A question about the Garden before the fall

[Job 33:6]

We could ask the same about God creating Lucifer aka Satan. Why would God create a creature that attempt to overthrow Him, kill Him, and usurp His Throne, if He knew this would happen?

Did God make a mistake?

Does God ever make a mistake?

Did God embrace death and call it "good"?

If so, what was the purpose of it, and why was the death of His only begotten Son needed?

You DO realize that the entire earth is groaning in anticipation of when God makes "all things new", right?

The bottom line, is this:

Is the living God the God of life or death?

What does He say He is?

The purpose of the tree of life, of course was to grant eternal life to the mortals who ate of it. Genesis 2:9 and Genesis 3:22. That's what scripture says that the tree of life does, and that's how God created it. That's why it's called the tree of life, because it grants sustained life.

The tree was created to sustain mortal beings.
Mortal beings can experience death.
The tree existed before the fall, and therefore, mortal beings that could experience death existed before the fall.

That's the simple answer. I only ask the question to those who may think that people were immortal before the fall. In my opinion, scripture clearly states otherwise.

 

[brinny]

The purpose of the tree of life, of course was to grant eternal life to the mortals who ate of it. Genesis 2:9 and Genesis 3:22

The tree was created to sustain mortal beings.
Mortal beings can experience death.
The tree existed before the fall, and therefore, mortal beings and death existed before the fall.

That's the simple answer. I only ask the question to those who may think that people were immortal before the fall.

It is written in God's Word that there was no death before the fall. That ALL was very good aka perfect. There was no "mortality".

What does the "fall" mean, specifically?

 

[Job 33:6]

It is written in God's Word that there was no death before the fall. That ALL was very good aka perfect. There was no "mortality".

What does the "fall" mean, specifically?

Spiritual or supernatural death, like that defeated by Christ and that which "reigned until Moses". Not earthly physical death like that which we still experience today. When Paul said that he died from sin, He didn't mean a physical earthly death, otherwise he wouldn't have been able to write the book of Romans.

The scripture says what it says. The tree of Life granted eternal life to mortals. And when God removed Adam and Eve from the garden, God guarded the tree of life to prevent Adam from eating it, and thus Adam would age and die because he had been removed from the tree.

 

[brinny]

Spiritual or supernatural death, like that defeated by Christ and that which "reigned until Moses". Not earthly physical death like that which we still experience today. When Paul said that he died from sin, He didn't mean a physical earthly death, otherwise he wouldn't have been able to write the book of Romans.

The scripture says what it says. The tree of Life granted eternal life to mortals. And when God removed Adam and Eve from the garden, God guarded the tree of life to prevent Adam from eating it, and thus Adam would age and die because he had been removed from the tree.

Was decay declared "good" by God.

Is "decay" the antithesis to "life"?

Where is it written that God created man to "die"?

What does it mean, that man will return to the dust from whence he came?

Why did God say that?

Was that God's intention at creation?

 

[Job 33:6]

Was decay declared "good" by God.

Is "decay" the antithesis to "life"?

Where is it written that God created man to "die"?

What does it mean, that man will return to the dust from whence he came?

Why did God say that?

Was that God's intention at creation?

Good was never perfect. Satan was slithering around deceiving Adam and Eve, yet it was very good. But not perfect.

And dust from the ground is that which is absent of the spirit of God. God's saying, you are separated from Me, therefore you will return to that which you came.

Genesis 3 Bible Commentary - John Calvin

Commentary by John Calvin:
Truly the first man would have passed to a better life, had he remained upright; but there would have been no separation of the soul from the body, no corruption, no kind of destruction, and, in short, no violent change.

Also noted:
all die in Adams as they shall rise again in Christ. 1 Corinthians 15:2

but of course our physical bodies decay underground so clearly it's not a physical bodily or earthly defeat of death.

And the tree was present because God intended death to exist in the beginning and for the tree of life to sustain life, as it is written. That was God's intention.

