A Question to all the Non Protestant High Churches

[parousia70]

From what I understand about Catholics is that they don't read their bibles. They spend more time reading books written by a man's opinion rather than the book written by men inspired by God.

Try me.
From what I understand about Protestants (having been one once myself) they tend to object to what they THINK Catholics believe and practice, instead of what Catholics ACTAULLY believe and practice.

God has given me some understanding of the bible where most Christians don't see it.

God Picked you to have more understanding of scripture than "Most Christians"?
Really?

Like more than Most Christians of all time, or Just more than most alive Now?

Do you think you have more understanding of the scriptures than I do?

I couldn't say until we put it to the test, so, Again, Try me... Because what's weird is that God also gave me, a Catholic, understanding of the scriptures that Most Christians don't see.

Which one of us do you think God gave more understanding of the scriptures to?
My Money is on me, the Catholic.

 

[concretecamper]

If I’m not mistaken the Roman Church has always taught that anyone baptized outside of the Roman Catholic Church their baptism is not valid.

WRONG. Encyclopedia Britanica.com I presume?

 

[concretecamper]

why does that count them out?

becasue they were started by Men such as Henry VIII, Luther, Smith, Calvin, etc.

 

[concretecamper]

It's true. There are at least a half-dozen separate denominations/communions that can point to a first century origin.

great idea, narrow it down a bit. Of course that would eliminate all the protestant communions that were born out of the reformation such as the Anglicans.

 

[concretecamper]

The teaching that Jesus’ sacrifice didn’t pay for all our sins and we must pay for them in the afterlife unless your loved ones pays the church money then they will have the priests pray for you so that you may be removed from purgatory and allowed to enter heaven.

more Britanica.com nonsense? This statement is so wrong.

 

[Albion]

If I’m not mistaken the Roman Church has always taught that anyone baptized outside of the Roman Catholic Church their baptism is not valid.

Not sure how to handle the "always" in that, but the Roman Catholic Church considers all baptisms performed in the name of the Triune God and done with the use of water to be valid.

 

[Magnanimity]

On the other hand, we do not say to you that you are bound for hell if you choose Christ but do not also join our branch of Christianity.

In fairness to both Orthodoxy and Catholicism, the "bound for Hell" stuff is passé. Contemporary Orthodoxy and Catholicism abound with high-profile universalists (or at least those open to the plausibility of universalism). I'm happy to supply names..

The Eastern Orthodox Church teaches that there is salvation outside of the EOC. I believe only Roman Catholicism teaches that there is no salvation outside of the RCC.

No, in section 16 of the Vatican 2 document Lumen Gentium there is a fundamental reorienting of this teaching completely. It explicitly admits that persons outside of the church can be saved, even those of no particular religion at all who are following the dictates of conscience.

 

[Valletta]

The RCC have never worshipped the saints or Mary that’s a fabrication. I’m not familiar with any worshipping of angels, that’s a new one I’ve never heard of. I don’t agree with praying the Rosary. I don’t see a problem with fasting on Friday. And yes they did remove I believe it was the second commandment if I’m not mistaken. You forgot a really big one which is their doctrine of purgatory. The teaching that Jesus’ sacrifice didn’t pay for all our sins and we must pay for them in the afterlife unless your loved ones pays the church money then they will have the priests pray for you so that you may be removed from purgatory and allowed to enter heaven. Yeah they made that one in the 15th century coincidentally during the same time that the soliciting of indulgences (paying money for forgiveness of sin) was a big problem in the church.

You're wrong, the entire Biblical text of the Ten Commandments is in the Catholic Catechism. Perhaps you would put down what you think are the Ten Commandments and I would be glad to take a look and see if you missed any text. Purgatory

The church protested Catholicism. But the protestant church still believed what the first-century church taught and believed except for the Pentecostal additions of the 20th century. And infant baptism. The Monarchial Bishops were a man-made addition to scripture that resulted in the Institutional Churches.

In fairness to both Orthodoxy and Catholicism, the "bound for Hell" stuff is passé. Contemporary Orthodoxy and Catholicism abound with high-profile universalists (or at least those open to the plausibility of universalism). I'm happy to supply names..



