A question about the Garden before the fall

[J_B_]

We may never know why God would have created a tree of life if there was no death ...

Good point: Why would God create a Tree of Life if there was no death?

 

[brinny]

Good point: Why would God create a Tree of Life if there was no death?

Satan, and the ensuing curse.

Do you think Satan's ploys and his high treason "surprised" God?

Does ANYTHING have the capability of "surprising" God?

This would be an excellent Bible study, don't you agree?

 

[J_B_]

Satan, and the ensuing curse.

Do you think Satan's ploys and his high treason "surprised" God?

Does ANYTHING have the capability of "surprising" God?

This would be an excellent Bible study, don't you agree?

It would be a good Bible study. I don't think the Fall surprised God, but neither do I think it's what he wanted.

 

[brinny]

It would be a good Bible study. I don't think the Fall surprised God, but neither do I think it's what he wanted.

According to His Word, that's quite an understatement. So much so, that His holy wrath was incurred, and He pronounced a curse. It is written that God abhors/hates sin. It was so abhorrent to Him that He took drastic measures, and did what He said would happen way back in Genesis, and as written in John 3:16.

 

[power1]

I Just had a quick question about the Garden of Eden before the fall.

What would happen if a brachiosaurus accidentally stepped on a beetle before the fall?

I am not sure that all living things had eternal life. It could be that only certain kinds of creatures had souls as some might call it. We do see certain animals mentioned in the future prophesies of the bible. Jesus is followed by an army on horses, for example. Lions and wolves lay with baby sheep is another example. So I wonder if bugs, and some plants and maybe other (probably little) creatures had an existence that did not involve never dying? After all, the fossil record starts off with the smaller creatures being in it, meaning they died first. But since we don't really know how it worked at the time, I guess no one should be dogmatic about it.

 

[Platte]

I Just had a quick question about the Garden of Eden before the fall.

What would happen if a brachiosaurus accidentally stepped on a beetle before the fall?

The beetle would of course die. Adam’s punishment for sin was that he would surely die. Adam knew what death was and because of his sin death was assured for him and everyone else. Had Adam not sinned he could have lived forever.

my point is death was not certain before Adam sinned - it was possible just not certain. He “could” have lived forever. If he was the beetle and getting crushed then he would have died too.

 

[Job 33:6]

The beetle would of course die. Adam’s punishment for sin was that he would surely die. Adam knew what death was and because of his sin death was assured for him and everyone else. Had Adam not sinned he could have lived forever.

my point is death was not certain before Adam sinned - it was possible just not certain. He “could” have lived forever. If he was the beetle and getting crushed then he would have died too.

What scripture are you using to justify this idea?

 

[Platte]

What scripture are you using to justify this idea?

Interesting that we need Scripture to back up the concept that a person could die. A common sense idea that requires no thought or delusion. Probably why there are so many turned off of Christianity. Genesis 2:7 tells us we live by breathing of course the concept of how we stay alive. We are flesh (Genesis 6:3). Of course the Bible never says a person could not die as a matter of fact God had it necessary to provided Adam with the Tree of Life (Genesis 2:9) confirms that Adam could die. Adam also needed to eat (Genesis 2:16) - he was a person just like you and I. If Adam doesn’t eat food guess what happens? Genesis 2:17 God tells Adam that if he eats from the Tree Of Knowledge he would “surely” die. Something that didn’t have to happen to Adam at the time. Eating from the Tree of Life could keep him alive forever. Assuming he eats from the tree and eats enough of other food to keep him alive. But of course Adam did eat from the wrong tree and that assured him of death. He would now “surely” die. How did God ensure that? Simply. By preventing Adam from eating from the Tree of Life. Genesis 3:24. There is nothing I’m saying that should be controversial. This is what the Bible is saying and is nothing supernatural of strange about what I’m saying. Common sense and what would be expected. Don’t push people away from the Bible by making up concepts that people can’t believe and don’t believe. Silly doctrines that come from Satan and push people away from God and just don’t make sense. No wonder so many people question their belief in God

 

[Job 33:6]