 

[brinny]

Good was never perfect. Satan was slithering around deceiving Adam and Eve, yet it was very good. But not perfect.

And dust from the ground is that which is absent of the spirit of God. God's saying, you are separated from Me, therefore you will return to that which you came.

And the tree was present because God intended death to exist in the beginning and for the tree of life to sustain life, as it is written. That was God's intention.

Where is that written?

Why did God say that man would return to the dust from whence hd came, if it was already in place that he would die aka returnto thd dust from whence he came, beford the fall.

Why did Jesus defeat death at the cross?

It is written that death is an enemy.

Is it?

 

[brinny]

On a side note, God was not speaking of Satan when He pronounced the earth and all that He created very good.

"Satan" is defined as "adversary".

When God allowed Satan to let loose all kinds of cursds and horror onto Job, was Job still a man of God? On the same vein, when God allowed Satan to wander in thd Garden of Eden and to tempt Eve, and then Adam, both man and the earth WAS very good. Satan wasn't.

Dust to man = death and decay. Physically.

It's a curse. Death is an enemy. Death = "perishing".

THIS is why Jesus the Christ came, to DEFEAT death.

 

[Job 33:6]

We can just go in order:
Here is scientifically how we know that predation occurred before God even granted life to eat meat:
A question about the Garden before the fall

Here is how we know that Paul wasn't speaking about physical death:
A question about the Garden before the fall

Here is how we know that the purpose of the tree of life was to grant eternal life to mortals, and thus mortals existed in the garden alongside the tree of life:
A question about the Garden before the fall

Here is commentary by John Calvin, who ought to be a respectable source of theology, and his commentary on how there was death before the fall, thus when Adam was cursed back to the earth, it was done so as a spiritual separation from God (back to the ground in which he came before having the spirit of life breathed into him, spirit meaning spiritual or divine or supernatural life), thought Adam was always destined to physically die (just not supernaturally) none the less:
A question about the Garden before the fall

And if the scripture and theology appears to contradict itself, and if the special revelation appears to contradict itself, then there are really two solutions. A. The book of Genesis isn't to be taken as scientifically literal (see Paul Seely's commentary on the firmament of the Westminster Theological Seminary). Or B. We can turn to general revelation (aka science) to settle the score.

 

[brinny]

We can just go in order:
Here is scientifically how we know that predation occurred before God even granted life to eat meat:
A question about the Garden before the fall

Here is how we know that Paul wasn't speaking about physical death:
A question about the Garden before the fall

Here is how we know that the purpose of the tree of life was to grant eternal life to mortals, and thus mortals existed in the garden alongside the tree of life:
A question about the Garden before the fall

Here is commentary by John Calvin, who ought to be a respectable source of theology, and his commentary on how there was death before the fall, thus when Adam was cursed back to the earth, it was done so as a spiritual separation from God (back to the ground in which he came before having the spirit of life breathed into him, spirit meaning spiritual or divine or supernatural life), thought Adam was always destined to physically die (just not supernaturally) none the less:
A question about the Garden before the fall

And if the scripture and theology appears to contradict itself, and if the special revelation appears to contradict itself, then there are really two solutions. A. The book of Genesis isn't to be taken as scientifically literal (see Paul Seely's commentary on the firmament of the Westminster Theological Seminary). Or B. We can turn to general revelation (aka science) to settle the score.

The only "Authority" is God Himself, as is written in His Word.

HE is the bottom line.

Not man.

If He is not your Authority, perhaps that should be stated in the very beginning of this thread.

 

[Job 33:6]

Here is Saint Thomas Aquinas. Who also accepted the theological position of death before the fall (at least in animals.