No, in section 16 of the Vatican 2 document Lumen Gentium there is a fundamental reorienting of this teaching completely. It explicitly admits that persons outside of the church can be saved, even those of no particular religion at all who are following the dictates of conscience.

I believe the Catechism also takes it right from Lumen Gentium:
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation. 337

 

[Xarto]

It is a deep a subject and not as simple as saying if you aren't Catholic you are damned. Try this... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extra_Ecclesiam_nulla_salus

Btw there isn't much difference between Catholics, Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox, we agree on more than we disagree on. On the whole we would view them as basically the same as us we were all founded at the same time and were one church, please God one day we will be reunited. Oh and we all have at a minimum 73 books in the Bible, they have a few extra.

 

[The Liturgist]

Come on, digging up the body of your predecessor to put him on trial isn't weird!

Indeed, I strongly recommend this practice to professional accountants. Failing to properly debit and credit the correct ledgers and obtain the right deductions is after all a most grievous offense...

 

[The Liturgist]

From what I understand about Catholics is that they don't read their bibles. They spend more time reading books written by a man's opinion rather than the book written by men inspired by God.

If that were the case then the proliferation of excellent Roman Catholic translations used in many cases even by Protestants, since the 16th century, would be unexpected and superfluous.

Not sure about the Orthodox type of religion but I know Catholics worship and do things that are not in the bible. Let me try to think of some examples. All, here we go. Asking a man for forgiveness,

That is a common misconception about their sacrament of confession, although I prefer the Eastern Orthodox approach to it, which lacks the mandatory penance aspect of Latin Rite Catholicism.

worshiping angels and saints,

This is not Roman Catholic doctrine. That some poorly-catechized provincials do this is known, but the vast majority of Roman Catholics Ive met understand that worship is due only to God, and to the saints they offer veneration, which is entirely different.

worshiping and praying to Mary,

Praying to her, yes, worshipping her, no, except for the “Fifth Dogma”/Ida Peeredeman sect that advocates a change in RC church doctrine.

rosary beads, not eating meat on Friday,

Fasting on Wednesday and Friday in memory of the betrayal and cruifixion of our Lord is an ancient Christian practice, dating back to the first century (enjoined in the first century Didache) and recommended to Protestants by no less a man than John Wesley, the founder of Methodism.

and how about removing one of the ten commandments (3.Though shall not make any graven images) and splitting the 10th commandment in two.

I shall only say this once, so that there is no misunderstanding: there are no graven images in the Catholic or Orthodox churches. Icons are not idols. In fact if I were to criticize Rome on this point I would object to the relative lack of icons compared to the Eastern Orthodox, and the lack of regularity in religious imagery (for example, the paintings in the Sistine Chapel are exquisite, yet regrettably one might argue not useful in an EO/OO iconographic context).

 

[Thomas White]

This is an honest question to all of the non-Protestant high churches like the Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodox Church, and any other Church that says they are the One True Apostolic Catholic Church outside of which there is no salvation. So, if I were a Protestant who wanted to join one of your churches for the reason that I would want to join the one true church founded by Jesus Christ and his Apostles and not burn in Hell for not being a part of your organization which one of you is the true church? I've studied the history of the schisms and it's all very hazy. What is your argument for why your church is the true church and with the "one true church" split into four or more branches do you really have any more legitimacy to claim to be the one true church than any protestant church? I'm not trying to start an argument here I really am curious as to the arguments as I am open to joining one of your churches if you give a convincing answer and God tells me to but as a protestant, this seems to be the most screwy thing to me about your churches.

I can't speak about the others, but the Catholic Church does not believe that it is the only path to salvation.

 

[StillGods]

becasue they were started by Men such as Henry VIII, Luther, Smith, Calvin, etc.

God uses men all the time, I dont see how that counts as a reason against them.

 

[concretecamper]

God uses men all the time, I dont see how that counts as a reason against them.

of course God uses men. But to break and draw people from His Son's Church, I dont think so.

 

[StillGods]

of course God uses men. But to break and draw people from His Son's Church, I dont think so.

Gods Son is the head of those churches though, because the reformation gave the people access to the Word of God for themselves so they could have Jesus as their Lord and Saviour.

