A Question to all the Non Protestant High Churches

[GreekOrthodox]

In fairness to both Orthodoxy and Catholicism, the "bound for Hell" stuff is passé. Contemporary Orthodoxy and Catholicism abound with high-profile universalists (or at least those open to the plausibility of universalism). I'm happy to supply names...

News to me! It would be a little hard to push for universalism considering it is condemned as heretical. There are some that do say, "I hope for universal reconciliation" like +Kallistos Ware. But that is as far as he goes.

 

[Magnanimity]

Where can I find this? Is it in the catechism?

There are lots of places that you can start this journey of exploration. For a glimpse at the breadth of recent scholarship on this issue from mostly Orthodox but some Catholic too, you can start here. Although the CCC still has a small section on Hell, there are other Catholic catechisms that assert things like, "Neither Holy Scripture nor the Church's Tradition of faith asserts with certainty of any man that he is actually in hell. Hell is always held before our eyes as a real possibility, one connected with the offer of conversion and life." The Church's Confession of Faith: A Catholic Catechism for Adults (San Francisco: Ignatius Press, 1987), p. 346.

For two preeminent Catholic theologians, you can check out Karl Rahner's Foundations of Christian Faith (New York: Crossroad, 1984), pp. 90ff and the entire book by Hans Urs Von Bathasar on the subject, Dare We Hope That All Men Be Saved? with a Short Discourse on Hell (San Francisco: Ignatius Press, 2014).

That's right. Sort of.

For one thing, I wasn't talking about Eastern Orthodoxy or Roman Catholicism, both of which still hold to that idea of there being only one true church--theirs. You quoted me making a reference to Anglicanism, but Anglicans don't do that. And Universalism has nothing to do with it in any case. Not with Catholics, Orthodox Christians, or Anglicans.

I thought your post was a bit ambiguous in its implication regarding Catholicism and Orthodoxy. And I should say, although it's a minor point of clarification, it's still substantive and important to note that "subsists in" is weaker than "is" within the following statement from Vatican II:

This Church constituted and organized in the world as a society, subsists in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him, although many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside of its visible structure. (Lumen Gentium, 8, emphasis mine)
​

I'm unclear as to how universalism wouldn't be "on point." If universalism were true, there would be no such thing as extra ecclesiam nulla salus. That would be a meaningless doctrine itself. The most that one could claim for her particular communion would be something like, "we have the fullness of the Christian faith over here," given universalism. But, I'm not trying to drag us into such a discussion...just another little point of clarification.

 

[zoidar]

This is an honest question to all of the non-Protestant high churches like the Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodox Church, and any other Church that says they are the One True Apostolic Catholic Church outside of which there is no salvation. So, if I were a Protestant who wanted to join one of your churches for the reason that I would want to join the one true church founded by Jesus Christ and his Apostles and not burn in Hell for not being a part of your organization which one of you is the true church? I've studied the history of the schisms and it's all very hazy. What is your argument for why your church is the true church and with the "one true church" split into four or more branches do you really have any more legitimacy to claim to be the one true church than any protestant church? I'm not trying to start an argument here I really am curious as to the arguments as I am open to joining one of your churches if you give a convincing answer and God tells me to but as a protestant, this seems to be the most screwy thing to me about your churches.

It's terrible to ascribe salvation only to the members of one's own church. Do any church actually do that today? Even if one church or another is the true church, people are born again within or without churches. If God accepted me, gave me the new birth before I was attending church, I'm sure God will accept me whatever church I choose.

 

[Magnanimity]

News to me! It would be a little hard to push for universalism considering it is condemned as heretical. There are some that do say, "I hope for universal reconciliation" like +Kallistos Ware. But that is as far as he goes.

As I can only guess that you are aware, there are varieties of universalisms. There are weak ones like Von Balthasar and K. Ware (where they hold it's plausible that all will be saved, not just possible). And there are strong ones like Rahner and DB Hart (where they're rather confident that all will be saved). I'm assuming you've seen this list. Who and what has condemned it as heretical? Are you referring to the emperor Justinian?

 

[BNR32FAN]

You're wrong, the entire Biblical text of the Ten Commandments is in the Catholic Catechism. Perhaps you would put down what you think are the Ten Commandments and I would be glad to take a look and see if you missed any text. Purgatory


I believe the Catechism also takes it right from Lumen Gentium:
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation. 337

Again I sincerely apologize, I don’t see any Catholic versions of the Bible that omit the second commandment. Please forgive me for my mistake. I don’t know why people are making this claim unless there’s a version that I’m not aware of.