Interesting that we need Scripture to back up the concept that a person could die. A common sense idea that requires no thought or delusion. Probably why there are so many turned off of Christianity. Genesis 2:7 tells us we live by breathing of course the concept of how we stay alive. We are flesh (Genesis 6:3). Of course the Bible never says a person could not die as a matter of fact God had it necessary to provided Adam with the Tree of Life (Genesis 2:9) confirms that Adam could die. Adam also needed to eat (Genesis 2:16) - he was a person just like you and I. If Adam doesn’t eat food guess what happens? Genesis 2:17 God tells Adam that if he eats from the Tree Of Knowledge he would “surely” die. Something that didn’t have to happen to Adam at the time. Eating from the Tree of Life could keep him alive forever. Assuming he eats from the tree and eats enough of other food to keep him alive. But of course Adam did eat from the wrong tree and that assured him of death. He would now “surely” die. How did God ensure that? Simply. By preventing Adam from eating from the Tree of Life. Genesis 3:24. There is nothing I’m saying that should be controversial. This is what the Bible is saying and is nothing supernatural of strange about what I’m saying. Common sense and what would be expected. Don’t push people away from the Bible by making up concepts that people can’t believe and don’t believe. Silly doctrines that come from Satan and push people away from God and just don’t make sense. No wonder so many people question their belief in God

Well ideally we want scripture to guide us and to be an integral aspect of our understanding of God. So it's fair to ask for scriptural justification.

I'm just going to add a concept I recognized just recently to this.

One idea I've heard is that animals only ate vegetables in the garden. Genesis 1:29.

Then after the flood, God allowed meat for food. Genesis 9:3.

But what's interesting is that predation is agreed upon by all to have occurred prior to God approving all meat for food.

So I tend to ask the question, what is the purpose of God allowing us to eat vegetables, if life just went ahead and ate meat anyway?

Which is to say that if God did not approve the eating of meat until after the flood was over, then why is there evidence of dinosaur predation buried in rocks deposited by the flood (such as dinosaur predator teeth stuck in the bones of prey dinosaurs buried underground).

 

[brinny]

The beetle would of course die. Adam’s punishment for sin was that he would surely die. Adam knew what death was and because of his sin death was assured for him and everyone else. Had Adam not sinned he could have lived forever.

my point is death was not certain before Adam sinned - it was possible just not certain. He “could” have lived forever. If he was the beetle and getting crushed then he would have died too.

Death is a consequence of the curse, along with decay, sickness, and returning to the dust from whence we came.

 

[Job 33:6]

Death is a consequence of the curse, along with decay, sickness, and returning to the dust from whence we came.

Why do you think God created a tree of life which grants immortality, if all life was already immortal anyway?

 

[Platte]

Death is a consequence of the curse, along with decay, sickness, and returning to the dust from whence we came.

Certain death was the consequence of sin

 

[brinny]

Why do you think God created a tree of life which grants immortality, if all life was already immortal anyway?

Do you think that Satan and his plan to bring the downfall of man was a "surprise" to God?

 

[brinny]

Certain death was the consequence of sin

Exactly.

 

[Job 33:6]

Do you think that Satan and his plan to bring the downfall of man was a "surprise" to God?

I'd imagine God would foresee the fall. How does this answer my question?

I would think that the tree of life which grants immortality existed because death also existed. Therefore giving the tree purpose.

 

[Platte]

then why is there evidence of dinosaur predation buried in rocks deposited by the flood (such as dinosaur predator teeth stuck in the bones of prey dinosaurs buried underground).

Id like to see the evidence of that.

 

[Job 33:6]

Id like to see the evidence of that.

Direct evidence for predation on trilobites in the Cambrian - PubMed

The gut is filled with fragments of the eodiscoid trilobite, Pagetia. The well-developed digestive glands and the fragmentary trilobite remains suggest (i) that the arthropod was a durophagous, possibly selective predator, and (ii) that small trilobites such as eodiscoids were a major food source in Cambrian marine ecosystems.

Physical evidence of predatory behavior in Tyrannosaurus rex

"Here we report definitive evidence of predation by T. rex: a tooth crown embedded in a hadrosaurid caudal centrum, surrounded by healed bone growth. This indicates that the prey escaped and lived for some time after the injury, providing direct evidence of predatory behavior by T. rex."

