A question about Job.

[Setyoufree]

This gospel is the one that says we cannot stop sinning in this life.

Okay, then prove it.....Sell all your goods and give the money to the poor. Then walk like Christ in His denial of self. That's loving your neighbor as you naturally love yourself.

This does not apply to Job. His fault was that of expecting the presence of God to be with him but when it left him he was plunged into deep despair,.

So God just up and left Job for nothing? What about the promise, "I will never leave you or forsake you"?

God loved Israel, yet because of Israel's self-righteousness God had to abandon her.

God loved Job, but Job really didn't need God's righteousness because he was righteous, that is, in his own eyes. So God partially abandoned Job.

 

[Setyoufree]

God loved Job, but Job really didn't need God's righteousness because he was righteous, that is, in his own eyes. So God partially abandoned Job.

Job 32:1 Then these three men ceased answering Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes. 2 But the anger of Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite, of the family of Ram burned ; against Job his anger burned because he (Job) justified himself before God. 3 And his anger burned against his three friends because they had found no answer, and yet had condemned Job. [NAS]

 

[bmjackson]

Okay, then prove it.....Sell all your goods and give the money to the poor. Then walk like Christ in His denial of self. That's loving your neighbor as you naturally love yourself.



So God just up and left Job for nothing? What about the promise, "I will never leave you or forsake you"?

God loved Israel, yet because of Israel's self-righteousness God had to abandon her.

God loved Job, but Job really didn't need God's righteousness because he was righteous, that is, in his own eyes. So God partially abandoned Job.

Well I am already one of the poor.

God removed the sense of His presence He did not actually leave Job. It was Job's impression and that of many prophets, for a period of time that He left. Those who do not understand the ways of God, cannot understand this, just like Job's 'friends' and make accusations that the 'deserted' ones have brought it on themselves through sin but God refutes that idea.

There is a genuine abandonment by God when one turns away from Him through sin. But that is not the case in this book. Those who are spiritually blind confuse the two reasons for the experience.

Job was righteous in his own eyes because he actually was and God confirmed it to Satan.

Elihu, and the other voices, being spiritually blind, were incensed by a man claiming to be holy. It's the same throughout time. Men full of sin will reject the idea that God can make a man holy. Job was telling the truth, not bragging. God had made him holy and it was not sin that had caused God to depart. He was just and did not understand why God had left him. That is the error of Job. He questioned why God had left him and it was perfectly reasonable for him to do so. Later, he learned his lesson and knew that he had been through a necessary trial and that he had to learn to let God come and go whenever He desired. Holiness does not depend on having the presence of God nor does ones advanced spiritual state assure it. That is for the earlier stages. The mature state is where God will frequently not be sensed by His servant who is utterly devoted to Him and may at times be so berefit during times of extreme suffering that they may cry out like Jesus 'My God my God'.

 

[brinny]

Here are some scriptures of comfort.

O thou afflicted, city, tossed with tempest and not comforted, Behold I build your jewels with fair colors. Sapphires for a foundation. Rubies for towers, walls and doors with turquoise and other beautiful jewels.

And your children will be taught by the Lord.

God is building something beautiful in us as we pass through tempest and affliction. We are being taught, while we may not realise it. A school like Elijah or Joseph or Job went through.

There are those words of grace, as Paul spoke of, that build us up and keep us established, which will build you up and remind you of your inheritance. The Greek word for "build" there "oikodomeo", "to build a house." Words of Spirit , as our heavenly house is being built.

Nothing can destroy this building, no fire, no tornado, no earthquake. It's built on Jesus, the builder and maker.

very encouraging and edifying, thank you.

 

[brinny]

Well I am already one of the poor.

God removed the sense of His presence He did not actually leave Job. It was Job's impression and that of many prophets, for a period of time that He left. Those who do not understand the ways of God, cannot understand this, just like Job's 'friends' and make accusations that the 'deserted' ones have brought it on themselves through sin but God refutes that idea.

