed is quite a long time when compared with the average length of a person's career, why have we not seen a higher level of results? Maybe because the change is not so great as you would like to think. Maybe because, despite your assertions to the contrary, there are still a lot of people out there who think women just aren't suited to positions of power.

Though there may have never been an single american culture, there are some things nearly every culture will have in common. Roles men are supposed to play vs the roles women are supposed to play (though they have always varied from culture to culture) was something they all pretty much used to have in common. Today I’m saying this is no longer something all cultures have in common anymore.

The fact that there are some areas where men and women are viewed as free to do what they like does not change the fact that the majority of cultures found in the world still assign gender roles to people. And those cultures still exert a great deal of influence.

Sounds like you are agreeing with me; after all you did admit people who attack trans are not a part of modern culture.

The fact they exist in the present means they are modern.

Can’t speak for other places in the world, but in the United States? Yes; there are so many places in the US where trans people can live the way they want in peace.

And where are these places? What gives you the idea that trans people will never be attacked there?

Well apparently, according to some doctors, hormone treatment and reassignment surgery doesn't help either. but don't tell the powers that be that.
'They're Not Fine': Why Surgery Doesn't Help People With Gender Dysphoria | The Stream

So people who are trans are, for some reason, a lot more likely to have a different condition that increases the chance of suicide? And this Walt Heyer person has a ministry. So that worries me - their view of the issue is coloured by their religious beliefs.

​

In the US, you don’t need to go to a different place in order to get with a different culture, there are cultures all around you; just pick another one if you don't like the one you are in

So when your coworkers harass and bully you because you are trans, then the solution is to get a new bunch of friends but keep going to the same job?

How is that supposed to work?

Why do you think the trans person needs to change in order to live peacefully? I’m not sure where you’re getting at here.

I think you need to read what I wrote again. I never said that it should be the trans person who changes. I am asking why they should change. Why should they have to change the culture they are a part of in order to have a happy life? They shouldn't have to. You are the one who said that trans people should change their culture instead of having surgery.

 

[Ken-1122]

So we have a baby that has a penis but XX chromosomes. When the baby is born, the doctors checks sex simply by looking at the genitals. Since the doctor sees a penis, he will write M on the birth certificate.

I have never refuted that, and I also said I am sure mistakes are occasionally made and when they are, I am sure corrections will be made later. But what do trans people have to do with the rare instance of a baby being born with XX chromosomes and male sex organs?

Well, there are trans people out there. How do you think they feel about it? Someone saying they should be a boy just because they have a penis?

Well obviously they have a problem with it hence our conversation, but if a person has male sex organs, and XY chromosomes, why does it matter if you are labeled a boy?

Only 5% or so. Given that the length of time passed is quite a long time when compared with the average length of a person's career, why have we not seen a higher level of results? Maybe because the change is not so great as you would like to think. Maybe because, despite your assertions to the contrary, there are still a lot of people out there who think women just aren't suited to positions of power.

Only 5%? what do you base that on? Are you just pulling numbers out of the air, or do you have something to actually back that up?

The fact that there are some areas where men and women are viewed as free to do what they like does not change the fact that the majority of cultures found in the world still assign gender roles to people. And those cultures still exert a great deal of influence.

I couldn't care less about what’s happening in the rest of the world, I’m talking about what’s going on in the US. Trans people in San Francisco are not trippin’ because of what’s going on in Timbuktu.

The fact they exist in the present means they are modern.

My friend recently restored his 1957 chevy. Does the fact that this car exists in the present make it a modern car?

And where are these places?

Name any place in America.

What gives you the idea that trans people will never be attacked there?

Nobody is exempt from attack in America, but that doesn’t mean nobody is able to live as they choose in peace.

So people who are trans are, for some reason, a lot more likely to have a different condition that increases the chance of suicide?

It said most transgender people have more than one disorder, and the other disorders often go undiagnosed, and are instead given hormones and surgery.

And this Walt Heyer person has a ministry. So that worries me - their view of the issue is coloured by their religious beliefs.

Endocrinologist Charles Ihlenfeld was the doctor I was referring to, and he does not have a ministry. However, if he did, how is that different from your link from “Planed Parenthood”? You don’t think Planned Parenthood’s views are coloured by an agenda?

So when your coworkers harass and bully you because you are trans, then the solution is to get a new bunch of friends but keep going to the same job?

