A Question to all the Non Protestant High Churches

[prodromos]

We call "Saints", those who God has revealed to be His close friends.

 

[concretecamper]

I guess I understand that, kind of. But I don't know where the Bible verses come from to support the idea, and if the saints are "asleep", as the Bible describes, then how can they ask God for anything, or hear any requests?

Luke 15
I say to you that even so there shall be joy in heaven upon one sinner that doth penance, more than upon ninety-nine just who need not penance.

Through the grace of God, the souls in Heaven are keenly aware of what goes on here on earth.

 

[The Liturgist]

All Christians are saints. In the Bible, there is not a special class of believers called "saints".

Ephesians 4:11-13, "And he himself gave some as apostles, some as prophets, some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, that is, to build up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God—a mature person, attaining to the measure of Christ’s full stature.

Acts 9:32, "Now as Peter was traveling around from place to place, he also came down to the saints who lived in Lydda.

Acts 9:41, "He gave her his hand and helped her get up. Then he called the saints and widows and presented her alive.

Acts 26:10, "And that is what I did in Jerusalem: Not only did I lock up many of the saints in prisons by the authority I received from the chief priests, but I also cast my vote against them when they were sentenced to death."

Romans 8:27, "And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes on behalf of the saints according to God’s will.

Romans 12:13, "Contribute to the needs of the saints, pursue hospitality.

Romans 15:26, "For Macedonia and Achaia are pleased to make some contribution for the poor among the saints in Jerusalem.

Ephesians 1:1, "From Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, to the saints, the faithful in Christ Jesus.

Phillipians 1:1, "From Paul and Timothy, slaves of Christ Jesus, to all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi, with the overseers and deacons.

Phillipians 4:22, "All the saints greet you, especially those who belong to Caesar’s household.





There are many more references but if you believe God's Word, then "saints" are not a special class of people venerated by their deeds, but all people who have been born into the kingdom of God.

I agree that everyone born into the Kingdom of God who perseveres is a saint. Your post however seems to propose a false dichotomy between the Church Militant and the Church Triumphant, when in fact the members of both comprise one Communion of the Saints. Allow me to explain in further detail:

Firstly, if I say I believe God’s Word, I am saying I believe in Jesus Christ, who is the Word of God, uncreated, begotten of the Father before all worlds, very God of very God, who for us men and our salvation was born as a human, in the womb of the Virgin Mary, and he was crucified, died, descended into Hell, and rose from the dead on the third day, and on the 40th day ascended into everlasting glory, just as the faithful shall rise from the dead into the life of the world to come. See: the Nicene Creed.

I also believe in what the Apostle’s Creed calls the Communion of the Saints. This consists of the Church Militant on Earth, and the Church Triumphant in Heaven. Those persons described as Saints in the Bible who persevered in the faith are still Saints today; they are still alive, and in heaven. For as Christ our God, who together with His Father and the Holy Spirit is alone deserving of worship and adoration, taught us, our God is not a god of the dead but The God of the Living (Mark 12:26-27). And just as Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are still alive, so too are the Christians of the Church Militant, for in the sight of God, all are alive (Luke 20:38).

Consequently, over the ages, the identities of some of those present in Heaven awaiting the Resurrection have become obvious to the Christian Church. Most obvious are the martyrs, whose salvation is guaranteed by the promise of our Lord, but the salvation of many others is clearly evident. And just as it is meet and right to venerate those Saints alive in the Church Militant with the liturgical Kiss of Peace (“Salute ye one another with a holy kiss”), it is also meet and right to venerate those saints alive in the Church Triumphant (I particularly like the way Eastern Orthodox Christians do this, by kissing the icons and relics of those known to be in Heaven. For when we participate in the Divine Liturgy of the Church, we are among those in Heaven, and they are among us.

In this respect I have always shared the faith of the Eastern Orthodox, and the Oriental Orthodox, as have a great many high church Anglicans.

 

[The Liturgist]

We call "Saints", those who God has revealed to be His close friends.

Indeed, and in many cases, this revelation is strikingly obvious, such as in the case of myrhh-streaming relics such as those of St. Nicholas.

In the Romanian Orthodox Church there was an even more spectacular incident recently involving St. Nectarios attending to a rural parish which had been without a priest for some years in the upheaval surrounding the collapse of communism. Are you familiar with that story?