 

[John Mullally]

Now on the other hand, Protestants may read their bible. But they pick and choose what to read! They like to drink that luke warm watered down milk they get in church Sunday mornings where they preacher will make a whole sermon out of one or two scriptures.

That has not been my limited experience. I like getting out of denominational circles, sample what other denominations are saying, listen to my gut, and also check everything against scripture - maybe I'm weird - treasure hunting.

 

[prodromos]

Pope Clement of Rome (late 80s AD) wrote a letter to the Corinthians, and the letter was in response to THEIR appeal to him to solve a serious doctrinal division they were having. So, even in the late first century there were apostolic Churches that were making appeals to the Bishop of Rome to settle grave disputes.

This ignores all the other reasons why the Church in Corinth would appeal to Clement who was bishop in Rome.

• Corinth was a Roman colony. The original Greek inhabitants had been slaughtered or sold into slavery after a failed uprising in 146 BC. It was established as a Roman city in 44 BC.
• There was regular trade between Rome and Corinth which facilitated regular communication.
• The Church in Corinth had been established by the Apostle Paul. Clement was his companion and fellow worker. With Paul gone, it is natural that they would seek guidance from someone close to him.

 

[Dave L]

You're wrong, the entire Biblical text of the Ten Commandments is in the Catholic Catechism. Perhaps you would put down what you think are the Ten Commandments and I would be glad to take a look and see if you missed any text. Purgatory


I believe the Catechism also takes it right from Lumen Gentium:
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation. 337

The New Covenant abolished the Old Covenant. The Old Covenant could not save. It only threatened wicked people with death for disobedience.

“Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, That I will make a new covenant With the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers In the day that I took them by the hand To bring them out of the land of Egypt; Which my covenant they brake, Although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, And write it in their hearts; And will be their God, And they shall be my people.” Jeremiah 31:31–33 (KJV 1900)

 

[Dave L]

Protestants have to claim that the Church is "invisible" to try and maintain legitimacy as "the Church"--but this is biblically untenable, for the Church of the Holy Scriptures is not invisible but consists of a clear apostolic succession of ordained bishops that hold authority by virtue of their apostolic office (a calling that individuals may or may not live up to, just like the President of the U.S.A.).

Quite simply, God created a visible Church and who can deny it from scripture? Protestantism, on the other hand, is 20,000 or more denoms that teach a myriad of different things, do not recognize each other's authority or doctrines, do not work together, compete against each other, etc.etc. It seems impossible to me that anyone could claim protestantism as a legitimate form of the one true Church of scripture (or history).

The church is the body of Christ. Not a chain business franchise selling services to the church.

 

[GreekOrthodox]

The church is the body of Christ. Not a chain business franchise selling services to the church.

What we see in Scripture is Paul setting someone up as a leader of a new community, ekklesia, such as Timothy or Titus. As communities grew and expanded in to new areas, those leaders would set up someone as a leader, or in Biblical terms, episkopos, in English, Bishop. It prevented, at least in theory, someone who was not recognized as a legitimate bishop from exercising authority over a congregation. Since Christianity spread in urban centers, a distinction grew between the episkopos and presbyter, where we get our terms of bishop and priest in English. The bishop was the recognized leader in that city while priests worked under his authority.

As for franchise Christianity, for a fee you can get "ordained" by a group of bishops that are not attached to any canonical church. So you'll see these weird designations of "ordained by Bp. X of the Holy Apostolic Orthodox Catholic Church of North Central Kentucky, Bp. Y of the Orthodox Catholic Holy Apostolic Church of Alabama, and Bp. Z of the Catholic Orthodox Eastern Apostolic Church of Holy Newark NJ." or some mumbo-jumbo like that. The most infamous is Dr. Chief Alexander Swift Eagle Justice and claims to be Metropolitan of the Imperial Holy Orthodox Synod of the Holy Orthodox Church of All Russia and Appointed Chief Patriarch for United States - California, Mexico and for All Latin American Countries aka Bishop Draperod.

PS... Oh yes, Prodromos, I went there (in fact, I found your post to find the picture!)