How is that supposed to work?

Every worksite in America is required to have the EEOC laws posted somewhere at work. You go to your boss, or your Human Resource department and make a complaint against this person who is harassing you, and your Boss or Human Resource department official is required by law to address it. In America, EEOC lawsuits are taken very seriously by business.

I think you need to read what I wrote again. I never said that it should be the trans person who changes. I am asking why they should change. Why should they have to change the culture they are a part of in order to have a happy life? They shouldn't have to. You are the one who said that trans people should change their culture instead of having surgery.

If you like “uphill battles” feel free to try to change the culture; however it would probably be easier to just find another culture if you aren’t happy with the one you find yourself in.

 

[stevevw]

From my understanding most of the time when an intersex baby is born it is not a case of a baby may have normally formed genitals that can be mistaken for the opposite sex. There is usually some sign out of the norm that causes the doctor to stop and investigate things. But if a doctor occasionally gets the diagnosis wrong and says that a baby girl is a boy then they have made the wrong diagnosis. If they say at first sight that a mother has had a normal baby and later they find a problem or a doctor says the baby has a certain problem and later they find it is something else then the doctor has made the wrong diagnosis.

Misdiagnosis happens and you cannot blame the doctor or the method of diagnosis. The initial medical diagnosis is based physical signs and symptoms and just because they may get it wrong sometimes does not mean we should stop using physical diagnosis as the way to tell what is going on with people.

 

[Ken-1122]

From my understanding most of the time when an intersex baby is born it is not a case of a baby may have normally formed genitals that can be mistaken for the opposite sex. There is usually some sign out of the norm that causes the doctor to stop and investigate things. But if a doctor occasionally gets the diagnosis wrong and says that a baby girl is a boy then they have made the wrong diagnosis. If they say at first sight that a mother has had a normal baby and later they find a problem or a doctor says the baby has a certain problem and later they find it is something else then the doctor has made the wrong diagnosis.

Misdiagnosis happens and you cannot blame the doctor or the method of diagnosis. The initial medical diagnosis is based physical signs and symptoms and just because they may get it wrong sometimes does not mean we should stop using physical diagnosis as the way to tell what is going on with people.

Excellent points.

 

[Kylie]

I have never refuted that, and I also said I am sure mistakes are occasionally made and when they are, I am sure corrections will be made later. But what do trans people have to do with the rare instance of a baby being born with XX chromosomes and male sex organs?

Corrections will be made?

Such a correction would only happen IF the person has their chromosomes checked. That is not part of any general check up and will only be done for a specific reason. Since people with this condition are outwardly male, there would be no reason to suspect that they have this condition, so that's not why such a check would be made.

And even if it was made, do you think the doctor would come in and say, "Mr Smith, while we were checking your chromosomes for a completely unrelated purpose, we found that you're actually XX and thus a woman. You'll now need to start living as a woman. We've already made the alteration to your birth certificate."

Exactly what corrections do you think will be made?

Well obviously they have a problem with it hence our conversation, but if a person has male sex organs, and XY chromosomes, why does it matter if you are labeled a boy?

For a start, we've already established that the presence of a penis does not always mean you are XY.

Secondly, there are plenty of people with a penis who feel in the very core of their being that they are NOT a boy.

Only 5%? what do you base that on? Are you just pulling numbers out of the air, or do you have something to actually back that up?

If you had bothered to read my posts, you'll see that in post 686 I gave the figure of 24 female CEOs in Fortune 500 companies. Now, since Fortune 500 is literally 500 companies who are among the biggest, that means there are 24 female CEOs in 500 companies, or about 5%.

Oh, and you also would have seen that I provided a link to my source.

I couldn't care less about what’s happening in the rest of the world, I’m talking about what’s going on in the US. Trans people in San Francisco are not trippin’ because of what’s going on in Timbuktu.

Does not change my point that there are still plenty of places where people are attacked for stepping outside gender norms.

My friend recently restored his 1957 chevy. Does the fact that this car exists in the present make it a modern car?

Let's see...

If we say that someone is part of an old culture, say, a culture that started in the 1950s, does that mean those people who are part of that culture today are still living exactly as they did in the 1950s? No, because they most likely use computers and mobile phones and all the wonderful advances we have made.

