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A question about Job.

Setyoufree

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He became humble. He no longer ascribed goodness and merit to himself."

When Paul realized that righteousness is not only one's outward performance, but righteousness is also the thoughts and intents of the mind and heart, he saw himself as a sinner. No longer did he ascribed goodness and merit to himself!

Any man, Job...you...the Pope, anyone, who talks of his righteousness isn't a person justified by faith. He is a man content with his own righteousness. Hence a man justified by faith will never brag of his righteousness. He will be humble before others and God. If not, he will be humbled, like Job.
 
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Setyoufree

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Doing good deeds outwardly while inwardly doing them for "the praise of men" and/or bragging or any self-centered reason isn't doing good.

The Pharisees were experts in the law. They were highly educated and degreed men. But Christ says, "For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven." [Matt 5:20]

Where did they fail? What was the flaw in their outward performance?

Jesus explains:

"Everything they do is done for men to see" (Matt 23:5)

If you read on you'll find out that they coveted "the praise of men". They loved to "brag" of their holiness.

While they claimed to be very jealous for the honor of the law, self-glory was the real object which they sought; and Christ would make it manifest to them that the lover of self is a transgressor of the law.

The principles cherished by the Pharisees are such as are characteristic of humanity in all ages. The spirit of Pharisaism is the spirit of human nature.
 
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DarylFawcett

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My understanding is that Job's three friends falsely accused Job that his sins caused all this to happen to him, however, we know from the first couple of chapers of Job, that this wasn't true.

Adam Clarke's Commentary says the following about Job 35:1 below:

Job 35:2

My righteousness is more than God’s? - This would indeed be a blasphemous saying; but Job never said so, neither directly nor constructively: it would be much better to translate the words צדקי מאל tsidki meel, I am righteous Before God. And Job’s meaning most certainly was, “Whatever I am in your sight, I know that in the sight of God I am a righteous man;” and he had a right to assume this character, because God himself had given it to him.
Adam Clarke's Commentary says the following about Job 35:16 below, especially what I bolded and underlined:
Job 35:16

Therefore doth Job open his mouth in vain -
God will execute vengeance when it may best serve the ends of his justice, providence, and mercy. The delay of judgment is not proof that it shall not be executed; nor is the deferring of mercy any proof that God has forgotten to be gracious.
He multiplieth words without knowledge - However this may apply to Job, it most certainly applies very strongly and generally to the words, not only of Job’s three friends, but to those also of Elihu himself. The contest is frequently a strife of words.

Job 35:1 (Elihu to Job) Do you think it is just when you say, "I am righteous before God"? (HCS) Within the context of Job chapter 35, Elihu says:

"So Job opens his mouth with empty talk; without knowledge he multiplies words." (Job 35:16)

In other words Job is self-deceived in his claims to righteousness.

The question is does God agree with what Elihu stated? Remember Elihu claims to speak in God's behalf (see Job 36:1).

Job 38:1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the storm. He said: 2 "Who is this that darkens my counsel with words without knowledge?"

This is the first time God speaks directly to Job. So when did God counsel Job?

Answer: Through Elihu!

God is in agreement with Elihu! Both of them tell Job that his claims to righteousness are words spoken without knowledge. What is Job's reply?

"Then Job answered the Lord and said: 4 "Behold, I am vile; What shall I answer You? I lay my hand over my mouth.

What a difference we see in Job now. Before this Job claimed to be righteous before God. He claimed to be without sin. He claimed to be blameless.

But now we see a changed man. We see a humble Job who realizes that his righteousness was really self-righteousness and he realized that in comparison to God's righteousness he was actually "vile".

Not only did Job have a change of heart but he also repented of his self-righteousness:

Job 42:1 Then Job answered the Lord and said: .... 3 You asked, 'Who is this who hides counsel without knowledge?' Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand, Things too wonderful for me, which I did not know.... 6 Therefore I abhor myself, And repent in dust and ashes."
 
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Setyoufree

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He multiplieth words without knowledge -

However this may apply to Job

Adam Clarke says "May apply to Job"? Sounds like he is soft peddling...

...it (He multiplieth words without knowledge) most certainly applies very strongly and generally to the words, not only of Job’s three friends, but to those also of Elihu himself.

:doh::doh::doh:

Well, if Elihu is guilty of "words without knowledge" then why do God and Elihu agree?

Job 38:1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the storm. He said: 2 "Who is this that darkens my counsel with words without knowledge?"

This is the first time God speaks directly to Job. So when did God counsel Job?

