A simple fix for the Transgender issue.

[Belk]

The link you provided does not even address the point I made. Your link is about gender and anatomy; Not what I actually spoke of. Do you have something that supports your claim that science disagrees with me? Or is your word supposed to be good enough?

That Gender is make believe? Yes my link directly refutes your claims.

“We know that there is a significant, durable biological underpinning to gender identity,” Dr. Safer said.

 

[Ken-1122]

That Gender is make believe? Yes my link directly refutes your claims.

Because I am not a member, I am unable to read the entire article, just the first few lines. Can you read the article and tell me what are some of these biological underpinnings to Gender identity.

 

[Ken-1122]

Perhaps we should go all the way back to the OP and start over.

1. If you are addressing the person, then the question doesn't come up; just say "you."
2. If you are speaking of the person to someone else and neither of you know anything about his or her self-identification, then a choice of pronoun based on appearance is acceptable.
3. If you do know what that person's self-identification is, then the choice of pronoun should be determined by that identification.

Your opinion that a person's self-identification is a result of "confusion going on inside their heads" can be kept to yourself.

I never suggested we should tell them about their confusion.

 

[Speedwell]

I never suggested we should tell them about their confusion.

Then I don't see the difficulty.

 

[Ken-1122]

Then I don't see the difficulty.

There are those who take issue with me addressing biology instead of gender. IOW if someone is a biological he but identifies as She, Xi, or Zi, I would refer to them as a he when talking to other people.

 

[Belk]

Because I am not a member, I am unable to read the entire article, just the first few lines. Can you read the article and tell me what are some of these biological underpinnings to Gender identity.

From the article:

“We know that there is a significant, durable biological underpinning to gender identity,” Dr. Safer said. “What we don’t know are all of the biological factors at play that explain gender identity. As far as we in the mainstream biological-medical community understand it in 2018, it is hard-wired, it is biological, it is not entirely hormonal, and we do not have identified genes, so we cannot specifically say it is genetic.”

Are genes a factor?
Genetics does play a role, though. In studies of twins, if one is transgender, the other is far more likely to also be transgender if they are identical, rather than fraternal twins. Identical twins are near matches, genetically; fraternal ones are not. The findings are similar for twins who have Type 1 diabetes, which is known to have a strong genetic component.

 

[Speedwell]

There are those who take issue with me addressing biology instead of gender. IOW if someone is a biological he but identifies as She, Xi, or Zi, I would refer to them as a he when talking to other people.

If these other people don't know the self-identified gender of the person being spoken of then that makes sense. If they do know, then it is unnecessarily rude, and possibly confusing to them.

 

[Ken-1122]

From the article:

“We know that there is a significant, durable biological underpinning to gender identity,” Dr. Safer said. “What we don’t know are all of the biological factors at play that explain gender identity. As far as we in the mainstream biological-medical community understand it in 2018, it is hard-wired, it is biological, it is not entirely hormonal, and we do not have identified genes, so we cannot specifically say it is genetic.”

So according to Dr. Safer, there are biological underpinnings to gender identity, but we don't know the biological factors at play? What does that mean? And what does it mean to identify as a man or a woman? I've never been able to get a straight answer concerning this.

 

[Ken-1122]

If these other people don't know the self-identified gender of the person being spoken of then that makes sense. If they do know, then it is unnecessarily rude, and possibly confusing to them.

I just make it a point to address biology instead of Gender.

 

[Kylie]

Why is biology disrespectful?

It is disrespectful because you are not treating them how they are asking you to treat them. Instead, you are telling them that you know better than them and you ignore their wishes.

Seriously, this is not a difficult concept, yet you have gone out of your way to make excuses and justify your insistence to ignore them. You seem to have no interest in actually treating them with respect because you just want to treat them how you have decided that they should be treated.

Since you have no desire to learn and no desire to consider other points of view (such as the people you insist on misgendering), I'm done.

 

[Kalevalatar]

We resolved this linguistic technicality back in 1543. I'm hän, my husband is hän and our kids are hän. We are all human beings.

 

[Speedwell]

I just make it a point to address biology instead of Gender.

