A simple fix for the Transgender issue.

[Speedwell]

I find this a bit amusing, given the complaints about posts confusing scientific fact with feelings earlier in the thread. In other words, it is great you feel this way, but there's no reason for anyone else to acknowledge those feelings here in public.

It's just been nothing but a rambling, long-winded defense of the literal inerrancy of Genesis 1:27.

 

[stevevw]

And do you feel that address people by their preferred pronouns is one such area?

As mentioned in an earlier post if someone asked me to use their preferred pronouns then I would do so.

You do know that a trans woman isn't just a man in a dress, right? If they are taking hormones, then the effects of those hormones pretty much removes any physical advantage they would have had.

It is not as simple as that. Hormones is only one part of the physical side of gender. It does not remove genitals and many transgender women do not want to go that far. In fact some do not want to even use hormones as they can have bad side effects like making a person sterile and causing cancer in some cases. So there is a range of physical states that a transgender women can have. But like I said If a person can transition completely somehow in the future then I guess they have physically changed themselves to the opposite sex as well.

"As Joanna Harper explains, "Once a trans woman starts on antiandrogen drugs as part of HRT, then her testosterone levels quickly fall to female norms. This is followed by a rapid reduction in the percentage of red blood cells in the blood stream, again to female levels. The lower hematocrit levels have a dramatic effect on endurance sports such as running or cycling. The lower T levels also will cause muscle mass atrophy. The loss of strength is not as rapid, nor as complete, as the loss of endurance, but trans women will lose much of their strength advantage over cisgender women."" SOURCE

That does not account for transgender women dominating women's sports already. If they are dominating then they must have greater capability not because they are a women but because they are a male presenting as a women. The problem is most transition after puberty when the main differences from males and females kick in such as males having larger bone structures, more muscle mass, bigger hearts, lungs and greater respiratory and blood circulatory systems. Some transition after already developing as a male athlete so they have developed their bodies to maximum capacity as a male. Hormone replacement therapy will not reverse most of this as it has already been developed. But sports is only one aspect of the physical side I am talking about. There are other implications to do with women's privacy and medical situations as well where biology is important.

What about mental disabilities? A person with a mental disability literally feels that way in their mind, just the same way that a person who can't walk feels that way in their legs, for example.

But we have tests and diagnosis that will determine that mental illness so we can know what the conditions are. So someone with a mental illness may think they are hearing voices but we can know that those voices are not really there are are only in the mind. At the same time we would not say that those voices are real and something to encourage as they have no basis. Just as we should not encourage people to take hormones immediately and get surgery to change their physical state because a state of mind is telling them they are the opposite sex. We should seek therapy and perhaps allow things to sort out as most people will realign in their minds with their bodies.

And there are literally zero DNA markers for ethnicity.
"Genetic methods do not support the classification of humans into discrete races, [and] racial assumptions are not good biological guideposts. Races are not genetically homogenous and lack clear-cut genetic boundaries." SOURCE

Of course there are markers for ethnicity. Many people such as those who use Ancestry.com have done DNA tests to discover their ethnicity. It may come back that a person is 60% Italian, 20% Spanish, 10% Scandinavian and 5% British. Some have even shown people are a small % Neanderthal.
Guide to Ethnic DNA Testing: How to Prove Your Ancestors’ Ethnicity

The article you have linked is about race and not ethnicity. They are saying that race has been attributed certain traits like people who are black have certain behaviors and those who are Asian think a certain way based on social and cultural constructions which I agree with the article. That can foster racism. But ethnicity is different as it is about heritage such as being Italian because they had an Italian parent. But even race has certain physical aspects that cannot be determined by social construction like gender. For example we can tell what race a person comes from to an extent by their physical features such as a negro with negro parents is usually darker skinned. A person with dark skin cannot claim they are a white person if they feel they are in their mind.

There is a huge amount of evidence that the physical construction of a person and their sense of gender are two very different things.

Yes I agree, gender use to be determined as a social and cultural construction and that was fine by everyone a decade ago. But suddenly there has been a change and now people say that the way a person feels is the only way we can determine gender and that the physical aspects have nothing to do with it. Science shows that biology is part of gender and affects the way a person experiences gender as well. It infiltrates every cell in our body.

 

[Ken-1122]

The scientists who study this disagree with you, and I'm inclined to believe them rather than you.

Scientists don't agree on this issue either. Below is an example of a scientist who disagree with you and agree with me.
Professor of physiology says transgender athletes have advantage in speed, power
If what you say is true, there should be as many trans men dominating male sports as we have trans females dominating female sports; right? So where are all of the examples of trans men dominating male sports?

And this is why I think you're disrespectful.
You have no problem referring to me as a woman, why should it suddenly be difficult when it comes to someone who was born with a penis but whose every fiber of their being tells them they are a woman?