"SUMMA THEOLOGIAE: The mastership belonging to man in the state of innocence (Prima Pars, Q. 96)"
Reply to Objection 2. In the opinion of some, those animals which now are fierce and kill others, would, in that state, have been tame, not only in regard to man, but also in regard to other animals. But this is quite unreasonable. For the nature of animals was not changed by man's sin (he's referring to physical death as a product of predation), as if those whose nature now it is to devour the flesh of others, would then have lived on herbs, as the lion and falcon. Nor does Bede's gloss on Genesis 1:30, say that trees and herbs were given as food to all animals and birds, but to some. Thus there would have been a natural antipathy between some animals.


Theologians are coming to this conclusion based on scripture. It is God's Word. There was a tree of life in the garden that granted immortality. Paul clearly was not speaking of physical death. Man was cursed to return to the ground in separation of the "spirit" of life, spirit, spiritual, supernatural etc.

Paul said he died to sin. But he didn't physically die because he was still writing Romans.

Paul said that death reigned from Adam until Moses. Physical death didn't stop at Moses. It wasn't physical death being discussed.

But above all else, if there were any theological contradiction or dilemma or uncertainty, then the solution is either A. The verses aren't meant to be taken scientifically literal as noted by Paul Seely of the Westminster Theological Seminary or Claus Westermann OT scholarly commentary on Genesis, or the biologos foundation. Or B. If all else fails, we can use general revelation (science) as a tie breaker where special revelation is difficult to discern. And as noted above general revelation is exceedingly clear on the fact that there was death in the garden.

 

[brinny]

Here is Saint Thomas Aquinas. Who also accepted the theological position of death before the fall (at least in animals.

"SUMMA THEOLOGIAE: The mastership belonging to man in the state of innocence (Prima Pars, Q. 96)"
Reply to Objection 2. In the opinion of some, those animals which now are fierce and kill others, would, in that state, have been tame, not only in regard to man, but also in regard to other animals. But this is quite unreasonable. For the nature of animals was not changed by man's sin, as if those whose nature now it is to devour the flesh of others, would then have lived on herbs, as the lion and falcon. Nor does Bede's gloss on Genesis 1:30, say that trees and herbs were given as food to all animals and birds, but to some. Thus there would have been a natural antipathy between some animals.


Theologians are coming to this conclusion based on scripture. It is God's Word.

They are opinions and theories based on man's conclusions.

THEY are not the living God, thd Creator, yet they deem themselves "wiser" than thd Most High God, El Elyon.

Who was the very first to do so?

 

[brinny]

On a side note, Satan was/is an "expert" in twisting scripture.

It's one of his fav'rite past times. Always HAS been.

What did Jesus Himself call Satan?

 

[Job 33:6]

They are opinions and theories based on man's conclusions.

THEY are not the living God, thd Creator, yet they deem themselves "wiser" than thd Most High God, El Elyon.

Who was the very first to do so?

I happen to agree with Saint Thomas Aquinas, I think his theology accurately portrays what scripture says. I also happen to be a scientist and I am confident that my personal observations accurately affirm Saint Thomas Aquinas' theological position and interpretation of scripture. What a coincidence that science would happen to later affirm the position of a Saint.

And I suppose that's good enough for me. I am happy to see that there are Biblical scholars and theologians, Saint Thomas Aquinas, OT Biblical Scholar Claus Westermann, Paul Seely of the Westminster Theological Seminary, the biologos foundation, and more that stand behind a biblical position that death existed before the fall.

And I think this position makes a lot of sense, most specifically because God created a tree of life in the garden that granted immortality to those that ate of it. And if you didn't eat of it, you would die, as Adam did upon being removed from the garden because he himself wasn't created immortal.

One has to wonder, what purpose would the tree of life have, that is different from any other tree, aside from the purpose that scripture says that it has, if not to grant immortal life to mortals? This is what the scripture says. And that's that.

 

[brinny]

I happen to agree with Saint Thomas Aquinas, I think his theology accurately portrays what scripture says. I also happen to be a scientist and I am confident that my personal observations accurately affirm Saint Thomas Aquinas' theological position and interpretation of scripture. What a coincidence that science would happen to later affirm the position of a Saint.

