A question about the Garden before the fall

[eleos1954]

That is interesting because I see it completely opposite.
There is real-life real-world evidence that would imply this is not true. My goal is to "meld" God's word with reality. There is a great deal of evidence around us that requires an old creation. This evidences are not lies. These evidences are not planted by God to trick us. I see the "problem" as an opportunity to find answers. I am not afraid to ask questions and seek truth. Jesus said we will know the truth and that the truth will set us free! Intentionally turning away from reality is not faith. It is head in the sand and counter productive.

Soft tissue found in dinosaur bones ... I agree God does not trick anyone ... He is very clear about creation in His Word.

Nothing wrong with asking questions ... misinterpretation of the "evidence" ... like that can't happen in science? Happens all the time. Theories vary and change.

Debatable who has their head in the sand.

My goal is to "meld" God's word with reality.

Either God's Word is reality .... or it is not.

 

[eleos1954]

Yes, physical death is just a biochemical process that is attached to the course of nature.

God says death entered the world through sin .... through the sin of Adam and Eve.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Soft tissue found in dinosaur bones ... I agree God does not trick anyone ... He is very clear about creation in His Word.

Nothing wrong with asking questions ... misinterpretation of the "evidence" ... like that can't happen in science? Happens all the time. Theories vary and change.

Debatable who has their head in the sand.
Either God's Word is reality .... or it is not.

I agree 100% with the last phrase. But God's word does not contradict reality. If the creation looks old... then it most likely is, very old. If when I stand before the Lord He asks me why I believed what I believed, I will be able to be honest. I believed it because of your Word, because you do not lie, and I believed the real things I saw around me. I strived to profess my belief of the invisible things, and to not deny the reality that was before my eyes. Faith is not denial of that which is real.
At some point, denial of reality become a lie. All denial needs to become a lie is the motive of fear and doubt.
I am remined of Picard and the lights... to which I say:
"There are four lights..."

 

[eleos1954]

I agree 100% with the last phrase. But God's word does not contradict reality. If the creation looks old... then it most likely is, very old. If when I stand before the Lord He asks me why I believed what I believed, I will be able to be honest. I believed it because of your Word, because you do not lie, and I believed the real things I saw around me. I strived to profess my belief of the invisible things, and to not deny the reality that was before my eyes. Faith is not denial of that which is real.
At some point, denial of reality become a lie. All denial needs to become a lie is the motive of fear and doubt.
I am remined of Picard and the lights... to which I say:
"There are four lights..."

Jesus never denied the creation account ... affirmed it.

in Mark 10:6 Jesus said, “But from the beginning of creation, God ‘made them male and female.’” In the statement “from the beginning of creation”3 Adam and Eve were there at the beginning of creation, on Day Six (same day animals were created), not billions of years before the beginning.

You are not believing what you see .... you are believing theories that are put forth and dismissing the simplicity of creation as His Word puts forth.

There are still many beautiful things in our world to behold. Remnants from Gods perfect original creation.

I'm sticking with His Word. Either it's all true .... or none of it is true.

 

[Job 33:6]

Jesus never denied the creation account ... affirmed it.

in Mark 10:6 Jesus said, “But from the beginning of creation, God ‘made them male and female.’” In the statement “from the beginning of creation”3 Adam and Eve were there at the beginning of creation, on Day Six (same day animals were created), not billions of years before the beginning.

You are not believing what you see .... you are believing theories that are put forth and dismissing the simplicity of creation as His Word puts forth.

There are still many beautiful things in our world to behold. Remnants from Gods perfect original creation.

I'm sticking with His Word. Either it's all true .... or none of it is true.

If someone proposed a theory of gravity, and I experience the weight of my body pulling down toward earth, then who am I to deny my observations on the basis that man created a theory of gravity?

This is just believing in that which God created, as is old earth geology.

 

[eleos1954]

If someone proposed a theory of gravity, and I experience the weight of my body pulling down toward earth, then who am I to deny my observations on the basis that man created a theory of gravity?

