A question for athiests

Alunyel · Sep 9, 2009

jpcedotal said:
Just to add...

I would be all for letting Creationism and evolution be taught in our public schools. In fact, how about making it a requirement to our children to take Creationism I and evolution I, then letting them decide WITHOUT penalty if they would like to take either C II or E II or both the next year or two?

Is that so wrong? Isn't that showing more open-mindness than what naturalist/atheists/agnostics show now?

They don't teach creationism for the same reason they don't teach geocentrism or that the Earth is flat.

Because it's wrong, having an "open mind" won't change that anymore than having an open mind and teaching that the Earth is flat will make a flat Earth any more true.

Creationism is simply a system based on faith, or blind belief. It's got nothing, aside from the Bible, to support it.

Why should they teach creationism in any lesson other than Religious Studies?

Do you know what something has to go through, before it's allowed to be included in the science curriculum? It has to go from a hypothesis, it has to be tested, predictions have to be made and attempts to falsify them have to be made. Conclusions have to be drawn, and the hypothesis has to be amended if the conclusion doesn't match the prediction. It has to be published in a journal and peer-reviewed, undergoing the harshest scientific scrutiny, with thousands of experts doing their best to disprove it. Creationism can't just bypass all of that just because it says it in a old book, and a few people want to take an "open minded" approach.

CoderHead · Sep 9, 2009

jpcedotal said:
You bring up a valid point in the last paragraph. As long as the equal time includes time given to evolution as well. In other words, take what the top 3, 4 or 5 "Beginnings" are and give them equal time each year any one belief (sorry had to use that term) is taught. I don't want one to be taught to third graders only..

But I think this is where your side is breaking down. If you want to talk about "beginnings" let's not pit evolution against creation. To be proper, you'd be giving equal time to the Big Bang and creation. However, I still feel I need to stress this one point:

Creationism is not science.

The Big Bang, Abiogenesis, and Evolution are all science. They rely on evidence, observation, and testing. As such, they belong in schools. Creationism rests on theology and as such, belongs in church.

Let me ask you a question: if you were positively adamant that you didn't want your kids learning about evolution, couldn't you enroll them in a Christian school that has no obligation to teach evolution?

jpcedotal · Sep 9, 2009

tanzanos said:
So basically you are calling me a liar? I assure you; not only do I not have a need to worship a god, I don't even go beyond admiration for people I consider worthy! I worship nothing and no one. I admire science and its achievements but WORSHIP? That is a little on the heavy side!

I only stated what I believe. If it is not what you believe then we just agree to disagree.

jpcedotal · Sep 9, 2009

Alunyel said:
They don't teach creationism for the same reason they don't teach geocentrism or that the Earth is flat.

Because it's wrong, having an "open mind" won't change that anymore than having an open mind and teaching that the Earth is flat will make a flat Earth any more true.

Creationism is simply a system based on faith, or blind belief. It's got nothing, aside from the Bible, to support it.

Why should they teach creationism in any lesson other than Religious Studies?

Do you know what something has to go through, before it's allowed to be included in the science curriculum? It has to go from a hypothesis, it has to be tested, predictions have to be made and attempts to falsify them have to be made. Conclusions have to be drawn, and the hypothesis has to be amended if the conclusion doesn't match the prediction. It has to be published in a journal and peer-reviewed, undergoing the harshest scientific scrutiny, with thousands of experts doing their best to disprove it. Creationism can't just bypass all of that just because it says it in a old book, and a few people want to take an "open minded" approach.

You forgot that the right amount of money has to be thrown at it and the right leaders have to support it.

jpcedotal · Sep 9, 2009

CoderHead said:
But I think this is where your side is breaking down. If you want to talk about "beginnings" let's not pit evolution against creation. To be proper, you'd be giving equal time to the Big Bang and creation. However, I still feel I need to stress this one point:

Creationism is not science.

The Big Bang, Abiogenesis, and Evolution are all science. They rely on evidence, observation, and testing. As such, they belong in schools. Creationism rests on theology and as such, belongs in church.

Let me ask you a question: if you were positively adamant that you didn't want your kids learning about evolution, couldn't you enroll them in a Christian school that has no obligation to teach evolution?

Then you bring money into play. I pay taxes just like you do. Why not set up on school per district that teaches Creationism if that is what the majority of the district believes. Around here, nothing is taught, evolution or Creationism because if Creationism is left out then the teachers just "forget" to teach evolution as well. Most if not all the districts around here would vote Creationism if they could but it is not even given as an option. We are "forced" to teach something we do not believe in or nothing at all, so we pick nothing which is just as bad in my opinion.

jpcedotal · Sep 9, 2009

Why not give each district a choice?

Apparently evolution/big bang isn't as cut and dry fact as you would want us to believe. Are you going to just blame it on ignorance?

If the government gave the schools a choice....what do you think would happen?

Alunyel · Sep 9, 2009

jpcedotal said:
You forgot that the right amount of money has to be thrown at it and the right leaders have to support it.

The money's only needed during the testing phase. When a hypothesis is made, they need to devise a way to test that hypothesis.

For example, when the hypothesis was that H and He atoms form clouds, through gravity, and get so dense that their gravitational field causes atomic fusion to occur, stars are created, including the first stars, they devised a way to test it. They decided to look so far away, that by the time the information reaches us, we're seeing the universe as it was billions of years ago. They predicted that if their hypothesis were true, they would see patchy clouds of hydrogen and helium gasses, with denser areas generating more energy.

