A simple fix for the Transgender issue.

[Ken-1122]

Why not? It's not as if transgenders expected to be treated like royalty. No, I'm sorry, but you are giving the distinct impression of someone acting out.

If I insist I am a vampire, warewolf or some other fictional character and insist I be addressed as such, are you obligated to grant my request? No. The Golden rule says to do unto others as you would have them do unto you! Not do unto others according to their request.

 

[Speedwell]

If I insist I am a vampire, warewolf or some other fictional character and insist I be addressed as such, are you obligated to grant my request? No. The Golden rule says to do unto others as you would have them do unto you! Not do unto others according to their request.

Transgenders are not fictional characters. They are human beings.

 

[MehGuy]

How about if we just don’t address it? When referring to men vs women, when deciding which public restroom or shower facility to use, when unsure to call someone a ma'am or sir, instead of assuming gender, why not just assume sex? The difference? Sex refers to biology, (XX vs XY chromosomes, sex organs, etc) where as gender refers to perceived social roles based on sex.

When I speak to people, if I use the pronoun he or she, I’m referring to their sex not their gender. I’m making an assumption of their biology, not whatever confusion they might have going on inside of their heads. If a biological woman identifies as a man, she shouldn’t assume I am addressing her identification when I call her she, this woman should assume I am referring to her biology.

Does this make sense? Your thoughts?

Ken

Everyone will have different opinions. For me I prefer to call trans-women "she" and trans-men "he". Mainly because I believe in gender differences and that trans-women have brain hardwiring more akin to women and trans-men have brain hardwiring more akin to men.

Perhaps I'd shy away from calling them 100% women or 100% men. Still, I think our brains define much of our essence. When you're being romantic and interacting with men and women a big part is the psychological compared to physical.

Although I can understand and sympathize with people who do not feel comfortable calling trans people as the gender they identity. In the past I used to be this way. Mainly because I thought gender was just a social construct (ironically it was feminism that turned my mind around, lol).

Your freedom of speech. Call them whatever you like. Personally I will not view you as a bigot as long as you are being honest with your feelings. Still as long as there are differing opinions, this issue is not going away.

 

[Ken-1122]

Transgenders are not fictional characters. They are human beings.

People who believe they are werewolves and vampires are real human beings as well; they're just misguided human beings IMO

 

[Ken-1122]

Everyone will have different opinions. For me I prefer to call trans-women "she" and trans-men "he". Mainly because I believe in gender differences and that trans-women have brain hardwiring more akin to women and trans-men have brain hardwiring more akin to men.

Perhaps I'd shy away from calling them 100% women or 100% men. Still, I think our brains define much of our essence. When you're being romantic and interacting with men and women a big part is the psychological compared to physical.

Although I can understand and sympathize with people who do not feel comfortable calling trans people as the gender they identity. In the past I used to be this way. Mainly because I thought gender was just a social construct (ironically it was feminism that turned my mind around, lol).

Your freedom of speech. Call them whatever you like. Personally I will not view you as a bigot as long as you are being honest with your feelings. Still as long as there are differing opinions, this issue is not going away.

What about some of the other gender pronouns like "Thon, Zi, or Per"; do you recognize them as well? Do you understand them?

 

[MehGuy]

What about some of the other gender pronouns like "Thon, Zi, or Per"; do you recognize them as well? Do you understand them?

If its not a mesh between "masculine" or "feminine" or the absent of a gender (agender) I don't really recognize them.

If someone is using a weird pronoun I tend to think they're just a some stupid social justice warrior looking for attention or wanting to feel victimized and oppressed. Lol.

 

[Kylie]

By George I've think she's got it!!! If I insist I am a vampire, a ware wolf, or some other fictional character that does not exist, and I insist on being addressed as one, are you being disrespectful by refusing my request? Of course not. The Golden Rule says to treat people the way you would want to be treated; not treat them as they want to be treated. Looks like you're finally getting it! (a little encouraged I must admit)

And what does it harm me if I do refer to you as such?

Honestly, if you live your life 24/7 acting as a vampire, why shouldn't I refer to you as such? It's not gonna harm me in any way, and if it means I avoid disrespecting you, then what's the problem?

Oh, and you don't really believe that "treat people the way you would want to be treated" stuff, or you'd be trying to send me all your money, because frankly, I'd love to be able to give away money to people who need it, and money is often rather tight for me.

 

[stevevw]

The problem with saying that gender is in the brain/mind in identifying as male or female is that this is the same ideology that says that gender is fluid and that all the other gender identities in between that require gender pronouns like Ze and Zer should have the same recognition. So if someone acknowledges that a male can identify as a female because of their brain/mind then they can also identify as the many other gender identities such as neither male or female (gender-queer), as both male and female (bi-gender) and so on.