This is just believing in that which God created, as is old earth geology.

God created gravity.

God created everything .... science discovers things about creation and does attempt to explain it without a creator using theories .... it's the base that one chooses to come from in the first place.

 

[Job 33:6]

God created gravity.

God created everything .... science discovers things about creation and does attempt to explain it without a creator using theories .... it's the base that one chooses to come from in the first place.

Of course God created gravity.

So the point is that, we, as people, use the theory of gravity to describe God's creation.

And so we observe gravity and experience gravity, and therefore accept the theory of gravity and believe in what God has created. And the same is the case with an old earth. We use a theory of plate tectonics to describe God's creation. And the theory of Earth. We experience and observe these theories, and thus attribute these experiences to God as God created earth, described in the theory of the earth.

 

[brinny]

Well where did they come from if they weren't in the garden during the original creation event?

Well where did they come from if they weren't in the garden during the original creation event?

There was no death, corruption, sin, sickness, and no curse before the fall, and when God said that all that He created was very good. It was, including every creature that lived and breathed.

There was no sickness or anything that would've caused or carried sickness. There also was no thorns, weeds, etc.that would've added a burden to tending to and tilling the garden.

The curse brought forth all that was contrary to life, including sickness and suffering, deterioration, and corruption.

This would've included "unclean" creatures, etc.

 

[Torah Keeper]

Option #5 sidesteps the question. You could have said "elephant" instead.

 

[Job 33:6]

There was no death, corruption, sin, sickness, and no curse before the fall, and when God said that all that He created was very good. It was, including every creature that lived and breathed.

There was no sickness or anything that would've caused or carried sickness. There also was no thorns, weeds, etc.that would've added a burden to tending to and tilling the garden.

The curse brought forth all that was contrary to life, including sickness and suffering, deterioration, and corruption.

This would've included "unclean" creatures, etc.

So if flies were not on earth, were they in outer space? Just trying to understand where they came from.

 

[brinny]

So if flies were not on earth, were they in outer space? Just trying to understand where they came from.

They came with the fall, when God pronounced a curse, including "thorns", etc. to cause hardship for Adam in his tilling, so much so, that Adam would eat his bread by the "sweat of his brow". He would struggle now to eat.

Remember the curse when God pronounced it after Adam and Eve heeded Satan and disobeyed?

 

[Job 33:6]

They came with the fall, when God pronounced a curse, including "thorns", etc. to cause hardship for Adam in his tilling, so much so, that Adam would eat his bread by the "sweat of his brow". He would struggle now to eat.

Remember the curse when God pronounced it after Adam and Eve heeded Satan and disobeyed?

What do you mean "came with"? Did God conduct another creation event?

 

[eleos1954]

Of course God created gravity.

So the point is that, we, as people, use the theory of gravity to describe God's creation.

And so we observe gravity and experience gravity, and therefore accept the theory of gravity and believe in what God has created. And the same is the case with an old earth. We use a theory of plate tectonics to describe God's creation. And the theory of Earth. We experience and observe these theories, and thus attribute these experiences to God as God created earth, described in the theory of the earth.

Billions of years are not observable nor testable ... can only be theorized.

Look how many times you use the word theory.

Testable ....

Testing has changed over the years as more technology becomes available.

Soft tissue found in dinosaur bones, interpretation within geology. Carbon dating and other methods of dating are not consistent. This has been found doing testing on known volcanic eruptions (known when they occurred) and the testing (dating) not matching up with what is known.

Creation scientists/non-creation scientists .... like I said it depends of what "base" one is coming from in the first place how the data is interpreted/accepted.

 

[Job 33:6]

Billions of years are not observable nor testable ... can only be theorized.

Look how many times you use the word theory.

Testable ....

Testing has changed over the years as more technology becomes available.

Soft tissue found in dinosaur bones, interpretation within geology. Carbon dating and other methods of dating are not consistent. This has been found doing testing on known volcanic eruptions (known when they occurred) and the testing (dating) not matching up with what is known.

