A Question to all the Non Protestant High Churches

[BNR32FAN]

Haha, you cant make this stuff up. This has nothing to do with the OP or my repsonse. So transparent.

Do you not think that the actions of the pope reflect his authenticity as being a child of God? Do you not think that the actions of a church are evidence of its faithfulness to God? You accused me of making errors about the church’s history but still refuse to point out exactly what errors you feel that I have made. I mean it appears that you are simply not willing to present any sort of argument to support your perspective. Perhaps because you can’t because you know that I can and will if I must and you’ll be proven wrong? Or maybe you did some searching and just don’t want to admit that everything I’ve said is true.

 

[concretecamper]

Do you not think that the actions of the pope reflect his authenticity as being a child of God?

I think it reflects that the Pope is human

Do you not think that the actions of a church are evidence of its faithfulness to God?

It means the Church is made up of sinners.

ou accused me of making errors about the church’s history but still refuse to point out exactly what errors you feel that I have made.

irrelevant to this thread.

I mean it appears that you are simply not willing to present any sort of argument to support your perspective. Perhaps because you can’t because you know that I can and will if I must and you’ll be proven wrong? Or maybe you did some searching and just don’t want to admit that everything I’ve said is true.

it seems you just learned some anti-Catholic information and are using this thread to spread the anti-Catholic gossip.

 

[Dave L]

Well, for one thing we predate the Protestant churches by about 1500 years. The Protestant Churches didn't even begin to exist for one and a half millennia after Christ.

Secondly every single doctrine you've inherited from us - Baptism, marriage, the idea of a church in the first place, the tradition of the Bible, the concept of Christian doctrine, church organisation, the writings of Church fathers, the concept of the Trinity worked out in the first centuries after Christ, and all the rest.

Thirdly if you Protestants have the truth, why are you so divided? Why should we believe you've got something to teach us?

The church protested Catholicism. But the protestant church still believed what the first-century church taught and believed except for the Pentecostal additions of the 20th century. And infant baptism. The Monarchial Bishops were a man-made addition to scripture that resulted in the Institutional Churches.

 

[Albion]

Well, for one thing we predate the Protestant churches by about 1500 years. The Protestant Churches didn't even begin to exist for one and a half millennia after Christ.

.Well, to be completely accurate, the Roman Church didn't exist for centuries after Christ and then went through a number of changes, not much different from the reforms instituted as part of the Protestant Reformation. And it went on changing itself by adopting many of the reforms of the Protestants that the Roman Catholic Church at first denounced.

Thirdly if you Protestants have the truth, why are you so divided?

There are many Protestant churches which are less divided than the Roman Catholic Church is.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I think it reflects that the Pope is human
It means the Church is made up of sinners.
irrelevant to this thread.
it seems you just learned some anti-Catholic information and are using this thread to spread the anti-Catholic gossip.

No my sources are secular like Britanica.com who are not biased against the RCC. Apparently you don’t know much about church history or you would’ve corrected me by now or at least pointed out at least one error that you think I’ve made but four posts later and you still haven’t. I take no pleasure in bringing up these matters but they are relevant to the discussion. I’ve defended the RCC many times here in CF on many discussions. Your saying that all the other church leaders fell from the church and only the bishop of Rome remained true. Your also saying that the actions of the church are irrelevant to its source of guidance. So all your really doing is dismissing any evidence presented against your church instead of evaluating the evidence that is presented.

https://www.britannica.com/eventSchism-of-1054

[URL="https://www.britannica.com/topic/inquisition"]inquisition | Definition, History, & Facts[/URL]

 

[concretecamper]

No my sources are secular like Britanica.com who are not biased against the RCC.

all I said was that new found information was found and you couldn't wait to gossip about it. I can care less where it is from.

you would’ve corrected me by now or at least pointed out at least one error that you think I’ve made but four posts later and you still haven’t.

off topic of the post. it really isn't that hard to understand.

I’ve defended the RCC many times here in CF on many discussions.

irrelevant to the gossip.

Your saying that all the other church leaders fell from the church and only the bishop of Rome remained true

that is what I believe.

Your also saying that the actions of the church are irrelevant to its source of guidance

I said the Pope is a sinner and the Church is made up of sinners.

So all your really doing is dismissing any evidence presented against your church instead of evaluating the evidence that is presented.