So let's consider an example: A post-op or post-hormonal transgender person who presents successfully as a woman is known by you to be a transgender person. When discussing this person with others who do not know the person's history as a man would you use "he" or "she?"

 

[Kalevalatar]

So let's consider an example: A post-op or post-hormonal transgender person who presents successfully as a woman is known by you to be a transgender person. When discussing this person with others who do not know the person's history as a man would you use "he" or "she?"

And that's the beauty of the inclusive gender-neutral personal pronoun "hän." Removes all the unnecessary hassle. She is hän and he is hän.

 

[Ken-1122]

It is disrespectful because you are not treating them how they are asking you to treat them. Instead, you are telling them that you know better than them and you ignore their wishes.

Seriously, this is not a difficult concept, yet you have gone out of your way to make excuses and justify your insistence to ignore them. You seem to have no interest in actually treating them with respect because you just want to treat them how you have decided that they should be treated.

My refusal to comply to their wishes is not based on disrespect, it’s based on disagreement. Believe it or not, it is possible to disagree without disrespecting.

Since you have no desire to learn and no desire to consider other points of view (such as the people you insist on misgendering), I'm done.

No desire to learn? No desire to consider other points of view? Believe it or not, it is possible to know just as much as you know about an issue, to consider all viewpoints, and still disagree with you. Something you might wanna consider in future debates.

 

[Ken-1122]

So let's consider an example: A post-op or post-hormonal transgender person who presents successfully as a woman is known by you to be a transgender person. When discussing this person with others who do not know the person's history as a man would you use "he" or "she?"

Just as if a brunette lady were wearing a blond wig, I would refer to her as blond because it is easier; if the person looks like a woman I would refer to him as a woman because it is easier.

 

[Speedwell]

Just as if a brunette lady were wearing a blond wig, I would refer to her as blond because it is easier; if the person looks like a woman I would refer to him as a woman because it is easier.

Wasn't your point was that you would insist in all cases on using the pronoun relating to the person's original biology?

 

[Belk]

So according to Dr. Safer, there are biological underpinnings to gender identity, but we don't know the biological factors at play? What does that mean? And what does it mean to identify as a man or a woman? I've never been able to get a straight answer concerning this.

Do you agree that this refutes your statement? Experts in the field say that there are biological underpinnings to gender.

 

[Ken-1122]

Do you agree that this refutes your statement? Experts in the field say that there are biological underpinnings to gender.

Okay; just because somebody has a PHD next to their name doesn’t mean everything they say should be taken as gospel; they are required to explain their views in a way that make sense just like everybody else. That’s why I asked; what does it mean to have biological underpinnings but not know which biological factors are at play.
And what are the biological details of some of the various genders? I know Male and Female

*Male- XY Chromosome, produces sperm cell, testosterone level of between 300-1,200 and estrogen levels between 25-50
*Female-XX Chromosome, produces egg, testosterone level between 25-75 estrogen levels between 25-200

What are some of the biological details of some of the various genders? Since I cannot read the article, perhaps you can read it and answer some of my questions.

 

[Ken-1122]

Wasn't your point was that you would insist in all cases on using the pronoun relating to the person's original biology?

No. As I said before, if I am told the person who looks like a guy is female, I will assume they are another of countless females I've encountered that look like guys and I will assume they are biological females. If I am told the person who looks like a guy is a they, a Zi or Xi, because those are gender pronouns, I will inform the person I am talking to that I don't address gender, I address biology.

 

[Belk]

Okay; just because somebody has a PHD next to their name doesn’t mean everything they say should be taken as gospel; they are required to explain their views in a way that make sense just like everybody else. That’s why I asked; what does it mean to have biological underpinnings but not know which biological factors are at play.
And what are the biological details of some of the various genders? I know Male and Female

*Male- XY Chromosome, produces sperm cell, testosterone level of between 300-1,200 and estrogen levels between 25-50
*Female-XX Chromosome, produces egg, testosterone level between 25-75 estrogen levels between 25-200

What are some of the biological details of some of the various genders? Since I cannot read the article, perhaps you can read it and answer some of my questions.

This appears to be a shifting of the burden of proof. This is someone speaking as an expert in their field. Do you have anything to support your claims that it is not biological other then your layman's opinion?