Creation scientists/non-creation scientists .... like I said it depends of what "base" one is coming from in the first place how the data is interpreted/accepted.

As a geologist, I disagree. I'd say it's absolutely testable and is better affirmed even than the theory of gravity.

 

[eleos1954]

As a geologist, I disagree. I'd say it's absolutely testable and is better affirmed even than the theory of gravity.

Your base is science ... so not surprising.

 

[brinny]

What do you mean "came with"? Did God conduct another creation event?

When God pronounced the curse, do you remember what was involved in that curse, and why?

 

[Job 33:6]

When God pronounced the curse, do you remember what was involved in that curse, and why?

Genesis 3:18 says thorns and thistles will sprout and that Adam shall eat from the field. And that Adam would eat bread until he returned to the ground.

I'm not seeing anything about the creation of dinosaurs and insects though.

Are you arguing that this curse in which thorns would sprout, implies that dinosaurs weren't around prior to this curse? Because dinosaurs sprouted like thorns?

 

[brinny]

Genesis 3:18 says thorns and thistles will sprout and that Adam shall eat from the field. And that Adam would eat bread until he returned to the ground.

I'm not seeing anything about the creation of dinosaurs and insects though.

Are you arguing that this curse in which thorns would sprout, implies that dinosaurs weren't around prior to this curse? Because dinosaurs sprouted like thorns?

No.

What do you think the "fall" means, and what would that involve?

In addition, are you aware that the serpent Satan embodied when he tempted Eve, lost its legs, as part of the curse?

 

[J_B_]

Yes. It seems to me that if God's message needed us to know these things, He would have made them very plain and clear for us. But they are not; there are all sorts of opinions held by good and God-loving Christians.

That being so, I try to base my faith on the things He clearly tells us about.

These types of statements make me smile - that you and I can agree on this and yet disagree on so many things. Still, it's an important lesson that Christians can disagree and still regard each other as brothers in Christ.

It would be easy to concoct all kinds of speculative scenarios where the beetle manages to avoid death, but working within the intent of the OP, if a dinosaur stepped on a beetle, it would die. Beetles with special dinosaur-resistant powers did not exist in antiquity nor dinosaurs with beetle-radar. Whether such a thing ever happened in Eden ... we just don't know.

Again, working within the intent of the OP, the example isn't really necessary. The question is: Was there death in Eden? Again, it becomes a "What do you mean by death?" thing that ends in "I don't know." It ends that way not because I don't know what I mean, but I can't be certain what God meant by "death".

With that said, my current theology includes the following:
* When God spoke to Adam & Eve, Adam didn't turn to Eve and say, "I see his mouth moving, but all I hear is "Wah Wa Wa Wah Wa Wa". In other words, When God spoke Genesis 2:17 Adam understood him. That means Adam knew what death was. I suspect he knew because he had seen it.
* Though in biological terms plants are life, in theological terms they aren't. Plants don't have souls that need saving - that hope for eternal life. Maybe harvesting plants for food was enough of an analogy for Adam to understand death, but I suspect there was more to it.
* I don't separate body, soul, and spirit as the Greeks did. Dead is dead. "Spiritual death" is not in my lexicon, though it could serve a purpose to define nonbelievers if it weren't constantly conflated into an experiential reality. What would that even mean? That the spirit dies? But ... what then of hell?
* While living in Eden, death was always a possibility for Adam & Eve. The only thing that prevented it was that God allowed them to eat from the Tree of Life. As such, the Tree was both a physical reality and a powerful symbol and foretelling of Christ's future work on the Cross - the Tree of Life. Without the Tree of Life, there is no eternal life, but only death. Therefore, banishment from Eden was a death sentence, and Adam & Eve knew it. That is something that maybe only the churches who have retained the Sacraments understand - that outside of Eden God has partially restored what Adam & Eve had in Eden.