There is a genuine abandonment by God when one turns away from Him through sin. But that is not the case in this book. Those who are spiritually blind confuse the two reasons for the experience.

Job was righteous in his own eyes because he actually was and God confirmed it to Satan.

Elihu, and the other voices, being spiritually blind, were incensed by a man claiming to be holy. It's the same throughout time. Men full of sin will reject the idea that God can make a man holy. Job was telling the truth, not bragging. God had made him holy and it was not sin that had caused God to depart. He was just and did not understand why God had left him. That is the error of Job. He questioned why God had left him and it was perfectly reasonable for him to do so. Later, he learned his lesson and knew that he had been through a necessary trial and that he had to learn to let God come and go whenever He desired. Holiness does not depend on having the presence of God nor does ones advanced spiritual state assure it. That is for the earlier stages. The mature state is where God will frequently not be sensed by His servant who is utterly devoted to Him and may at times be so berefit during times of extreme suffering that they may cry out like Jesus 'My God my God'.

Edifying point, thank you for your clarity on what can be very misunderstood circumstances......Jesus' Words, especially, are very timely here, and somehow reassuring... Thank you.

 

[Setyoufree]

Well I am already one of the poor.

Apparently you have a computer and a roof over your head. Christ had nothing:

Luke 9:57 As they were walking along the road, a man said to him, "I will follow you wherever you go." 58 Jesus replied, "Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head."

Christ had nothing because Christ lived not, thought not for Himself. There was never one ounce of self-seeking in His life. He totally denied self and lived only for those around Him. That's agape.

God removed the sense of His presence He did not actually leave Job.

That's double talk....God retreated or Satan wouldn't have touched Job.

Job was righteous in his own eyes because he actually was and God confirmed it to Satan.

No, that's not true. You are ignoring key verses to state this. I've been over this time and time again, but you aren't interested in looking into the context of my quotes. Why?

Elihu, and the other voices, being spiritually blind, were incensed by a man claiming to be holy.

Again, untrue. I've noticed when you state things you give no Scripture to support your argument. Therefore its speculation on your part.

 

[Setyoufree]

You are ignoring key verses to state this. I've been over this time and time again, but you aren't interested in looking into the context of my quotes. Why?

Job 35:1 (Elihu to Job) Do you think it is just when you say, "I am righteous before God"? (HCS) Within the context of Job chapter 35, Elihu says:

"So Job opens his mouth with empty talk; without knowledge he multiplies words." (Job 35:16)

In other words Job is self-deceived in his claims to righteousness.

The question is does God agree with what Elihu stated? Remember Elihu claims to speak in God's behalf (see Job 36:1).

Job 38:1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the storm. He said: 2 "Who is this that darkens my counsel with words without knowledge?"

This is the first time God speaks directly to Job. So when did God counsel Job?

Answer: Through Elihu!

God is in agreement with Elihu! Both of them tell Job that his claims to righteousness are words spoken without knowledge. What is Job's reply?

"Then Job answered the Lord and said: 4 "Behold, I am vile; What shall I answer You? I lay my hand over my mouth.

What a difference we see in Job now. Before this Job claimed to be righteous before God. He claimed to be without sin. He claimed to be blameless.

But now we see a changed man. We see a humble Job who realizes that his righteousness was really self-righteousness and he realized that in comparison to God's righteousness he was actually "vile".

Not only did Job have a change of heart but he also repented of his self-righteousness:

Job 42:1 Then Job answered the Lord and said: .... 3 You asked, 'Who is this who hides counsel without knowledge?' Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand, Things too wonderful for me, which I did not know.... 6 Therefore I abhor myself, And repent in dust and ashes."

 

[Setyoufree]

Job 35:1 (Elihu to Job) Do you think it is just when you say, "I am righteous before God"? (HCS)

Within the context of Job chapter 35, Elihu says: "So Job opens his mouth with empty talk; without knowledge he multiplies words." (Job 35:16)

Did Job claim to be righteous? Yes:

Let God weigh me (Job) in honest scales and he will know that I am blameless" [Job:31:6]

The BBE translation says: "Let me (Job) be measured in upright scales, and let God see my righteousness."