Answer: Through Elihu!

God is in agreement with Elihu! Both of them tell Job that his claims to righteousness are words spoken without knowledge. What is Job's reply?

"Then Job answered the Lord and said: 4 "Behold, I am vile; What shall I answer You? I lay my hand over my mouth."
 
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Setyoufree

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...it (He multiplieth words without knowledge) most certainly applies very strongly and generally to the words, not only of Job’s three friends, but to those also of Elihu himself.

Again, Job repented. Job said, "Behold, I am vile; What shall I answer You? I lay my hand over my mouth."

Job repented of his self-righteousness.

Job 42:7 After the LORD had said these things to Job, he said to Eliphaz the Temanite, "I am angry with you and your two friends....9 So Eliphaz the Temanite, Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite (Job's 3 friends) did what the LORD told them...."

They repented too through the sacrificial system.

What about Elihu????

Did he repent?

No.

Was Elihu called out by God and admonished?

No.

This continual badgering of Elihu is to me attacking the messenger. God sent Elihu before...just as God send prophets and messengers to Israel.

What did the Jews do?

Matt 23:34 "Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town."

When Elihu is attacked folks are attacking God's messenger. It's really no different then what the Jews did to God's prophets.
 
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brinny

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Setyoufree

God told Satan that Job was a holy man who turned away from sin.

The three 'friends' said that Job was wrong and it was his sin that brought about his trials.

God rebuked these men and said that Job was right in what he said.

Case proven.

8 And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

22 In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly.

3 And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

We have here three witnesses that Job was an upright righteous man: Job himself, God, and the writer of the book of Job. Three witnesses that refute you. Three against one, and one of them is God almighty. God tells Satan that there is no cause to judge or punish Job in other words, he is innocent. The book goes on to thresh out the concept of why the innocent suffer.

Setyoufree, by taking the side of the accusers, you are siding with Satan in your accusations against Job. I don't see where that leaves the discussion as there is no meeting point.



Sisters

I have found this site yesterday;

Ichthus : Job

and have listened to a few of the lectures and although I take a different track, I think the teaching is very good and helpful to our conversation which I hope we can continue.

You, my sister, have BLESSED me. This study is the most bless-ed teaching on Job i've EVER heard...it's bringing tears to my eyes.....
 
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Seeking Him

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Setyoufree

God told Satan that Job was a holy man who turned away from sin.

The three 'friends' said that Job was wrong and it was his sin that brought about his trials.

God rebuked these men and said that Job was right in what he said.

Case proven.

8 And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

22 In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly.

3 And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

We have here three witnesses that Job was an upright righteous man: Job himself, God, and the writer of the book of Job. Three witnesses that refute you. Three against one, and one of them is God almighty. God tells Satan that there is no cause to judge or punish Job in other words, he is innocent. The book goes on to thresh out the concept of why the innocent suffer.

Setyoufree, by taking the side of the accusers, you are siding with Satan in your accusations against Job. I don't see where that leaves the discussion as there is no meeting point.



Sisters

I have found this site yesterday;

Ichthus : Job

and have listened to a few of the lectures and although I take a different track, I think the teaching is very good and helpful to our conversation which I hope we can continue.
Thank you sis, will take a look at these. :)
 
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bmjackson

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Was Elihu a 'messenger sent by God' as Setyoufree claims?

Let's take a look at him. He is portrayed as 'an angry young man' (Roger Forster) and here we can see the qualities of an angry young man. As a side note, Roger Forster says that an angry young man is easy for God to deal with whereas an angry old man is not.

An angry young man, is impulsive:

33.19 My heart is indeed like wine that has no vent;
like new wineskins, it is ready to burst.
20 I must speak, so that I may find relief;
I must open my lips and answer.

A man of God is not ruled by impulsive emotions, he is led by the Spirit of God and is slow to anger and slow to speak.

Angry young men are also arrogant:

33.31 Pay heed, Job, listen to me;
be silent, and I will speak.
32 If you have anything to say, answer me;
speak, for I desire to justify you.
33 If not, listen to me;
be silent, and I will teach you wisdom.”

Is this the way that a prophet of God and a man who is sent to deal with a highly traumatised desperately sick man? Is this the approach one should use in trying to reach someone in the throes of extreme suffering? How would you respond to a young know-it-all like that? Would you open up your heart to be ministered to by him? No, me neither. He has already switched me off by not showing some respect for my years.