Were animals allowed to eat from the Tree of Life? Maybe. The Bible never says, so we don't know. But, there is a strong implication that banishment from Eden meant there was always something of creation outside Eden. Animals were already living (and dying) outside Eden. There is also a strong implication Adam & Eve knew that. Maybe they traveled outside Eden as part of their role as caretaker. If so, they saw death.

There is a rather obscure aspect of Lutheran theology that is rarely mentioned, and seems to be unique to Lutherans. That is, when Adam & Eve left Eden the thing they lost as a result of Original Sin was their status as a creation in the image of God. Leaving Eden meant they became animals in a literal sense. It is to that status that Christ restores us. That was always the purpose of the Christ, even in Eden where Adam & Eve walked with him.

 

[Job 33:6]

These types of statements make me smile - that you and I can agree on this and yet disagree on so many things. Still, it's an important lesson that Christians can disagree and still regard each other as brothers in Christ.

It would be easy to concoct all kinds of speculative scenarios where the beetle manages to avoid death, but working within the intent of the OP, if a dinosaur stepped on a beetle, it would die. Beetles with special dinosaur-resistant powers did not exist in antiquity nor dinosaurs with beetle-radar. Whether such a thing ever happened in Eden ... we just don't know.

Again, working within the intent of the OP, the example isn't really necessary. The question is: Was there death in Eden? Again, it becomes a "What do you mean by death?" thing that ends in "I don't know." It ends that way not because I don't know what I mean, but I can't be certain what God meant by "death".

With that said, my current theology includes the following:
* When God spoke to Adam & Eve, Adam didn't turn to Eve and say, "I see his mouth moving, but all I hear is "Wah Wa Wa Wah Wa Wa". In other words, When God spoke Genesis 2:17 Adam understood him. That means Adam knew what death was. I suspect he knew because he had seen it.
* Though in biological terms plants are life, in theological terms they aren't. Plants don't have souls that need saving - that hope for eternal life. Maybe harvesting plants for food was enough of an analogy for Adam to understand death, but I suspect there was more to it.
* I don't separate body, soul, and spirit as the Greeks did. Dead is dead. "Spiritual death" is not in my lexicon, though it could serve a purpose to define nonbelievers if it weren't constantly conflated into an experiential reality. What would that even mean? That the spirit dies? But ... what then of hell?
* While living in Eden, death was always a possibility for Adam & Eve. The only thing that prevented it was that God allowed them to eat from the Tree of Life. As such, the Tree was both a physical reality and a powerful symbol and foretelling of Christ's future work on the Cross - the Tree of Life. Without the Tree of Life, there is no eternal life, but only death. Therefore, banishment from Eden was a death sentence, and Adam & Eve knew it. That is something that maybe only the churches who have retained the Sacraments understand - that outside of Eden God has partially restored what Adam & Eve had in Eden.

Were animals allowed to eat from the Tree of Life? Maybe. The Bible never says, so we don't know. But, there is a strong implication that banishment from Eden meant there was always something of creation outside Eden. Animals were already living (and dying) outside Eden. There is also a strong implication Adam & Eve knew that. Maybe they traveled outside Eden as part of their role as caretaker. If so, they saw death.

There is a rather obscure aspect of Lutheran theology that is rarely mentioned, and seems to be unique to Lutherans. That is, when Adam & Eve left Eden the thing they lost as a result of Original Sin was their status as a creation in the image of God. Leaving Eden meant they became animals in a literal sense. It is to that status that Christ restores us. That was always the purpose of the Christ, even in Eden where Adam & Eve walked with him.

That's an interesting thought. If the garden of Eden was a garden, could fish that filled the seas also be in the garden? And the birds flew over the earth (not just flew in the garden).

Fish were most likely not in the garden (at least not all fish). And presumably wouldn't be picking fruit off of a tree either, and thus wouldn't be sustained by the tree of life.

We may never know why God would have created a tree of life if there was no death to begin with (for those who believe in no death before the fall). Everything was created good and immortal, but God made the tree of life as some sort of contingency or backup plan to make up for some of the less good things (which oddly enough the tree was eventually destroyed anyway?).