If every fiber of my being tells me I am a vampire, should I be treated as a vampire? Just because every fiber of your being tells you something, doesn't make it true.

 

[Ken-1122]

I find this a bit amusing, given the complaints about posts confusing scientific fact with feelings earlier in the thread. In other words, it is great you feel this way, but there's no reason for anyone else to acknowledge those feelings here in public.

What I said about steroid use is not based on feelings, it has been proven steroid use does give athletes an advantage over athletes who don't use them.

 

[Belk]

Peer reviewed research? I doubt he has peer reviewed research on this issue, however if he does, please feel free to provide it and I would gladly look over it.

Feel free to contact him.

It doesn't support my argument to your satisfaction!

This is rich coming from someone who believes experts must explain things to his satisfaction prior to his accepting their opinion on their specialty.

(No amount of evidence could do that)

Feel free to speak for yourself. Do not presume to speak for me.

However it does support the argument to mine; which is what we are talking about.

No, it does not. Definitions are descriptive not prescriptive. I have already linked actual experts in the field who disagree with your assessment.

 

[Ken-1122]

Feel free to contact him.

You are the one claiming his work is peer reviewed; it is up to you to back up this claim of yours.

This is rich coming from someone who believes experts must explain things to his satisfaction prior to his accepting their opinion on their specialty.

As it should be; remember you are trying to change my mind on this issue; not the other way around, I couldn't care less how you feel on the issue.

Feel free to speak for yourself. Do not presume to speak for me.

Really? So what type of evidence would you find acceptable?

No, it does not. Definitions are descriptive not prescriptive. I have already linked actual experts in the field who disagree with your assessment.

Your expert did not refute my claim that gender is not based on biology, he only said there are Biological underpinnings to gender, and he didn’t explain what that means. He didn’t say gender is based in biology.

 

[Belk]

You are the one claiming his work is peer reviewed; it is up to you to back up this claim of yours.

You keep trying to shift this burden of proof to me. You are the one challenging the claims of the expert. Challenge away. You certainly have offered nothing remotely resembling evidence in this direct refutation of your claim.

As it should be; remember you are trying to change my mind on this issue; not the other way around, I couldn't care less how you feel on the issue.

I'm not trying to change your mind. I'm simply refuting your claims.

Really? So what type of evidence would you find acceptable?

Why? What type of evidence do you have and why has it been so long in coming?

Your expert did not refute my claim that gender is not based on biology, he only said there are Biological underpinnings to gender, and he didn’t explain what that means. He didn’t say gender is based in biology.

Are you seriously going to try to claim "Biological underpinnings" is somehow substantially different then "based in biology"?

un·der·pin·ning
/ˈəndərˌpiniNG/

Learn to pronounce

noun
plural noun: underpinnings
a solid foundation laid below ground level to support or strengthen a building.
a set of ideas, motives, or devices that justify or form the basis for something.

 

[stevevw]

A simple fact that gender has everything to do with biology is when we take biology out of the equation we end up with males with male genitals posing as women and sharing privacy spaces with females. If that is not an obvious sign then what is. It shows that allowing a feeling to dictate the meaning of gender does not account for what happens in real life situations.

 

[KCfromNC]

What I said about steroid use is not based on feelings, it has been proven steroid use does give athletes an advantage over athletes who don't use them.

I was talking about your feeling that this is in any way relevant to the discussion.

 

[Ken-1122]

You keep trying to shift this burden of proof to me. You are the one challenging the claims of the expert. Challenge away. You certainly have offered nothing remotely resembling evidence in this direct refutation of your claim.

Your expert just said gender has biological underpinnings, he didn't explain how, or what these underpinnings were or anything; he just said they have underpinnings. That's not good enough, your expert made the claim it is up to him to support his claim unless you are willing to do it for him. Thus far his claim is empty because it has not been backed up.

Why? What type of evidence do you have and why has it been so long in coming?

I provided several definitions of Gender (as currently defined) that says it is based on social roles, and what is believed to be appropriate for men and women; nothing about biology. Obviously this isn't good enough for you, so I ask for an example of what would be good enough for you?

Are you seriously going to try to claim "Biological underpinnings" is somehow substantially different then "based in biology"?

I don't know! That's why I'm asking you to define it.

un·der·pin·ning
/ˈəndərˌpiniNG/

Learn to pronounce

noun
plural noun: underpinnings
a solid foundation laid below ground level to support or strengthen a building.
a set of ideas, motives, or devices that justify or form the basis for something.

Great! Now going by that definition, what did your expert mean when he said "gender has biological underpinnings"?

 

[Ken-1122]

I was talking about your feeling that this is in any way relevant to the discussion.

This discussion is about issues concerning transgenderism.