Your friends 1957 Chevy, on the other hand... Does it have bluetooth? Air conditioning? Power windows? Does it have any of the features that were developed afterwards?

There's a difference between old fashioned existing in the modern age and an old fashioned idea that has adapted to incorporate modern things.

Name any place in America.

Name any place in America? I ask you to name a place "in the US where trans people can live the way they want in peace", and you say any place in America will be such a place?

Okay, how about Clewiston, 50 miles west of West Palm Beach? Oh wait, no, that doesn't work. Bee Love Slater, a trans African American woman was killed there, her body found on September 4 this year.

How about Dallas? Oh wait, no, that doesn't work either. Trans woman Daniela Calderon Rivera was attacked and nearly killed, her attacker saying that he hated women like her. And that was in October of this year.

Here's a list of more trans people who have been killed in the USA, and just from this year. List of unlawfully killed transgender people - Wikipedia

Perhaps you'd like to try to tell me that these people were all killed for reasons OTHER than being trans?

Nobody is exempt from attack in America, but that doesn’t mean nobody is able to live as they choose in peace.

Ah, so even if people can't ACTUALLY live in peace, they all have the right to live in peace wherever they are in the USA. So a trans woman has the right to identify as a woman, without people telling them things like, "When I address you as a he, I'm referring to your biological sex, not your gender." And a trans man shouldn't have to live where people say things like, "You shouldn’t assume I am addressing your identification when I call you she, you should assume I am referring to your biology."

I agree completely. Things like that have no place in the America you claim exists.

It said most transgender people have more than one disorder, and the other disorders often go undiagnosed, and are instead given hormones and surgery.

Ah, it is said, what a wonderful argument. And of course, that proves that no trans person ever feels dysphoria because they are trans, no, it's always because of these other disorders they have. Wow, it's amazing that these other disorders that cause the dysphoria aren't ever had by non-trans people, otherwise we'd see lots of non-trans people claiming that they have dysphoria as well!

Endocrinologist Charles Ihlenfeld was the doctor I was referring to, and he does not have a ministry.

Ah yes, he said, "“There is too much unhappiness among people who have the surgery... Too many of them end as suicides.” And then forgot to give any actual numbers.

However, if he did, how is that different from your link from “Planed Parenthood”? You don’t think Planned Parenthood’s views are coloured by an agenda?

Stop trying to derail the conversation. We are not talking about planned Parenthood, we are not talking about contraception or anything like that. We are talking about how ignoring the fact that people are trans is not going to solve the problems that trans people face.

Every worksite in America is required to have the EEOC laws posted somewhere at work. You go to your boss, or your Human Resource department and make a complaint against this person who is harassing you, and your Boss or Human Resource department official is required by law to address it. In America, EEOC lawsuits are taken very seriously by business.

And of course, everyone is happy to abide by those regulations, and no one ever breaks them!

If you like “uphill battles” feel free to try to change the culture; however it would probably be easier to just find another culture if you aren’t happy with the one you find yourself in.

The fact that trans people are more accepted now (even if not entirely) than they were back in the 1950s shows that the culture is changing. And it doesn't involve ignoring it.

 

[Kylie]

From my understanding most of the time when an intersex baby is born it is not a case of a baby may have normally formed genitals that can be mistaken for the opposite sex. There is usually some sign out of the norm that causes the doctor to stop and investigate things. But if a doctor occasionally gets the diagnosis wrong and says that a baby girl is a boy then they have made the wrong diagnosis. If they say at first sight that a mother has had a normal baby and later they find a problem or a doctor says the baby has a certain problem and later they find it is something else then the doctor has made the wrong diagnosis.

Misdiagnosis happens and you cannot blame the doctor or the method of diagnosis. The initial medical diagnosis is based physical signs and symptoms and just because they may get it wrong sometimes does not mean we should stop using physical diagnosis as the way to tell what is going on with people.

Intersex and transgender are not the same things, and I doubt many trans people would agree that being trans means that they have some problem.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Secondly, there are plenty of people with a penis who feel in the very core of their being that they are NOT a boy.

What does that mean? Is there some feeling that only boys have? Is there some feeling only girls have?

 

[Ken-1122]

Corrections will be made?

Such a correction would only happen IF the person has their chromosomes checked. That is not part of any general check up and will only be done for a specific reason. Since people with this condition are outwardly male, there would be no reason to suspect that they have this condition, so that's not why such a check would be made.