I can care less about any evidence that is not the topic of the OP no matter how many times you complain about it.

 

[BNR32FAN]

all I said was that new found information was found and you couldn't wait to gossip about it. I can care less where it is from.

Well you never actually said that in any of your posts directed to me. Perhaps you said it in a post directed to someone else.

 

[parousia70]

The church protested Catholicism. But the protestant church still believed what the first-century church taught and believed

Did they?

The Church of scripture is one united ecclesial body (Eph 4:3-4; Eph 4:13-16; Jn 17:21; Mt 16:18) without schismatic divisions (1 Cor 12:25; Rom 16:17; 1 Cor 1:10; Jude 1:19; Gal 5:20; 3 John 1:9-10), with one teaching for all the churches (Acts 15:22-23,25,28/Acts 16:4-5; 1 Tim 1:3; 1 Cor 1:10; Eph 4:5; Jude 1:3), and one bishopric authorized of and by the apostles (Titus 1:5) by the laying on of hands in ordination (Heb 6:2; 2 Tim 1:6; 1 Tim 4:14; Titus 1:5), sharing ministers back and forth among all churches (1 Cor 16:3; Rom 16:1,3,9,21,23; Phil 2:19,25; Titus 3:12), receiving one another in fellowship and in greeting (Rom 15:5-7; Rom 16:16; Col 4:10,12,14; 3 John 1:9-10), where excommunication removes individuals from this one body (Matt 18:17; 1 Corinthians 5:1-2,4-5), and which existed from St. Peter and the apostles unto today (Matt 16:18-19; Eph 3:21).

Protestantism, in Contrast, is an endless schism of divisions with multiple different teachings and authority structures, with no effective means of excommunication and no traceable Apostolic Lineage.

Pope Clement of Rome (late 80s AD) wrote a letter to the Corinthians, and the letter was in response to THEIR appeal to him to solve a serious doctrinal division they were having. So, even in the late first century there were apostolic Churches that were making appeals to the Bishop of Rome to settle grave disputes.

Only one group of Christians can trace its existence from the first century down to today: the Catholics. No protestant denomination traces its history back to before about AD 1500. So, we know for a fact that no modern protestant sect has apostolic origins. Yet the catholic sect does, for it originated in the first century and continued in unbroken existence down to our times.

It has continued for 20 centuries now, and its doctrines have never changed. No other organization or government has lasted even beyond a few centuries.

Francis is, also without question, the 266th successor of the Prime Minister of the King, Bishop of the Church of Rome, an apostolic Church which appears in our bibles.

 

[GreekOrthodox]

Did they?

Only one group of Christians can trace its existence from the first century down to today: the Catholics.

Hrmmmm....

"And the Lord said unto him (i.e. Ananias), Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and inquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth".

The Mariamite Cathedral of Damascus was built on Straight Street in the 2nd century, and has been rebuilt multiple times since then. It currently serves as the seat of the Antiochian Orthodox Church.

Of course the Copts would like to have a few words with that statement as well. Oh and the Armenians... But that's neither here nor there.

 

[Albion]

It's true. There are at least a half-dozen separate denominations/communions that can point to a first century origin.

 

[Dave L]

Did they?

The Church of scripture is one united ecclesial body (Eph 4:3-4; Eph 4:13-16; Jn 17:21; Mt 16:18) without schismatic divisions (1 Cor 12:25; Rom 16:17; 1 Cor 1:10; Jude 1:19; Gal 5:20; 3 John 1:9-10), with one teaching for all the churches (Acts 15:22-23,25,28/Acts 16:4-5; 1 Tim 1:3; 1 Cor 1:10; Eph 4:5; Jude 1:3), and one bishopric authorized of and by the apostles (Titus 1:5) by the laying on of hands in ordination (Heb 6:2; 2 Tim 1:6; 1 Tim 4:14; Titus 1:5), sharing ministers back and forth among all churches (1 Cor 16:3; Rom 16:1,3,9,21,23; Phil 2:19,25; Titus 3:12), receiving one another in fellowship and in greeting (Rom 15:5-7; Rom 16:16; Col 4:10,12,14; 3 John 1:9-10), where excommunication removes individuals from this one body (Matt 18:17; 1 Corinthians 5:1-2,4-5), and which existed from St. Peter and the apostles unto today (Matt 16:18-19; Eph 3:21).