 

[Albion]

I thought your post was a bit ambiguous in its implication regarding Catholicism and Orthodoxy. And I should say, although it's a minor point of clarification, it's still substantive and important to note that "subsists in" is weaker than "is" within the following statement from Vatican II:

This Church constituted and organized in the world as a society, subsists in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him, although many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside of its visible structure. (Lumen Gentium, 8, emphasis mine)​

If we read the whole statement, however, it remains the same as always.
​

I'm unclear as to how universalism wouldn't be "on point."

None of the churches named actually does believe in Universalism. There are, certainly, ideas that are in the same general area as Universalism--the possibility of people who never have heard of the Gospel or of Christ finding salvation under certain conditions, for example. But Universalism? No.

 

[Albion]

It's terrible to ascribe salvation only to the members of one's own church. Do any church actually do that today?

None that have been mentioned so far.

Even if one church or another is the true church, people are born again within or without churches. If God accepted me, gave me the new birth before I was attending church, I'm sure God will accept me whatever church I choose.

That might be going a bit too far.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I think someone in this post said they pray to Mary. I heard they pray to saints and angels too. I don't see anywhere in the bible that we are to pray to anyone other than God or Jesus. I might have worded it wrong above about worship. My wife was catholic before I met her and maybe I heard her say that.



Yeah you are right! I forgot about that one. Thanks for reminding me. I'm sure there is more.

It is true that they pray to Mary and the saints but they are prayers for supplication not prayers of adoration. Prayers for supplication are prayer requests and not considered worship. The reason for this is because they fully believe that both Mary and the saints are very much alive and well in heaven so they pray to them asking them to intercede to God on their behalf. Pretty much like asking a pastor to pray for you but doing in long distance.

 

[Albion]

It is true that they pray to Mary and the saints but they are prayers for supplication not prayers of adoration.

Not necessarily. Some of the prayers that are prayed, including ones recommended by the Church itself, are prayers of adoration. No two ways about it.

Prayers for supplication are prayer requests and not considered worship.

Some are. As I wrote before, the Church itself defines different levels of worship--one is about God and the other is about saints. Both are considered to be "worship."

The reason for this is because they fully believe that both Mary and the saints are very much alive and well in heaven so they pray to them asking them to intercede to God on their behalf. Pretty much like asking a pastor to pray for you but doing in long distance.

That's just a rationalization. There isn't any Scriptural backing for praying TO a saint, although we know that the saints pray for US and that we are advised that it's right to ask a friend or neighbor to pray for us. But they are not spirits in the spirit world.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Not necessarily. Some of the prayers that are prayed, including ones recommended by the Church itself, are prayers of adoration. No two ways about it.

Can you give some examples?

 

[Albion]

Can you give some examples?

I'd have to do some searching around for some examples, but they definitely are there.

There are innumerable prayers approved and suggested for the various saints, so it's not like talking about the Hail Mary or the Lord's Prayer.

 

[Magnanimity]

If we read the whole statement, however, it remains the same as always.

I couldn't quite decide whether to put the laughing emoji or the crying one, but I opted to keep it positive. I'll only say this in reply--ecumenical (and inter-religious) dialogue has been sought-out by the Catholic church in earnest in the ensuing decades since the Council. The Catholic church has taken it seriously. So, she's acting like God's church subsists in her and subsists elsewhere too.

None of the churches named actually does believe in Universalism. There are, certainly, ideas that are in the same general area as Universalism--the possibility of people who never have heard of the Gospel or of Christ finding salvation under certain conditions, for example. But Universalism? No.

To be precise, churches don't hold beliefs at all. People do--rational agents are the believers of propositions. The history of openness to universalism is as old as the church. Anyone wanting to investigate the matter can do so at their own leisure. There have been not a few very high profile proponents of weaker or stronger universalisms over time. However, Augustinian doctrine more or less ruled the day in the West, so the presence of universalist inclinations in the Catholic West of the middle ages seems scant, to be sure.

 

[Valletta]

Again I sincerely apologize, I don’t see any Catholic versions of the Bible that omit the second commandment. Please forgive me for my mistake. I don’t know why people are making this claim unless there’s a version that I’m not aware of.