 

[Kylie]

The problem with saying that gender is in the brain/mind in identifying as male or female is that this is the same ideology that says that gender is fluid and that all the other gender identities in between that require gender pronouns like Ze and Zer should have the same recognition. So if someone acknowledges that a male can identify as a female because of their brain/mind then they can also identify as the many other gender identities such as neither male or female (gender-queer), as both male and female (bi-gender) and so on.

So? Why is this a problem? Because it will allow people to be something other than male or female? Why is that bad?

 

[stevevw]

So? Why is this a problem? Because it will allow people to be something other than male or female? Why is that bad?

I don't have problem with people identifying with other gender identities. It becomes a problem when people insist that the feelings that cause them to identify with the many different gender identities is scientific fact as to what makes a male and female and this is used to change laws. This is dangerous territory as no other laws are based on peoples feelings which are subjective and subject to arbitrary change. It also becomes a problem when people ignore the science about gender dysphoria and only allow certain solutions which have been shown to be harmful and unfounded.

 

[Kylie]

I don't have problem with people identifying with other gender identities. It becomes a problem when people insist that the feelings that cause them to identify with the many different gender identities is scientific fact as to what makes a male and female and this is used to change laws. This is dangerous territory as no other laws are based on peoples feelings which are subjective and subject to arbitrary change. It also becomes a problem when people ignore the science about gender dysphoria and only allow certain solutions which have been shown to be harmful and unfounded.

You seem to be saying that allowing people to identify as however they like will cause problems and is harmful. Am I correct?

 

[stevevw]

You seem to be saying that allowing people to identify as however they like will cause problems and is harmful. Am I correct?

No people are allowed to identify with however they like so long as they don't try to force this ideology into areas where it should not belong. For example if you are a male and self identify as a female and want to compete in a woman's sport I think this becomes a problem especially for cis women. This is then moving gender identity from feelings in the mind to the biological aspects of sex. Feelings and self gendered identity cannot account for biological sex as one is a feeling and the other is scientific fact.

The problem for gender ideology is that they want to substitute biological fact with a feeling which we do not do for any other area in life. For example it would be like saying that ethnicity is a feeling and in the mind. So if a person who is British self identifies as a Chinese person then they are declared a Chinese person by fact. But we do not use this logic with ethnicity, race or disability for example. A person who is able bodied cannot suddenly say they are disabled because they feel that way in their mind. We use scientific fact. Ethnicity is determined by DNA, we can measure disability through medical tests which show a disabled function from the norm and males and females are determined by biology.

If they choose to identify with being the opposite sex in their mind then this is only a subjective mental state and not actually becoming the opposite sex physically which is a major part of gender. You cannot separate gender from biology yet this is what gender ideology wants to do. Therefore a male wanting to enter women's spaces based on a feeling and mental state yet still physically being a male is going to cause big problems and is against scientific fact.

The harmful part is that if feelings and self identity for gender is used as the basic measure for gender then anyone with gender dysphoria are encouraged to change sex. Evidence shows that most children who experience gender dysphoria end up realigning with their original Nate sex. So those who have been pushed down the hormone therapy and surgical path have been harmed irreversibly. But if people want to identify with other genders then I cannot see a problem so long as it does not harm others.

 

[Ken-1122]

And what does it harm me if I do refer to you as such?

Honestly, if you live your life 24/7 acting as a vampire, why shouldn't I refer to you as such? It's not gonna harm me in any way,

The harm comes when I get laws passed that force you to do as such. People have a history of getting laws passed enforcing behavior that was previously only tolerated.

and if it means I avoid disrespecting you, then what's the problem?

It does not mean you are being disrespected when someone refuses to address you in a way you wish to be addressed, especially when your wishes are unreasonable.

 

[Kylie]

No people are allowed to identify with however they like so long as they don't try to force this ideology into areas where it should not belong.

And do you feel that address people by their preferred pronouns is one such area?

For example if you are a male and self identify as a female and want to compete in a woman's sport I think this becomes a problem especially for cis women. This is then moving gender identity from feelings in the mind to the biological aspects of sex. Feelings and self gendered identity cannot account for biological sex as one is a feeling and the other is scientific fact.

You do know that a trans woman isn't just a man in a dress, right? If they are taking hormones, then the effects of those hormones pretty much removes any physical advantage they would have had.