Protestantism, in Contrast, is an endless schism of divisions with multiple different teachings and authority structures, with no effective means of excommunication and no traceable Apostolic Lineage.

Pope Clement of Rome (late 80s AD) wrote a letter to the Corinthians, and the letter was in response to THEIR appeal to him to solve a serious doctrinal division they were having. So, even in the late first century there were apostolic Churches that were making appeals to the Bishop of Rome to settle grave disputes.

Only one group of Christians can trace its existence from the first century down to today: the Catholics. No protestant denomination traces its history back to before about AD 1500. So, we know for a fact that no modern protestant sect has apostolic origins. Yet the catholic sect does, for it originated in the first century and continued in unbroken existence down to our times.

It has continued for 20 centuries now, and its doctrines have never changed. No other organization or government has lasted even beyond a few centuries.

Francis is, also without question, the 266th successor of the Prime Minister of the King, Bishop of the Church of Rome, an apostolic Church which appears in our bibles.

The NT church is an invisible spiritual body. It becomes visible when two or more meet in Jesus' name. And then returns to invisibility. Churches today don't even remotely approach the NT model. Especially the Catholic model and similar today. These are nothing more than religious business franchises that sell goods to believers who would do better without them.

 

[Valletta]

Well I think that would depend on what doctrinal errors the person is experiencing. Perhaps they decide to take a neutral stance on Mary’s perpetual virginity, the stance that I myself have taken, I don’t think this would constitute a loss of salvation simply for being indecisive on the matter.

The Catholic Church considered all baptized Christians to be part of the universal (Catholic) Church founded by Christ. The teaching is that there is no salvation without coming to Jesus, Protestants are part of the Church but simply lack the "fullness of the faith."

 

[Roy Taylor]

From what I understand about Catholics is that they don't read their bibles. They spend more time reading books written by a man's opinion rather than the book written by men inspired by God. Not sure about the Orthodox type of religion but I know Catholics worship and do things that are not in the bible. Let me try to think of some examples. All, here we go. Asking a man for forgiveness, worshiping angels and saints, worshiping and praying to Mary, rosary beads, not eating meat on Friday, and how about removing one of the ten commandments (3.Though shall not make any graven images) and splitting the 10th commandment in two. Then I notice most Catholics (not all) and Lutherans vote democrat which supports the murder of babies and sodomy. (remember Sodom and Gomorrah?)

Now on the other hand, Protestants may read their bible. But they pick and choose what to read! They like to drink that luke warm watered down milk they get in church Sunday mornings where they preacher will make a whole sermon out of one or two scriptures. And it is usually a sermon that will tickle their ears! Make them feel all warm and good and tickly. They don't want to teach the fear of the Lord. They don't to talk about hell or judgment. They won't preach about repentance. No, they can't do that. They might lose a big tither. People might leave their church and go somewhere else to get the milk. Nope, most protestants can't eat the hard meat that will lead them to repentance. They want to hear the blessings. And to top it off, they won't have to go through any hard times because there is a secret rapture that will take them away before the tribulation. Wow!

Sorry to sound harsh but this is truth. We all need to wake up and look closely to the scriptures. This is life and death of the soul. I don't want anyone to go to the lake of fire for eternity. This is not my opinion. This is in the bible. That God wrote. By men who had already repented and living for the kingdom of God and not a friend of the world. Who can hear God. Who follow the Shepard. Where ever he goes. Who are One with Jesus which is One with God.

Believe me, It is really hard to stop sinning and to stop being a friend of the world. I still struggle every day and fail most of the time. God has given me some understanding of the bible where most Christians don't see it. But as much as I know, I still do what I am not to do and don't really do what I should do. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

 

[BobRyan]

This is an honest question to all of the non-Protestant high churches like the Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodox Church, and any other Church that says they are the One True Apostolic Catholic Church outside of which there is no salvation. So, if I were a Protestant who wanted to join one of your churches for the reason that I would want to join the one true church founded by Jesus Christ and his Apostles and not burn in Hell for not being a part of your organization which one of you is the true church? I've studied the history of the schisms and it's all very hazy. What is your argument for why your church is the true church and with the "one true church" split into four or more branches do you really have any more legitimacy to claim to be the one true church than any protestant church?