 

[prodromos]

In the Romanian Orthodox Church there was an even more spectacular incident recently involving St. Nectarios attending to a rural parish which had been without a priest for some years in the upheaval surrounding the collapse of communism. Are you familiar with that story?

Very much so. There has been a constant stream of Romanians visiting the monastery on the Greek island of Aegina to venerate his relics.

 

[The Liturgist]

Very much so. There has been a constant stream of Romanians visiting the monastery on the Greek island of Aegina to venerate his relics.

Indeed, it was pretty spectacular what happened, and to me serves as proof that our God is a god of the living, and that the saints who have reposed are as much alive as those saints who still persevere in their toil in this world, and it points to our reunion in the presence of God in the world to come, a reunion enabled by our salvation through Theosis, brought about by the action of the Holy Spirit within us as we are nurtured through the sacramental grace of the Eucharist and the other sacred mysteries of the Church.

 

[BNR32FAN]

It likely depends on how one interprets St. Cyprian's statement, "Salus extra ecclesiam non est", "There is no salvation outside of the Church".

-CryptoLutheran

not really because the official position of the church is that there are some outside the church who are saved. Writings of individuals within the church do not always reflect the official teachings of the church. Augustine is a prime example of this.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I doubt you got this information from a Catholic.

I don’t know why your assuming that what I said is a lie. It’s no secret that a very large number of Catholics hold this position that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church due to statements in the catechism.

 

[Valletta]

Maybe so, maybe not. However, when the prayers extoll the spiritual powers of the saint in terms that are rightfully reserved for God alone...we have something that any reasonable person can understand to be a form of worship.

Even the church which is best known for devotions to spirits, the RCC, says that there are different kinds of "worship" and attempts to defend the practice of praying to the saints by labelling it as one of those kinds.

The worship given to God is for God alone, that is Catholic teaching. It's that simple. It seems to me that time spent as to how others pray could be better used by praying to God.

 

[Albion]

The worship given to God is for God alone, that is Catholic teaching. It's that simple.

Well, actually not, since the Roman Catholic Church itself describes two different kinds of "worship," that which is given to God and that which is given to the saints.

 

[Valletta]

Well, actually not, since the Roman Catholic Church itself describes two different kinds of "worship," that which is given to God and that which is given to the saints.

That the worship given to God is unique was my point. How you define "worship" and "venerate" makes all of the difference. And of course we know that language changes over time. If a judge is called "your Worship" that does not mean we are sinning by pretending the judge is God. The fact is a number of Catholics often pray at the drop of a hat, you'll see kneelers in many Catholic places, so I guess it's no surprise some Protestants try and find fault. Whether directly to God or asking an angel in Heaven to offer prayers as we do in one of our older prayers called Psalm 103, or asking saints, or asking friends and fellow parishoners to pray for us, we know the difference.

 

[Albion]

That the worship given to God is unique was my point.

OK. I think we all can agree to that. However, it doesn't mean that the saints are not being worshipped in the prayers of mortals and that this might be a wrongful practice...which was, I think, the point.

How you define "worship" and "venerate" makes all of the difference.

I'm sure there's a better reply available, but I'd say that honoring a saint with a day on the church calendar, naming parish churches after the saint, etc. would be venerating that saint's memory. In my personal view, that's fine. Other people no doubt don't like it. But then when it comes to worshipping a saint by one's petitions, affirmations, or practices--which is indeed done--that would be going too far. Certain acts do seem to amount to worship, if not the same kind as is reserved for God.

 

[Valletta]

So instead of one patriarchate falling away your suggesting that all but one fell away? In Matthew 7 Jesus said you can identify a false prophet by his actions. So let’s compare the actions of the EOC to the actions of the RCC. Shortly after the schism the RCC pope sanctioned the inquisitions in 1184AD which gave the church the authority to arrest, imprison, torture, and in some cases even execute nonbelievers who refuse to convert. This went on for 686 years. The EOC never engaged in activities like this. In fact I can’t seem to find any skeletons in the EOC closet unlike the RCC who then went on to begin soliciting indulgences in return for money which then led to the formulation of the doctrine of purgatory which allowed them to even solicit indulgences for the dead which still takes place to this day.