And I suppose that's good enough for me. I am happy to see that there are Biblical scholars and theologians, Saint Thomas Aquinas, OT Biblical Scholar Claus Westermann, Paul Seely of the Westminster Theological Seminary, the biologos foundation, and more that stand behind a biblical position that death existed before the fall.

If you are convinced that this is true, and that you had come to your own conclusion based on man's opinions/theories, why did you start the thread, and not say right off the bat what you believe, and that those who believe what is written in God's Word need not reply?

This was misleading.

The bottom line is that what is written in God's Word needs your approval whether to take it seriously, is that right?

 

[brinny]

By the way, Satan is a "biblical scholar". He knows the Bible through and through, inside, outside, backwards, and forwards.

So are the demons.

 

[Job 33:6]

Another additional concept to understand is that when God created the heavens and the Earth, God then subsequently brings order to that which was formless and void. God separates light and darkness, He separates water from water, he gathers the waters below to form dry land. God establishes an order in an otherwise chaotic world.

So there is earth (or otherwise translated as a region of dry land in which people lived) then on earth there is Eden, then within Eden there is the garden of Eden, then within the Garden there is a the tree of life and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. And this dome/firmament holds back chaos from above, and the land is a barrier to chaos from below. And eventually Adam is thrown out of the garden, essentially into the chaos. The flood story also plays on this same concept where chaos is basically reintroduced to God's orderly creation as water passes through the windows of the firmament and through the earthly barriers which God had created to hold back the chaos.

And so when Adam and Eve sin and are kicked out of the garden, they're then removed from the orderly, into the world of desolation, thorns, thistles and corruption.

In this view, it's not so much that death didn't exist prior to the fall, rather the tree of life inside this garden and under this firmament, was a place of sustained order. Hence why God blocks Adam from returning to the tree of life with use of a flaming sword, lest he eat of the tree and live forever. He's been kicked out of God's firmament, and left out, separated from God in this chaotic formless and void place. Kicked out of God's house essentially. And Jesus will one day return to bring us back into His house to sit at his table as his heirs.

Theologically it just makes too much sense that death would exist prior to the fall. In some manner. And theologians throughout history have supported this position. It's not that bad things, void and desert never existed before the fall. Rather God simply held them back as He did with the waters above the firmament.

God intended for people to be fruitful and to multiply and fill the land. To make earth as it is in heaven. So God is commissioning us to bring order to the void. Though something went disastrously wrong when Adam allowed that disorder to take hold of his heart while inside the garden. So God kicked him out of the garden.

Then of course Adam and Eve have children and Cain is further exiled from Eden, hence why Cain becomes fearful for his life. Because he knows that death and chaos awaits him.

Genesis 2:8 and God planted the garden within Eden. Not out in the void and disorderly, but within the space in which He established order, inside Eden. And there He put the Man whom He had formed. So God brought Adam out of the chaos and death and destruction and brought Him into the Garden by the tree of life where He might be able to sustain his mortal body.

Then when God kicks Adam out, God says that to dust Adam shall return. No longer protected but pushed out into the realm of unprotected disorder, where death exists and had always existed from the beginning.

The scripture affirms it, it's theologically sound, and the science affirms it too. All indications suggest that physical death existed before the fall.

 

[brinny]

Another additional concept to understand is that when God created the heavens and the Earth, God then subsequently brings order to that which was formless and void. God separates light and darkness, He separates water from water, he gathers the waters below to form dry land. God establishes an order in an otherwise chaotic world.

So there is earth (or otherwise translated as a region of dry land in which people lived) then on earth there is Eden, then within Eden there is the garden of Eden, then within the Garden there is a the tree of life and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. And this dome/firmament holds back chaos from above, and the land is a barrier to chaos from below. And eventually Adam is thrown out of the garden, essentially into the chaos. The flood story also plays on this same concept where chaos is basically reintroduced to God's orderly creation as water passes through the windows of the firmament and through the earthly barriers which God had created to hold back the chaos.