And even if it was made, do you think the doctor would come in and say, "Mr Smith, while we were checking your chromosomes for a completely unrelated purpose, we found that you're actually XX and thus a woman. You'll now need to start living as a woman. We've already made the alteration to your birth certificate."

Exactly what corrections do you think will be made?

Are you saying the rare occurrence of a baby being born XX with male sex organs, that the male sex organs are perfectly developed without any hint of deformity? If so, how do you know this?

For a start, we've already established that the presence of a penis does not always mean you are XY.

Secondly, there are plenty of people with a penis who feel in the very core of their being that they are NOT a boy.

To feel in the very core of your being, that you are not a boy? What does it mean to feel like you are not a boy? Perhaps they have a distorted view of what it means to be a boy.

Does not change my point that there are still plenty of places where people are attacked for stepping outside gender norms.

What goes on in other countries is not my concern.

Let's see...

If we say that someone is part of an old culture, say, a culture that started in the 1950s, does that mean those people who are part of that culture today are still living exactly as they did in the 1950s? No, because they most likely use computers and mobile phones and all the wonderful advances we have made.

Your friends 1957 Chevy, on the other hand... Does it have bluetooth? Air conditioning? Power windows? Does it have any of the features that were developed afterwards?

There's a difference between old fashioned existing in the modern age and an old fashioned idea that has adapted to incorporate modern things.

So it is your claim that because these people use technology of today, they are a part of modern culture? Does a 57 Chevy driving on modern roads make it a modern car?

Name any place in America? I ask you to name a place "in the US where trans people can live the way they want in peace", and you say any place in America will be such a place?

Okay, how about Clewiston, 50 miles west of West Palm Beach? Oh wait, no, that doesn't work. Bee Love Slater, a trans African American woman was killed there, her body found on September 4 this year.

How about Dallas? Oh wait, no, that doesn't work either. Trans woman Daniela Calderon Rivera was attacked and nearly killed, her attacker saying that he hated women like her. And that was in October of this year.

Here's a list of more trans people who have been killed in the USA, and just from this year. List of unlawfully killed transgender people - Wikipedia

Perhaps you'd like to try to tell me that these people were all killed for reasons OTHER than being trans?

Those examples are the exception not the rule for those places. I can point to thousands of trans people living as they want to in the City of Dallas, Palm Beach or where ever, and I can just as easily point to rare examples of people in nearly any city in the US where someone was attacked because they were black, white, male, female, wearing a blue jacket or a red hat, etc. does this mean such people cannot live comfortable? No, as I said before nobody in america is exempt from attack.

Ah, so even if people can't ACTUALLY live in peace, they all have the right to live in peace wherever they are in the USA. So a trans woman has the right to identify as a woman, without people telling them things like, "When I address you as a he, I'm referring to your biological sex, not your gender." And a trans man shouldn't have to live where people say things like, "You shouldn’t assume I am addressing your identification when I call you she, you should assume I am referring to your biology."

I agree completely. Things like that have no place in the America you claim exists.

Living in peace does not include the ability to control how other people think or what they say.

 

[Kylie]

What does that mean? Is there some feeling that only boys have? Is there some feeling only girls have?

It's called gender identity. Gender identity - Wikipedia

 

[Kylie]

Are you saying the rare occurrence of a baby being born XX with male sex organs, that the male sex organs are perfectly developed without any hint of deformity? If so, how do you know this?

I provided a link regarding this. Did you read it?

To feel in the very core of your being, that you are not a boy? What does it mean to feel like you are not a boy? Perhaps they have a distorted view of what it means to be a boy.

Do you dispute the concept of gender identity?

What goes on in other countries is not my concern.

You seem to have very little concern for others.

So it is your claim that because these people use technology of today, they are a part of modern culture? Does a 57 Chevy driving on modern roads make it a modern car?

Do you really think that's a good argument? Or are you just trolling?

Those examples are the exception not the rule for those places. I can point to thousands of trans people living as they want to in the City of Dallas, Palm Beach or where ever, and I can just as easily point to rare examples of people in nearly any city in the US where someone was attacked because they were black, white, male, female, wearing a blue jacket or a red hat, etc. does this mean such people cannot live comfortable? No, as I said before nobody in america is exempt from attack.