"As Joanna Harper explains, "Once a trans woman starts on antiandrogen drugs as part of HRT, then her testosterone levels quickly fall to female norms. This is followed by a rapid reduction in the percentage of red blood cells in the blood stream, again to female levels. The lower hematocrit levels have a dramatic effect on endurance sports such as running or cycling. The lower T levels also will cause muscle mass atrophy. The loss of strength is not as rapid, nor as complete, as the loss of endurance, but trans women will lose much of their strength advantage over cisgender women."" SOURCE

The problem for gender ideology is that they want to substitute biological fact with a feeling which we do not do for any other area in life. For example it would be like saying that ethnicity is a feeling and in the mind. So if a person who is British self identifies as a Chinese person then they are declared a Chinese person by fact. But we do not use this logic with ethnicity, race or disability for example. A person who is able bodied cannot suddenly say they are disabled because they feel that way in their mind. We use scientific fact. Ethnicity is determined by DNA, we can measure disability through medical tests which show a disabled function from the norm and males and females are determined by biology.

What about mental disabilities? A person with a mental disability literally feels that way in their mind, just the same way that a person who can't walk feels that way in their legs, for example.

And there are literally zero DNA markers for ethnicity.

"Genetic methods do not support the classification of humans into discrete races, [and] racial assumptions are not good biological guideposts. Races are not genetically homogenous and lack clear-cut genetic boundaries." SOURCE

If they choose to identify with being the opposite sex in their mind then this is only a subjective mental state and not actually becoming the opposite sex physically which is a major part of gender. You cannot separate gender from biology yet this is what gender ideology wants to do. Therefore a male wanting to enter women's spaces based on a feeling and mental state yet still physically being a male is going to cause big problems and is against scientific fact.

There is a huge amount of evidence that the physical construction of a person and their sense of gender are two very different things.

 

[Kylie]

The harm comes when I get laws passed that force you to do as such. People have a history of getting laws passed enforcing behavior that was previously only tolerated.

I honestly don't get your attitude here. It's like saying that you wouldn't kill anyone, but you don't think there should be laws against murder.

It does not mean you are being disrespected when someone refuses to address you in a way you wish to be addressed, especially when your wishes are unreasonable.

So you think a trans woman asking to be referred to as a trans woman is unreasonable?

 

[Ken-1122]

You do know that a trans woman isn't just a man in a dress, right? If they are taking hormones, then the effects of those hormones pretty much removes any physical advantage they would have had.

I disagree! This would be the same as an athlete using steroids, going off them for a few months before the event allowing his testosterone levels back to normal, then competing with athletes who has never used steroids. Though his strength will be reduced after going off steroids, it has been proven that he will not go back to the level of pre steroid use. This is why at some of the powerlifting events they have categories of “drug free for life” because too many guys would use drugs then go off them in time to pass the typical drug test.

A athlete spending his entire life as a man suddenly taking estrogen to get his level to that of a woman is still going to have advantages over athletes who have been women their entire lives; (not to mention the bone density issue) And we’ve seen this in the many examples of trans women dominating female sports, yet we never see trans men dominating male sports.

 

[Ken-1122]

I honestly don't get your attitude here. It's like saying that you wouldn't kill anyone, but you don't think there should be laws against murder.

Murder is something that should not be tolerated in a civilized society. I think it's more like saying it's okay if you want to read your bible and recite the Lords Prayer, but don't start asking me to do this at school because it makes you feel better.

So you think a trans woman asking to be referred to as a trans woman is unreasonable?

I don't think they are asking to be referred to as "trans" women, they are asking to be referred to as women. THAT I do find unreasonable.

 

[Kylie]

I disagree! This would be the same as an athlete using steroids, going off them for a few months before the event allowing his testosterone levels back to normal, then competing with athletes who has never used steroids. Though his strength will be reduced after going off steroids, it has been proven that he will not go back to the level of pre steroid use. This is why at some of the powerlifting events they have categories of “drug free for life” because too many guys would use drugs then go off them in time to pass the typical drug test.

A athlete spending his entire life as a man suddenly taking estrogen to get his level to that of a woman is still going to have advantages over athletes who have been women their entire lives; (not to mention the bone density issue) And we’ve seen this in the many examples of trans women dominating female sports, yet we never see trans men dominating male sports.

The scientists who study this disagree with you, and I'm inclined to believe them rather than you.

 

[Kylie]

Murder is something that should not be tolerated in a civilized society. I think it's more like saying it's okay if you want to read your bible and recite the Lords Prayer, but don't start asking me to do this at school because it makes you feel better.

I don't think they are asking to be referred to as "trans" women, they are asking to be referred to as women. THAT I do find unreasonable.

And this is why I think you're disrespectful.

You have no problem referring to me as a woman, why should it suddenly be difficult when it comes to someone who was born with a penis but whose every fiber of their being tells them they are a woman?

 

[KCfromNC]

I disagree! This would be the same as an athlete using steroids

I find this a bit amusing, given the complaints about posts confusing scientific fact with feelings earlier in the thread. In other words, it is great you feel this way, but there's no reason for anyone else to acknowledge those feelings here in public.