And so when Adam and Eve sin and are kicked out of the garden, they're then removed from the orderly, into the world of desolation, thorns, thistles and corruption.

In this view, it's not so much that death didn't exist prior to the fall, rather the tree of life inside this garden and under this firmament, was a place of sustained order. Hence why God blocks Adam from returning to the tree of life with use of a flaming sword, lest he eat of the tree and live forever. He's been kicked out of God's firmament, and left out, separated from God in this chaotic formless and void place. Kicked out of God's house essentially. And Jesus will one day return to bring us back into His house to sit at his table as his heirs.

Theologically it just makes too much sense that death would exist prior to the fall. In some manner. And theologians throughout history have supported this position. It's not that bad things, void and desert never existed before the fall. Rather God simply held them back as He did with the waters above the firmament.

God intended for people to be fruitful and to multiply and fill the land. To make earth as it is in heaven. So God is commissioning us to bring order to the void. Though something went disastrously wrong when Adam allowed that disorder to take hold of his heart while inside the garden. So God kicked him out.

Where is that written in God's Word?

You are presenting opinions/theories based on what man, a created, flawed, and finite creature, with an aversion to God and His Word, and based on man's inclination to "fix" God's Word.

This is "spinning stories". It's been going on since Satan began "spinning stories", along with his deceptions, and anything he could to detract from God and His Word.

After all, he's doing what he's been doing from the beginning. That's why Jesus Himself called him the father of lies and a murderer from the beginning.

Wisdom is needed and discernment, and as it is written, that the beginning of wisdom is the fear of the Lord, in Proverbs 9:10

There is no fear of the Lord if we are going to "fix" what a holy and sovereign God says in His Word.

That is pride. The very thing that was Lucifer's (aka Satan) downfall.

It's a stumbling block and an onerous sin, in which we place God "below" us, cause after all, Who does He think He is, GOD?

He's not infallible, right?

 

[Job 33:6]

I'll quote Genesis through and through to demonstrate that I'm not spinning the story, but rather simply describing what it says.

Another additional concept to understand is that when God created the heavens and the Earth Genesis 1:1, God then subsequently brings order to that which was formless and void Genesis 1:2. God separates light and darkness Genesis 1:4, He separates water from water Genesis 1:6, he gathers the waters below to form dry land Genesis 1:9. God establishes an order in an otherwise chaotic world. (All of the above)

So there is earth (or otherwise translated as a region of dry land in which people lived) then on earth there is Eden, then within Eden there is the garden of Eden, then within the Garden there is a the tree of life and the tree of knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 2:8-9). And God creates a dome/firmament in the beginning over the dry land, and this dome/firmament holds back chaos from above, and the land is a barrier to chaos from below, chaos being in the form of the flood waters of Noah. (Genesis 1:7-9). And eventually Adam is thrown out of the garden, essentially into the chaos (Genesis 3:23-24). The flood story also plays on this same concept where chaos is basically reintroduced to God's orderly creation as water passes through the windows of the firmament and through the earthly barriers which God had created to hold back the chaos (Genesis 7:11).

And so when Adam and Eve sin and are kicked out of the garden (Genesis 3:23-24), they're then removed from the orderly, into the world of desolation, thorns, thistles and corruption.

And thorns and thistles shall sprout for you, and you shall eat the plants of the field. By the sweat of your brow you shall eat bread, until your return to the ground. For from it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return.”
Genesis 3:18‭-‬19


In this view, it's not so much that death didn't exist prior to the fall, rather the tree of life inside this garden and under this firmament, was a place of sustained order. Hence why God blocks Adam from returning to the tree of life with use of a flaming sword, lest he eat of the tree and live forever (Genesis 3:22-24). He's been kicked out of God's firmament, and left out, separated from God in this chaotic formless and void place. Kicked out of God's house essentially. And Jesus will one day return to bring us back into His house to sit at his table as his heirs.