Elihu, granted, is an improvement on the three 'theologians' (Forster). Indeed Elihu is angry with them for the pat answers they gave Job. They have not answered his case at all. But is Elihu correct in condeming Job for declaring his innocence and questioning why God has deserted him? Here is what the esteemed Dr Adam Clarke has to say:

34.Verse 5 Job hath said, I am righteous - Job had certainly said the words attributed to him by Elihu, particularly in Job 27:2, etc., but it was in vindication of his aspersed character that he had asserted his own righteousness, and in a different sense to that in which Elihu appears to take it up. He asserted that he was righteous quoad the charges his friends had brought against him. And he never intimated that he had at all times a pure heart, and had never transgressed the laws of his Maker. It is true also that he said, God hath taken away my judgment; but he most obviously does not mean to charge God with injustice, but to show that he had dealt with him in a way wholly mysterious, and not according to the ordinary dispensations of his providence; and that he did not interpose in his behalf, while his friends were overwhelming him with obloquy and reproach.

Job's issue with God was His apparent desertion, the same issue that Jesus had when dying on the cross. Job's sin if it is a sin was also committed by Christ in saying 'My God, My God Why?'

35.Verse 2 My righteousness is more than God‘s? - This would indeed be a blasphemous saying; but Job never said so, neither directly nor constructively: it would be much better to translate the words צדקי מאל (tsidki meel), I am righteous Before God. And Job‘s meaning most certainly was, “Whatever I am in your sight, I know that in the sight of God I am a righteous man;” and he had a right to assume this character, because God himself had given it to him.

So here we have the angry young man misquoting Job that is to say, he gets it wrong in order to back up his beliefs. Now where do we see that constantly in the present times? And again:

Verse 3 What advantage will it be unto thee? - As if he had said to God, “My righteousness cannot profit thee, nor do I find that it is of any benefit to myself.” Or perhaps Elihu makes here a general assertion, which he afterwards endeavors to exemplify: Thou hast been reasoning how it may profit thee, and thou hast said, “What profit shall I have in righteousness more than in sin?”

And so now we get the answer that the 'theologians failed to give from the know-it-all Elihu:

37.Verse 23 Touching the Almighty, we cannot find him out - This is a very abrupt exclamation, and highly descriptive of the state of mind in which Elihu was at this time; full of solemnity, wonder, and astonishment, at his own contemplation of this “great First Cause, least understood.” The Almighty! we cannot find him out.

Excellent in power and in judgment - We must not pretend to comprehend his being, the mode of his existence, the wisdom of his counsels, nor the mysteries of his conduct.

He will not afflict - לא יענה (la yeanneh), he will not Answer. He will give account of none of his matters to us. We cannot comprehend his motives, nor the ends he has in view.

The answer that has got the church into trouble and especially these post world war days when man is seeking to understand why the innocent suffer. The answer from the church is 'it's a mystery'.

That is not good enough as Forster says in his excellent talks on Job. He goes on to explain the cosmic war where Satan brings the charge against God claiming that the law of love that rules the universe does not work and it should be run by the rule of might. Righteous men like Job come into the crossfire and are the vindicators of God, being those who worship Him out of altruism, whether they receive anything from Him or not. Satan cannot understand this and attacks those in attempts to prove his case with those who love God unconditionally.

This truth has been a great blessing to me personally during my own trial.

Any other understanding of the book of Job is superficial and barely skims the surface at all.
 
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bmjackson

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37.23

I have had more thoughts about the things that Elihu said that are just plain wrong.

God does reveal His secret council to those who love Him. This is what Elihu did not understand about Job's relationship with God. Elihu is speaking of a distant God, but Job had been so close to Him, as a lover of his soul, and so close that Job would even try to prevent even his children from offending the God he loved by sacrificing for them. A man who is this close can be far more intimate in the things he says to God and to question His workings. Read the Psalm's of David, another man close to God. Elihu had no understanding of this and therefore thought it offensive.
 
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brinny

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This study, and the hitting on those details that are not usually spoken of by many teachers and preachers, and sooo misunderstood, are edifying here. When i was listening to Roger Forster he mentioned that many haven't studied the book of Job to any great extent and therefore miss the key points of what God emphasizes about Job and thus are completely off-track about who Job was in God's eyes and thus everything else that they speak of is askew because they haven't latched onto what God Himself emphasizes. It's as if they don't "see" it.

Thank you for your posts Brenda. It's very edifying.
 
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Seeking Him

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37.23

I have had more thoughts about the things that Elihu said that are just plain wrong.