1. After Vatican II - they no longer use the "outside the church no salvation" teaching the way they used to.

2. Still today - the "New Covenant" is said to be limited to the Catholic Mass - so not available to Protestants. But they allow that Protestants are saved by a "prevenient grace" - outside the New Covenant

3. Protestants tend to stick with "sola scriptura" testing of all doctrine and practice.

 

[BNR32FAN]

The Catholic Church considered all baptized Christians to be part of the universal (Catholic) Church founded by Christ. The teaching is that there is no salvation without coming to Jesus, Protestants are part of the Church but simply lack the "fullness of the faith."

If I’m not mistaken the Roman Church has always taught that anyone baptized outside of the Roman Catholic Church their baptism is not valid.

 

[BNR32FAN]

From what I understand about Catholics is that they don't read their bibles. They spend more time reading books written by a man's opinion rather than the book written by men inspired by God. Not sure about the Orthodox type of religion but I know Catholics worship and do things that are not in the bible. Let me try to think of some examples. All, here we go. Asking a man for forgiveness, worshiping angels and saints, worshiping and praying to Mary, rosary beads, not eating meat on Friday, and how about removing one of the ten commandments (3.Though shall not make any graven images) and splitting the 10th commandment in two. Then I notice most Catholics (not all) and Lutherans vote democrat which supports the murder of babies and sodomy. (remember Sodom and Gomorrah?)

Now on the other hand, Protestants may read their bible. But they pick and choose what to read! They like to drink that luke warm watered down milk they get in church Sunday mornings where they preacher will make a whole sermon out of one or two scriptures. And it is usually a sermon that will tickle their ears! Make them feel all warm and good and tickly. They don't want to teach the fear of the Lord. They don't to talk about hell or judgment. They won't preach about repentance. No, they can't do that. They might lose a big tither. People might leave their church and go somewhere else to get the milk. Nope, most protestants can't eat the hard meat that will lead them to repentance. They want to hear the blessings. And to top it off, they won't have to go through any hard times because there is a secret rapture that will take them away before the tribulation. Wow!

Sorry to sound harsh but this is truth. We all need to wake up and look closely to the scriptures. This is life and death of the soul. I don't want anyone to go to the lake of fire for eternity. This is not my opinion. This is in the bible. That God wrote. By men who had already repented and living for the kingdom of God and not a friend of the world. Who can hear God. Who follow the Shepard. Where ever he goes. Who are One with Jesus which is One with God.

Believe me, It is really hard to stop sinning and to stop being a friend of the world. I still struggle every day and fail most of the time. God has given me some understanding of the bible where most Christians don't see it. But as much as I know, I still do what I am not to do and don't really do what I should do. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

The RCC have never worshipped the saints or Mary that’s a fabrication. I’m not familiar with any worshipping of angels, that’s a new one I’ve never heard of. I don’t agree with praying the Rosary. I don’t see a problem with fasting on Friday. And yes they did remove I believe it was the second commandment if I’m not mistaken. You forgot a really big one which is their doctrine of purgatory. The teaching that Jesus’ sacrifice didn’t pay for all our sins and we must pay for them in the afterlife unless your loved ones pays the church money then they will have the priests pray for you so that you may be removed from purgatory and allowed to enter heaven. Yeah they made that one in the 15th century coincidentally during the same time that the soliciting of indulgences (paying money for forgiveness of sin) was a big problem in the church.

 

[StillGods]

Study, pray and be humble. If you approach this subject trusting in God He will lead you to His Church. Be open to the Holy Spirit's inspirations.

None of the Main line protestant congregations were around until the reformation so it counts them out.

why does that count them out?

 

[Valletta]

From what I understand about Catholics is that they don't read their bibles. They spend more time reading books written by a man's opinion rather than the book written by men inspired by God. Not sure about the Orthodox type of religion but I know Catholics worship and do things that are not in the bible. Let me try to think of some examples. All, here we go. Asking a man for forgiveness, worshiping angels and saints, worshiping and praying to Mary, rosary beads, not eating meat on Friday, and how about removing one of the ten commandments (3.Though shall not make any graven images) and splitting the 10th commandment in two. Then I notice most Catholics (not all) and Lutherans vote democrat which supports the murder of babies and sodomy. (remember Sodom and Gomorrah?)