Theologically it just makes too much sense that death would exist prior to the fall. In some manner. And theologians throughout history have supported this position. It's not that bad things, void and desert never existed before the fall. Rather God simply held them back as He did with the waters above the firmament.

God intended for people to be fruitful and to multiply and fill the land. To make earth as it is in heaven. So God is commissioning us to bring order to the void (Genesis 1:28). Though something went disastrously wrong when Adam allowed that disorder to take hold of his heart while inside the garden (Genesis 3:6). So God kicked him out of the garden (Genesis 3:14).

Then of course Adam and Eve have children and Cain is further exiled from Eden, hence why Cain becomes fearful for his life. Because he knows that death and chaos awaits him (Genesis 4:12-14). Who was Cain afraid of that would kill him if Adam and Eve and their direct children were the only people on earth? The answer is that Cain feared human beings beyond Eden in the dark and desolate void. He's saying that it's dangerous out there, please don't exile me from Eden.

Genesis 2:8 and God planted the garden within Eden. Not out in the void and disorderly, but within the space in which He established order, inside Eden. And there He put the Man whom He had formed. So Adam was made outside of Eden, then put into Eden (Genesis 2:8), hence why God says that to dust Adam shall return (to dust outside of the sustained Eden and into the spiritless, broken void). So God brought Adam out of the chaos and death and destruction and brought Him into the Garden by the tree of life where He might be able to sustain his mortal body. Adam sinned, then got kicked out back into the land of thorns and thistles.

Then when God kicks Adam out, God says that to dust Adam shall return. No longer protected with the tree of life, but pushed out into the realm of unprotected disorder, where death exists and had always existed from the beginning. Genesis 3:19.

And remember, the tree of life according to scripture grants eternal life. If death didn't exist, it's hard to imagine why God would even have such a tree. So when God stops Adam from eating of the tree of life, it means certain death for Adam, just as God promised. Not because God made Adam mortal, but because Adam was always mortal, and was simply sustained by the tree. Adam put his trust in the tree of humanly knowledge of good and evil rather than putting his trust in God's tree of eternal life. So God kicked him out of the garden, put a flaming sword up to guard the tree, and Adam was then destined to certainly die, just as God told him he would if he ate of the wrong tree.

And this is what Genesis says. It's a story about putting trust in human knowledge over God's wisdom, a fall In brokenness, then Jesus returns to redeem us and to bring us back to a new garden of Eden.

The scripture affirms it, it's theologically sound, and the science affirms it too. All indications suggest that physical death existed before the fall. Saint Thomas Aquinas, an army of theologians and scientists affirm it. The scripture appears to say it, and that's good enough for me. At the very least I've taken science, theology and scripture and they all align under this worldview. So, can't blame a guy for "running with it".

The extended version:

 

[Sheila Davis]

I Just had a quick question about the Garden of Eden before the fall.

What would happen if a brachiosaurus accidentally stepped on a beetle before the fall?

The beetle would be crushed and no longer have life. Man the only one of God's earthly creations that immortality, all other earthly creations died. The Tree of Life wasn't given to the animals, or the insects, or the fish - it was given to man - not only was it for instant healing - it gave immortality according to Genesis 3:22.
The voting poll should have had another selection "none of the above."

 

[Sheila Davis]

I voted death. I see no reason for physical death not to take place before the fall. Adam and Eve suffered a spiritual death. No where in Genisis does it say they would physically live forever. Or am I missing something?

GENESIS 3:22 - God put them out of the garden so that they wouldn't eat "again" from the Tree of Life and live forever. I use the word "again" because God told them that they could eat of every tree except the Tree of Knowledge. The Tree of Life was in the center of the garden.