God does reveal His secret council to those who love Him. This is what Elihu did not understand about Job's relationship with God. Elihu is speaking of a distant God, but Job had been so close to Him, as a lover of his soul, and so close that Job would even try to prevent even his children from offending the God he loved by sacrificing for them. A man who is this close can be far more intimate in the things he says to God and to question His workings. Read the Psalm's of David, another man close to God. Elihu had no understanding of this and therefore thought it offensive.
Yes, David was close to God also. His honesty with God is amazing. He felt comfortable telling God about his emotions, how he really felt. Feelings we often feel are taboo to talk to God about. Anger, revenge, deep depression.
Then you read about things that God did later in time, for other people "for David's sake." God must have really loved David.
I was suprised when I read about the time when God was going to destroy the Israelites, and Moses said, Lord if you do that what will Egypt and the nations say about you. Remember you delivered us out of Egypt. They'll say now you destroyed those you delivered.
These comments from Moses seem like something you'd say to an intimate friend you frlt comfortable around, but not to God.
 
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Setyoufree

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He is portrayed as 'an angry young man' (Roger Forster)

But that's Roger's spin, not the Bible.

A man of God is not ruled by impulsive emotions, he is led by the Spirit of God and is slow to anger and slow to speak.

It is sad that I have defend Elihu, a man God never admonished.

BTW, have you ever read the great Apostle Paul's angry replies? Let me help:

Acts 23:3 "God will strike you (the high priest Ananias), you whitewashed wall! You sit there to judge me according to the law, yet you yourself violate the law by commanding that I be struck!"

Gal 2:11 When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong.

Gal 5:12 "As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!" [Emasculation is the removal of the penis and the testicles]

Phil 3:2 "Watch out for those dogs, those men who do evil, those mutilators of the flesh."

Seems he wasn't a happy camper, but according to your way of thinking Paul then wasn't a real apostle. Yes?

Is this the way that a prophet of God and a man who is sent to deal with a highly traumatized desperately sick man?

But God did the same or did you forget?

Job 38:1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the storm. He said: 2 "Who is this that darkens my counsel with words without knowledge? 3 Brace yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer me.4 "Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation? Tell me, if you understand.5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! :doh:
 
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Setyoufree

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I have had more thoughts about the things that Elihu said that are just plain wrong.

How dare you attack Elihu when God never, ever rebuked him!

If Elihu did wrong surely God would have rebuked him like he did Job and his three friends, but I can't find one word from God against Elihu's counsel.
 
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Setyoufree

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BTW, have you ever read the great Apostle Paul's angry replies? Let me help:

Acts 23:3 "God will strike you (the high priest Ananias), you whitewashed wall! You sit there to judge me according to the law, yet you yourself violate the law by commanding that I be struck!"

Gal 2:11 When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong.

Gal 5:12 "As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!" [Emasculation is the removal of the penis and the testicles]

Phil 3:2 "Watch out for those dogs, those men who do evil, those mutilators of the flesh."

Seems he wasn't a happy camper, but according to your way of thinking Paul then wasn't a real apostle. Yes? :doh:

And what about Jesus?

Matt 23:27 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs,http://www.biblestudytools.com/matthew/23.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-26 which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean. 28 In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness. 29 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophetshttp://www.biblestudytools.com/matthew/23.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-27 and decorate the graves of the righteous. 30 And you say, 'If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.' 31 So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets.http://www.biblestudytools.com/matthew/23.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-28 32 Fill up, then, the measurehttp://www.biblestudytools.com/matthew/23.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-29 of the sin of your forefathers!http://www.biblestudytools.com/matthew/23.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-30 33 "You snakes! You brood of vipers!http://www.biblestudytools.com/matthew/23.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-31 How will you escape being condemned to hell?http://www.biblestudytools.com/matthew/23.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-32 34 Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify;http://www.biblestudytools.com/matthew/23.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-33 others you will flog in your synagogueshttp://www.biblestudytools.com/matthew/23.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-34 and pursue from town to town.http://www.biblestudytools.com/matthew/23.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-35
 
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brinny

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Originally Posted by bmjackson View Post
37.23

I have had more thoughts about the things that Elihu said that are just plain wrong.

God does reveal His secret council to those who love Him. This is what Elihu did not understand about Job's relationship with God. Elihu is speaking of a distant God, but Job had been so close to Him, as a lover of his soul, and so close that Job would even try to prevent even his children from offending the God he loved by sacrificing for them. A man who is this close can be far more intimate in the things he says to God and to question His workings. Read the Psalm's of David, another man close to God. Elihu had no understanding of this and therefore thought it offensive.