But you seem to ignore the fact that trans people face a much higher risk of attack than a generic white cis male. Your arguments seem to often be based on the fact that you don't look at degrees.

And I can guarantee you that most if not all of the trans people you can point to have faced discrimination because they were trans. So tell me how that's the exception.

Living in peace does not include the ability to control how other people think or what they say.

What about when the person is saying it to the trans person's face? Is the trans person living a peaceful life then?

 

[Ken-1122]

I provided a link regarding this. Did you read it?

Would you mind reposting the link? Perhaps I missed it.

Do you dispute the concept of gender identity?

I don't understand the concept of gender identity.

You seem to have very little concern for others.

I have concern for other people, it's just that I realize I am unable to control what goes on in other countries.

Do you really think that's a good argument? Or are you just trolling?

I'm just trying to understand this method to your madness; it doesn't make sense to me.

But you seem to ignore the fact that trans people face a much higher risk of attack than a generic white cis male. Your arguments seem to often be based on the fact that you don't look at degrees.

And I can guarantee you that most if not all of the trans people you can point to have faced discrimination because they were trans. So tell me how that's the exception.

I along with most black people I know have experienced discrimination at one time or another. Does this mean black people cannot live peacefully in the US?

What about when the person is saying it to the trans person's face? Is the trans person living a peaceful life then?

Can you give an example?

 

[Ana the Ist]

It's called gender identity. Gender identity - Wikipedia

I know what it's called....that's not what I asked you though.

Because there's really only two things that I can imagine we're saying here. We could be saying that someone feels like a man or woman because of physical or biological differences. That, or we could be saying that it's just a "feeling".

Which is it?

 

[stevevw]

Intersex and transgender are not the same things, and I doubt many trans people would agree that being trans means that they have some problem.

I understand that intersex and trans are different. As far as the physical is concerned there can only be differences in genital development for intersex people. Saying that some babies have genital developmental problems does not concern trans people as they usually have normal developed genitals. Saying that there is a problem in development of genitals for intersex people is not denigrating them anymore than a doctor saying there is a heart defect or developmental problem with a babies limb. It is just a diagnosis of their physical developmental. Intersex only affects a very small proportion and you cannot apply what happens to intersex people to trans people.

 

[Kylie]

Would you mind reposting the link? Perhaps I missed it.

It's in post 705. Just ten posts ago. Not that far back.

I don't understand the concept of gender identity.

Funny thing is that you don't need to understand it in order to respect the fact that other people feel it.

I have concern for other people, it's just that I realize I am unable to control what goes on in other countries.

You may want to take more care with the way you phrase it, because when you say things like, "What goes on in other countries is not my concern," it sure sounds like you have no concern.

I along with most black people I know have experienced discrimination at one time or another. Does this mean black people cannot live peacefully in the US?

As an Australian, I have to answer: Yeah, it sure seems like they can't!

Can you give an example?

Yeah, check the first post. The OP talks about doing it.

 

[Kylie]

I know what it's called....that's not what I asked you though.

Because there's really only two things that I can imagine we're saying here. We could be saying that someone feels like a man or woman because of physical or biological differences. That, or we could be saying that it's just a "feeling".

Which is it?

I don't think anyone really knows what causes it. But I know that I have an innate sense of being a woman. when I was little, I could recognise that I was fundamentally different to boys, and I don't mean in the obvious physical ways. It was deeper than that. I had a sense of my own femininity that the boys never had.

There may be some people who don't understand this or even feel it, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist for those who do. I mean, I'll never experience what it is like to have my prostate massaged, since I don't have one. But the fact that it doesn't apply to me doesn't mean it doesn't apply to anyone. And the fact I can never understand it doesn't mean it is irrelevant.

 

[Kylie]

I understand that intersex and trans are different. As far as the physical is concerned there can only be differences in genital development for intersex people. Saying that some babies have genital developmental problems does not concern trans people as they usually have normal developed genitals. Saying that there is a problem in development of genitals for intersex people is not denigrating them anymore than a doctor saying there is a heart defect or developmental problem with a babies limb. It is just a diagnosis of their physical developmental. Intersex only affects a very small proportion and you cannot apply what happens to intersex people to trans people.

You were the one who brought up intersex in this discussion. If you agree that what happens to intersex people can't be applied to what happens to trans people, why did you bring up intersex people in a discussion about trans people?