Now on the other hand, Protestants may read their bible. But they pick and choose what to read! They like to drink that luke warm watered down milk they get in church Sunday mornings where they preacher will make a whole sermon out of one or two scriptures. And it is usually a sermon that will tickle their ears! Make them feel all warm and good and tickly. They don't want to teach the fear of the Lord. They don't to talk about hell or judgment. They won't preach about repentance. No, they can't do that. They might lose a big tither. People might leave their church and go somewhere else to get the milk. Nope, most protestants can't eat the hard meat that will lead them to repentance. They want to hear the blessings. And to top it off, they won't have to go through any hard times because there is a secret rapture that will take them away before the tribulation. Wow!

Sorry to sound harsh but this is truth. We all need to wake up and look closely to the scriptures. This is life and death of the soul. I don't want anyone to go to the lake of fire for eternity. This is not my opinion. This is in the bible. That God wrote. By men who had already repented and living for the kingdom of God and not a friend of the world. Who can hear God. Who follow the Shepard. Where ever he goes. Who are One with Jesus which is One with God.

Believe me, It is really hard to stop sinning and to stop being a friend of the world. I still struggle every day and fail most of the time. God has given me some understanding of the bible where most Christians don't see it. But as much as I know, I still do what I am not to do and don't really do what I should do. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

There is a big difference between practicing Catholics and the rest, sometimes termed "cultural Catholics."
I would say for sure cultural Catholics mostly vote Democrat whereas practicing Catholics are heavily pro-life. Remember that the Catholic Church chose the 73 books of the Bible in a process that took centuries. Readings at mass were generally the same, but there were differences and the Church wanted readings of only Holy Scripture. It wasn't until the 300s that the books were finalized, non-Catholics, while dropping books roughly a thousand years later, keep the same order of books according to their religious traditions. As to the various anti-Catholic stories, of course Catholics did not change the Ten Commandments. If you really know the Bible, you know that although there are ten commandments the Bible does not number each commandment. As with the Bible itself Catholics did the best they could to divide what is said into ten commandments. The entire Biblical text of the Ten Commandments is included in the Catholic Catechism along with a shortened version. I am unaware of any other religion that does this. Also be aware that there was no punctuation in the original text, where you decide to punctuate can easily change a perceived grouping. It would be easy for Catholics to say of other religions that they have cut out some of God's Commandments (because the entire Biblical text is not there). But in reality I have no reason to doubt that the men who came up with the Ten Commandments you use had the best of intentions--and no one taught me otherwise. Speaking of the Ten Commandments, Catholics are fully aware that the worship given to God is for God alone. Those in Heaven can hear us, and pray for us just as you and I can pray for each other without worshiping each other, we do call upon those in Heaven to pray for us. An old prayer that we use is Psalm 103. We address the angels in Heaven, why address them if they supposedly can't hear us? As to the Rosary, the Rosary is very much praying the Bible. Non-Catholics should join us unless they have something against praying the Bible.

 

[parousia70]

The NT church is an invisible spiritual body. It becomes visible when two or more meet in Jesus' name. And then returns to invisibility. Churches today don't even remotely approach the NT model. Especially the Catholic model and similar today. These are nothing more than religious business franchises that sell goods to believers who would do better without them.

Protestants have to claim that the Church is "invisible" to try and maintain legitimacy as "the Church"--but this is biblically untenable, for the Church of the Holy Scriptures is not invisible but consists of a clear apostolic succession of ordained bishops that hold authority by virtue of their apostolic office (a calling that individuals may or may not live up to, just like the President of the U.S.A.).

Quite simply, God created a visible Church and who can deny it from scripture? Protestantism, on the other hand, is 20,000 or more denoms that teach a myriad of different things, do not recognize each other's authority or doctrines, do not work together, compete against each other, etc.etc. It seems impossible to me that anyone could claim protestantism as a legitimate form of the one true Church of scripture (or history).

 

[parousia70]

If I’m not mistaken the Roman Church has always taught that anyone baptized outside of the Roman Catholic Church their baptism is not valid.

You are Mistaken
A Guide to Catholic Baptism - About Catholics.
Does the Catholic Church accept baptisms from another church?
Yes, the Catholic Church recognizes any baptism that uses water and in which the person baptized was baptized with the Trinitarian formula.