(PDF) Skin pathology in the Cretaceous: Evidence for probable failed predation in a dinosaur

Examination of preserved skin from a duckbill dinosaur revealed disruption of the normal scale pattern and replacement by granulation tissue. Wrinkles radiating outward from the scar document wound contraction similar to that seen in modern injuries. This is the first unequivocal report of dinosaur tissue response to dermal pathology and evidences behavior – escape from a predator.





YECs know this, this is why they accept the idea that predation occurred before the flood (which is surprising to me because it seems to contradict their idea that God had approved consumption of plants and therefore that is all that animals ate). As a geologist, I would simply conclude that death occurred going back deep in time.

Half eaten trilobites have been observed in the digestive tracks of predators going back to the Cambrian. That's why anomalocaris was considered an Apex predator with it's hard jaws. Reptiles tend to lose a lot of teeth, so it is of no surprise to find some stuck in the bones of prey, lost during fights. Scars on fossil prey have also been observed due to fights.

But if meat was approved once the flood was over, and animals were eating meat before the flood (else how would they be buried?) then there appears to be another theological issue at play. I was watching a video review on ken hams ark encounter when I realized that God's approval of meat was after the flood and not directly after the fall, and I had to do a double take.

So we end up with predators eating meat before the flood, and after the flood. But while on Noah's ark, what did Noah feed the meat eaters? Well, AiG proposes that meat eaters simply survived off of plants despite them having digestive systems today that can't digest plants.

So one has to wonder, if predators could digest plants on the ark, but couldn't digest plants today, could this be an example of hyper-evolution? Well we can't use the "E" word so I guess it would just be rapid baraminological speciation (aka made-up pseudoscientific jargon), speciation thousands of times faster than any form of speciation ever observed in the fossil record. Hand waves* hand waves* stop asking questions!*

I'll let Erika tell the tale:

 

[brinny]

I'd imagine God would foresee the fall. How does this answer my question?

I would think that the tree of life which grants immortality existed because death also existed. Therefore giving the tree purpose.

Yet it is written that with the curse came death, to not only man, but all of the creatures, and the earth itself.

When God created the earth and all in it He called it very good.

Is death "good"?

If so, why did Jesus Christ abolish it? Why would God send His only begotten Son here, for the purpose of dying, and counteracting death, if death was ever a "good" thing?

Would God call "death" a "good" thing, ever?

 

[Job 33:6]

Yet it is written that with the curse came death, to not only man, but all of the creatures, and the earth itself.

When God created the earth and all in it He called it very good.

Is death "good"?

If so, why did Jesus Christ abolish it? Why would God send His only begotten Son here, for the purpose of dying, and counteracting death, if death was ever a "good" thing?

Would God call "death" a "good" thing, ever?

Well here's the catch, on earth, we still physically die. So clearly Jesus did not conquer this form of physical death, but rather it's a form of spiritual or supernatural death that was conquered. Hence why Paul states that death reigned from Adam until Moses Romans 5:14. Physical death did not stop at moses. Paul was never talking about physical death. Paul also also says that he died to sin Romans 7:9-10. But of course Paul couldn't have physically died or he wouldn't have been able to write the book of Romans.

The point being that this is a supernatural death, not a physical earthly death that is being described in scripture.

Why would God create a tree of life that grants immortality if animals were created immortal to begin with?

 

[brinny]

Well here's the catch, on earth, we still physically die. So clearly Jesus did not conquer this form of physical death, but rather it's a form of spiritual or supernatural death that was conquered. Hence why Paul states that death reigned from Adam until Moses Romans 5:14. Physical death did not stop at moses. Paul was never talking about physical death. Paul also also says that he died to sin Romans 7:9-10. But of course Paul couldn't have physically died or he wouldn't have been able to write the book of Romans.

Why would God create a tree of life that grants immortality if animals were created immortal to begin with?

We could ask the same about God creating Lucifer aka Satan. Why would God create a creature that attempt to overthrow Him, kill Him, and usurp His Throne, if He knew this would happen?

Did God make a mistake?

Does God ever make a mistake?

Did God embrace death and call it "good"?

If so, what was the purpose of it, and why was the death of His only begotten Son needed?

You DO realize that the entire earth is groaning in anticipation of when God makes "all things new", right?

The bottom line, is this:

Is the living God the God of life or death?

What does He say He is?