Yes, David was close to God also. His honesty with God is amazing. He felt comfortable telling God about his emotions, how he really felt. Feelings we often feel are taboo to talk to God about. Anger, revenge, deep depression.
Then you read about things that God did later in time, for other people "for David's sake." God must have really loved David.
I was suprised when I read about the time when God was going to destroy the Israelites, and Moses said, Lord if you do that what will Egypt and the nations say about you. Remember you delivered us out of Egypt. They'll say now you destroyed those you delivered.
These comments from Moses seem like something you'd say to an intimate friend you frlt comfortable around, but not to God.

Yes, David shared the very bearings of his soul with God, ALL of it....perhaps this is part of the reason that God called David the "apple of His eye"....and yes, about Moses, how he spoke very candidly with God....and Abraham did as well, when he spoke to God about Sodom when God said He was going to destroy it, and Abraham was speaking on behalf of his nephew Lot who lived there.....

It reminds me of that verse where God invites us to come together and "reason" with Him....and it seems these men of God did.....and possibly Job was acutely suffering from the loss of this "reasoning" with God because he had always had an open, on-going dialog with God, but at this particular time through these series of circumstances, God was silent...this, i suspect is what grieved Job the most as he had no way of knowing it was only temporary....yet in some of what he says, we catch a glimpse of how bonded his heart was with God anyway when he says 'though He slay me, yet will I trust Him'......
 
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bmjackson

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Yes, David was close to God also. His honesty with God is amazing. He felt comfortable telling God about his emotions, how he really felt. Feelings we often feel are taboo to talk to God about. Anger, revenge, deep depression.
Then you read about things that God did later in time, for other people "for David's sake." God must have really loved David.
I was suprised when I read about the time when God was going to destroy the Israelites, and Moses said, Lord if you do that what will Egypt and the nations say about you. Remember you delivered us out of Egypt. They'll say now you destroyed those you delivered.
These comments from Moses seem like something you'd say to an intimate friend you frlt comfortable around, but not to God.

Yes indeed Seeking Him and those who do not know God at this intimate level, where God reveals Himself much more fully to them, because they have earned His trust by opening themselves up to Him, might easily think that they have no right to speak to the Creator as they do. Often our anger towards God is hidden in our hearts because we dare not admit it even to ourselves, or because we want to hide from Him, and prefer the world to intimacy with God, but it is only when we admit it that God can deal with it and He did so with Job when He appeared in the whirlwind.

He was able to speak to Job as He did, 'Come on now, pull yourself together and see how much exactly you do not know' because His appearance always brings healing (in His wings) and down we go in the dust in repentance.

The four voices had not brought healing to Job, they had instead brought injury with their cutting and wounding remarks because they were not spiritual and had no idea what was really going on with Job and the heavenly battle being fought over him and others who walk with Him.
 
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bmjackson

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Yes, David shared the very bearings of his soul with God, ALL of it....perhaps this is part of the reason that God called David the "apple of His eye"....and yes, about Moses, how he spoke very candidly with God....and Abraham did as well, when he spoke to God about Sodom when God said He was going to destroy it, and Abraham was speaking on behalf of his nephew Lot who lived there.....

It reminds me of that verse where God invites us to come together and "reason" with Him....and it seems these men of God did.....and possibly Job was acutely suffering from the loss of this "reasoning" with God because he had always had an open, on-going dialog with God, but at this particular time through these series of circumstances, God was silent...this, i suspect is what grieved Job the most as he had no way of knowing it was only temporary....yet in some of what he says, we catch a glimpse of how bonded his heart was with God anyway when he says 'though He slay me, yet will I trust Him'......

I agree and that is a good insight brinny that Job did not know it was temporary. His whole reason for living had disappeared and God would not give him an answer to why it had happened. On top of this Satan had removed everything else out of his life whereby he may have found some comfort, and instead he was cut up into pieces by the voices who placed the blame on him when it was unjustified.

This study is such a blessing to me and especially because of being able to share it with others. It has brought a ray of light into darkness for me as I see those voices have been tormenting me with 'what ifs' and 'you should have's'.

Because of this study and what R. Forster said, I have been able to separate all of that into 'the darkness' and allow the beam of light to be my new dwelling place in order to restore me to my relationship with God that I had lost.

Thank you so much dear sisters.
 
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