Hatred and bigotry are not the way my brother. Study history, not propaganda.

 

[Valletta]

not really because the official position of the church is that there are some outside the church who are saved. Writings of individuals within the church do not always reflect the official teachings of the church. Augustine is a prime example of this.

OK. I think we all can agree to that. However, it doesn't mean that the saints are not being worshipped in the prayers of mortals and that this might be a wrongful practice...which was, I think, the point.


I'm sure there's a better reply available, but I'd say that honoring a saint with a day on the church calendar, naming parish churches after the saint, etc. would be venerating that saint's memory. In my personal view, that's fine. Other people no doubt don't like it. But then when it comes to worshipping a saint by one's petitions, affirmations, or practices--which is indeed done--that would be going too far. Certain acts do seem to amount to worship, if not the same kind as is reserved for God.

There's all kinds of "worship" as translated from the original Hebrew OT text that is not for God, and so says the Word of God. This is the folly of translation. The Catholic Church is very strict about teaching that the worship given to God is for God alone.

 

[Valletta]

Well, actually not, since the Roman Catholic Church itself describes two different kinds of "worship," that which is given to God and that which is given to the saints.

We honor the saints.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Hatred and bigotry are not the way my brother. Study history, not propaganda.

I have, my source is Britanica.com not some random anti-Catholic website. And I take no pleasure in pointing out these events but unfortunately I believe they are very relevant when contemplating which church actually left the apostolic ways in the schism of 1054. I have no hatred for the RCC at all and have defended her many times here on CF on other matters.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

This is an honest question to all of the non-Protestant high churches like the Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodox Church, and any other Church that says they are the One True Apostolic Catholic Church outside of which there is no salvation. So, if I were a Protestant who wanted to join one of your churches for the reason that I would want to join the one true church founded by Jesus Christ and his Apostles and not burn in Hell for not being a part of your organization which one of you is the true church? I've studied the history of the schisms and it's all very hazy. What is your argument for why your church is the true church and with the "one true church" split into four or more branches do you really have any more legitimacy to claim to be the one true church than any protestant church? I'm not trying to start an argument here I really am curious as to the arguments as I am open to joining one of your churches if you give a convincing answer and God tells me to but as a protestant, this seems to be the most screwy thing to me about your churches.

I would look at each church you are interested in and look at their statement of belief. Than I would see which one of those matches with what the Bible teaches, if you want the true church.

 

[Albion]

The Catholic Church is very strict about teaching that the worship given to God is for God alone.

If you think that this is so, you need to check with your own church and verify what I explained. But it doesn't hand just on the church saying that there are two kinds of worship. It's also true that practices and prayers which can reasonably be identified as worship rather than mere veneration are commonly used by Catholic churches.

Here is one example of such a prayer.
Consecration to Mother Mary (printfriendly.com)

 

[Valletta]

If you think that this is so, you need to check with your own church and verify what I explained. But it doesn't hand just on the church saying that there are two kinds of worship. It's also true that practices and prayers which can reasonably be identified as worship rather than mere veneration are commonly used by Catholic churches.

Here is one example of such a prayer.
Consecration to Mother Mary (printfriendly.com)

They are a number of kinds of "worship" as per the original Hebrew OT in the Bible. There often is not a word for word translation in languages, and the original texts of the Bible were not written in English.
If a young boy worships a girl from afar that does not mean he thinks the girl is God. I am unaware that the Catholic Church pronounces that there are "two kinds of worship." Would you provide a citation? Catholics believe Our Lord should do the judging.

 

[Albion]

They are a number of kinds of "worship" as per the original Hebrew OT in the Bible. There often is not a word for word translation in languages, and the original texts of the Bible were not written in English.
If a young boy worships a girl from afar that does not mean he thinks the girl is God.

That's ridiculous. No one is talking--and certainly not yours truly--about Hebrew usage or some slang use of the word.

The points you are avoiding are these:

You own church, which encourages the veneration of the saints, says that there are different levels of worship, one for God, and another (still a form of "worship") in the case of the saints.

It is reasonable to consider certain acts of devotion to amount to worship if they treat spirits as if they were God or had the properties and powers that only God has. These are approved of by your church.