No problem. There are differences with others although I don't know what those are offhand.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Not necessarily. Some of the prayers that are prayed, including ones recommended by the Church itself, are prayers of adoration. No two ways about it.


Some are. As I wrote before, the Church itself defines different levels of worship--one is about God and the other is about saints. Both are considered to be "worship."



That's just a rationalization. There isn't any Scriptural backing for praying TO a saint, although we know that the saints pray for US and that we are advised that it's right to ask a friend or neighbor to pray for us. But they are not spirits in the spirit world.

Well I can see the logic behind the teaching and while I do not engage in it myself I see no harm in others doing it as long as they are prayers for supplication and not prayers of worship.

 

[Albion]

I couldn't quite decide whether to put the laughing emoji or the crying one, but I opted to keep it positive.

Kind of a strange start to the post if that was the decision, wouldn't you agree?

I'll only say this in reply--ecumenical (and inter-religious) dialogue has been sought-out by the Catholic church in earnest in the ensuing decades since the Council. The Catholic church has taken it seriously. So, she's acting like God's church subsists in her and subsists elsewhere too.

Sure, but that doesn't prove a thing that relates to the discussion we were having.

To be precise, churches don't hold beliefs at all. People do--rational agents are the believers of propositions.

Would you not agree that church bodies have published creeds and/or official statements of belief or doctrine? Well, what do you think that those (which just about every church a person could possibly name, all the way from Orthodox Eastern Christianity down to the Unitarian Universalist Association) amount to?

The history of openness to universalism is as old as the church.

Sorry, but no. Universalism is very old, that's true, but it is definitely not true that the mainline churches are "open" to the idea.

 

[Magnanimity]

Sure, but that doesn't prove a thing that relates to the discussion we were having.

The Catholic church has pronounced in a conciliar document that the church subsists in her. She has not self-identified God's church as exclusively within her confines. In fact, Lumen Gentium explicitly admits that "many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside of its visible structure" (LG, 8). She openly admits that the Orthodox church has a valid priesthood and therefore valid sacraments. She's in dialogue with Anglican communions. She openly admits that people can be saved outside of herself (to include Jews, Muslims and even people following their consciences - LG 16). Sounds all rather expansive and inclusive to me! Not so to you?

Would you not agree that church bodies have published creeds and/or official statements of belief or doctrine? Well, what do you think that those (which just about every church a person could possibly name, all the way from Orthodox Eastern Christianity down to the Unitarian Universalist Association) amount to?

Sure, but which creed did you have in mind that affirms that some folks are definitely bound for Hell? Or which one explicitly rejects universalism? I don't recall such a creed. In fact, all I recall from the first millennium are the emperor Justinian's variety of anathemas against certain aspects of the theology of Origen, which he petitioned the Council Fathers to include at Constantinople II (unsuccessfully, according to some contemporary scholars). I know of nothing besides this. I've been reading in this issue for a while now, but maybe I've missed something. That's certainly possible. It's a huge chunk of history to account for.

 

[GreekOrthodox]

As I can only guess that you are aware, there are varieties of universalisms. There are weak ones like Von Balthasar and K. Ware (where they hold it's plausible that all will be saved, not just possible). And there are strong ones like Rahner and DB Hart (where they're rather confident that all will be saved). I'm assuming you've seen this list. Who and what has condemned it as heretical? Are you referring to the emperor Justinian?

From the Sunday of Orthodoxy

To them who accept .... that there is an end to the torment or a restoration again of creation and of human affairs ... Anathema, Anathema, Anathema

 

[parousia70]

However, when the prayers extoll the spiritual powers of the saint in terms that are rightfully reserved for God alone...we have something that any reasonable person can understand to be a form of worship.

Got any examples of this we can examine?

 

[parousia70]

1. There is no salvation apart from Christ and his One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. Again, this is an infallible teaching and not up for debate among Catholics.

Interesting how Christian Forums requires adherence to that very same statement of faith in order to post in the Christian only sections.
CF Statement of Faith | Christian Forums

 

[Dave L]

Interesting how Christian Forums requires adherence to this very same statement of faith in order to post in the Christian only sections.
CF Statement of Faith | Christian Forums

Catholic = universal long before Catholicism crept in.