Their conclusion supported their prediction, and thus, their hypothesis, but looking that far away was very, very expensive.

Once that's been established, it'll be taught. Obviously cosmic microwave background is too complex for school, though.

Your signature still makes me laugh. I don't believe evolution explains the origin of the universe, either, that's absurd. Evolution explains the biodiversity of life. It's got absolutely nothing to do with the origin of the universe.

But then, I don't expect much more from someone who thinks something is wrong because it contradicts their religious beliefs, even when the evidence for it is overwhelming. He says it's wrong, but blatently doesn't even understand it.

jpcedotal · Sep 9, 2009

So would you be for letting the district decide what is taught since you are so much more open-minded than myself?

jpcedotal · Sep 9, 2009

Why is this a national level debate? Why not let us backwoods rednecks teach our kids what we want in out local schools.

Why does something so "obvious" have to be force taught? We are not against teaching English and Mathematics and History (as long as it sticks to the facts) and Biology and even Earth Science (to a point).

Christians are not against science, just religion pretending to be science.

Alunyel · Sep 9, 2009

jpcedotal said:
Then you bring money into play. I pay taxes just like you do. Why not set up on school per district that teaches Creationism if that is what the majority of the district believes. Around here, nothing is taught, evolution or Creationism because if Creationism is left out then the teachers just "forget" to teach evolution as well. Most if not all the districts around here would vote Creationism if they could but it is not even given as an option. We are "forced" to teach something we do not believe in or nothing at all, so we pick nothing which is just as bad in my opinion.

Truth isn't measured in mass appeal.

Science deals in facts. Things evolve, that's a fact. Creation is not. It doesn't matter how many people believe creation is true, it has absolutely no place being taught in a science class.

Just look up the Kitzmiller vs Dover trial.

CoderHead · Sep 9, 2009

jpcedotal said:
Christians are not against science, just religion pretending to be science.

Then please, tell us again why you want Creationism taught in schools...?

CoderHead · Sep 9, 2009

And can I also ask whether or not your intent was to hijack this thread and turn it into an Evolution debate? We've gone way off topic since you posted an hour and a half ago. Before that, the thread stuck to atheists' reasons for not being Christians.

jpcedotal · Sep 9, 2009

Alunyel said:
Your signature still makes me laugh. I don't believe evolution explains the origin of the universe, either, that's absurd. Evolution explains the biodiversity of life. It's got absolutely nothing to do with the origin of the universe.

But then, I don't expect much more from someone who thinks something is wrong because it contradicts their religious beliefs, even when the evidence for it is overwhelming. He says it's wrong, but blatantly doesn't even understand it.

Your answer is the basis of my argument. How many divisions and theories have to work together in order to come up with the complete naturalist view? Is there a complete view?

CoderHead · Sep 9, 2009

You do understand that these theories don't work like, "A huge explosion happened and then, BOOM, monkeys turned into humans!" Right?

jpcedotal · Sep 9, 2009

CoderHead said:
And can I also ask whether or not your intent was to hijack this thread and turn it into an Evolution debate? We've gone way off topic since you posted an hour and a half ago. Before that, the thread stuck to atheists' reasons for not being Christians.

True to a point.....I will keep my comments specifically based on atheist reasons.

Sorry...was this your thread?

jpcedotal · Sep 9, 2009

CoderHead said:
You do understand that these theories don't work like, "A huge explosion happened and then, BOOM, monkeys turned into humans!" Right?

No, but I also know there is more faith involved than what naturalist will admit.

CoderHead · Sep 9, 2009

jpcedotal said:
Sorry...was this your thread?

No, it's not my thread. But it had a solid topic with some really good replies. I just hated to see it go south. Didn't mean to sound like the thread police or anything.

AV1611VET · Sep 9, 2009

Just to put my 2¢ in here, Creationism should not be taught in the public school system.

This is because I don't believe our teachers are qualified to teach it the way it should be taught.

Namely, they should stick to creationism being an act of history, not science.

Creationism should be taught in the church, not the schools.

And by the same token, I don't think evolution should be taught at all, anywhere.

Alunyel · Sep 9, 2009

jpcedotal said:
Why is this a national level debate? Why not let us backwoods rednecks teach our kids what we want in out local schools.

Because you''d end up teaching things that are wrong, and passing off opinion as fact, to young people who are incredibly impressionable.

Teaching creation in science class goes against the first amendment.

Why does something so "obvious" have to be force taught? We are not against teaching English and Mathematics and History (as long as it sticks to the facts) and Biology and even Earth Science (to a point).

Evolution is a fact, whether you believe it or not is irrelevant.

Christians are not against science, just religion pretending to be science.

That's exactly what creationism is... Again, look at the Dover trial.

jpcedotal · Sep 9, 2009

Like

"these exact conditions had to happen at this exact time, but we can't duplicate it in the lab so you will just have to take our word for it."

or

The world just always was...eerrr no wait, a big bang happened and the universe is always expanding...eerrr no wait, the universe cycles from expansion to contraction to expansion over and over

whew, almost proved God there gotta stay away from that, right?

A question for athiests

Alunyel

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