*Someone mentioned transgender women competing in sports against biological women
*The response was a claim that when transgender women are given estrogen, and transgender men are given anabolic steroids, this makes everything equal.
*I responded giving a woman anabolic steroids though making her stronger it does not make her equal to strength of a man, and giving a man estrogen, though it does make him weaker, it does not make him equal to strength of a woman; otherwise we would see just as many transgender men dominating male sports as we see transgender women dominating female sports.

I find my responses totally revenant to the discussion; obviously you do not; please explain why.

 

[Speedwell]

Ken,

It occurs to me that part of what you may be concerned about is Trans Radicalism, an unsavory phenomenon of the fringe-Left which has been blown out of proportion by the fringe-Right and which has nothing to do with real gender dysphoria. The following article was just posted in the Decline of Morals thread.

The Fake Ideology That Could Do Real Harm

Take a look and tell us what you think.

 

[Ken-1122]

Ken,

It occurs to me that part of what you may be concerned about is Trans Radicalism, an unsavory phenomenon of the fringe-Left which has been blown out of proportion by the fringe-Right and which has nothing to do with real gender dysphoria.

What is "trans radicalism? And what issues are they promoting?

following article was just posted in the Decline of Morals thread.

The Fake Ideology That Could Do Real Harm

Take a look and tell us what you think.

It appears the article discusses issues that are going on in foreign countries that I do not see going on in the United States. I don't see a major attempt to dispel LGPQ rights because it conflicts with Christian values; sure there are people who feel this way in the US, but their influence is so small they might as well not even exist! So I don't see this as an issue in the United States. My concern is about what is going on in the United States, not the countries mentioned in the article.

 

[Speedwell]

What is "trans radicalism? And what issues are they promoting?

That gender dysphoria is a free-will choice and anyone who claims to be trans has to be acknowledged as such without question.

 

[Ken-1122]

That gender dysphoria is a free-will choice and anyone who claims to be trans has to be acknowledged as such without question.

Would you agree that "trans radicalism is the loudest voice coming from the Trans community?

 

[Speedwell]

Would you agree that "trans radicalism is the loudest voice coming from the Trans community?

No, I think it is a different community. Trans Radicals, as understand it, believe that gender identity is the result of oppressive social conditioning which one can choose to reject. For real gender dysphorics it is not a choice.

 

[Ken-1122]

No, I think it is a different community. Trans Radicals, as understand it, believe that gender identity is the result of oppressive social conditioning which one can choose to reject. For real gender dysphorics it is not a choice.

So it is your view the trans radicals do not claim to speak for those with gender dysphasia?

 

[Speedwell]

So it is your view the trans radicals do not claim to speak for those with gender dysphasia?

Dysphoria. They can claim whatever they want. They are IMO nothing but a bunch of hooligans looking for trouble and making life more difficult for those trying to come to terms with real gender dysphoria.

 

[Ken-1122]

Dysphoria. They can claim whatever they want. They are IMO nothing but a bunch of hooligans looking for trouble and making life more difficult for those trying to come to terms with real gender dysphoria.

Hooligan or not, as long as the silent majority remains silent, the vocal minority (hooligans) becomes the face and voice of the entire movement

 

[Belk]

Your expert just said gender has biological underpinnings, he didn't explain how, or what these underpinnings were or anything; he just said they have underpinnings.

Indeed. That is why people quote experts. So they don't have to explain all the details since most people recognize that experts likely have a better understanding of the subject then they do.

That's not good enough, your expert made the claim it is up to him to support his claim unless you are willing to do it for him. Thus far his claim is empty because it has not been backed up.

This is a new and interesting definition of "empty claim". Apparently experts are now required to explain their knowledge to laymen in order to be believed. This is going to play hell with quantum physics.

I provided several definitions of Gender (as currently defined) that says it is based on social roles, and what is believed to be appropriate for men and women; nothing about biology. Obviously this isn't good enough for you, so I ask for an example of what would be good enough for you?

How many times do I have to point out the definitions are descriptive, not prescriptive. The definition of red light is

red light
noun
a red lamp, used as a traffic signal to mean “stop.”
an order or directive to halt an action, project, etc.: There's a red light on all unnecessary expenses.
a children's running game in which players must stop when “Red light!” is called.
a signal of danger; warning.

They don't mention photons so obviously red light is not made up of photons.

Fallacies of definition - Wikipedia

I don't know! That's why I'm asking you to define it.

No you did not ask me to define it. You stated the biological underpinnings does not mean based on biology.

Great! Now going by that definition, what did your expert mean when he said "gender has biological underpinnings"?

I'm going to go out on a limb and, using the definition of "underpinnings" , say that he means gender is based on biology.

However you can feel free to ask him when you inform him that he is required to provide you peer reviewed studies and a full explanation of his understanding prior to your accepting that he might know what he is talking about.