This claim to righteousness, by Job, is what Elihu calls "empty talk" or words spoken without knowledge.

The question is does God agree with Elihu that Job's claims to righteousness are "words (spoken) without knowledge"?

What does the Scripture state?

Job 38:1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the storm. He said: 2 "Who is this that darkens my counsel with words without knowledge?"

So yes, God is stating the same thing that Elihu previously stated to Job, i.e., Job you don't know what you are stating because you are genuinely ignorant.

Job 42:1 Then Job answered the Lord and said: .... 3 You asked, 'Who is this who hides counsel without knowledge?'

Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand, Things too wonderful for me, which I did not know.... 6 Therefore I abhor myself, And repent in dust and ashes."

Job answers the Lord's question. Job agrees that his claims to righteousness are words spoken in ignorance and he repents of his self-righteous attitude.

 

[Seeking Him]

Isaiah, right?

Yes, Isaiah 54:11,12. What struck me too was that God said "I will teach your children. " How God teaches us the pure doctrines of truth and these give us such jewels.

Someone, I think it was Matthew Henry,( thats going back along while. I love his commentary.) But he referred to Paul in 1 Cor.3. Paul laid a foundation, but was concerned that whoever was building on it would build with gold, silver, and precious stones. He said, the people being built on were temples of the living God, and were sacred. And that God would be very, very mad if these sacred temples were hurt in any way. Paul uses much harsher words.

So it makes me think how important we are to God and his building plan thrives through our walk with him. How great to think, we too are sacred,temples. Whether suffering or joy or growth, as Job learned, Job 28, he talks about the gold, silver, sapphire, onyx ,coral. But do people know where to find wisdom? Job asks. The fear of the Lord is true wisdom he says.

 

[brinny]

Yes, Isaiah 54:11,12. What struck me too was that God said "I will teach your children. How God teaches us the pure doctrines of truth and these give us such jewels.

Someone, I think it was Matthew Henry,( thats going back along while. I love his commentary.) But he referred to Paul in 1 Cor.3. Paul laid a foundation, but was concerned that whoever was building on it would build with gold, silver, and precious stones. He said, the people being built on were temples of the living God, and were sacred. And that God would be very, very mad if these sacred temples were hurt in any way. Paul uses much harsher words.

So it makes me think how important we are to God and his building plan thrives through our walk with him. Whether suffering or joy or growth, as Job learned, Job 28, he talks about the gold, silver, sapphire, onyx ,coral. But do people know where to find wisdom? Job asks. The fear of the Lord is true wisdom he says.

Amen, thank you for this edifying post....and yes, what Job says...and it's in Proverbs several times. Thank you

 

[Seeking Him]

Well I am already one of the poor.

God removed the sense of His presence He did not actually leave Job. It was Job's impression and that of many prophets, for a period of time that He left. Those who do not understand the ways of God, cannot understand this, just like Job's 'friends' and make accusations that the 'deserted' ones have brought it on themselves through sin but God refutes that idea.

There is a genuine abandonment by God when one turns away from Him through sin. But that is not the case in this book. Those who are spiritually blind confuse the two reasons for the experience.

Job was righteous in his own eyes because he actually was and God confirmed it to Satan.

Elihu, and the other voices, being spiritually blind, were incensed by a man claiming to be holy. It's the same throughout time. Men full of sin will reject the idea that God can make a man holy. Job was telling the truth, not bragging. God had made him holy and it was not sin that had caused God to depart. He was just and did not understand why God had left him. That is the error of Job. He questioned why God had left him and it was perfectly reasonable for him to do so. Later, he learned his lesson and knew that he had been through a necessary trial and that he had to learn to let God come and go whenever He desired. Holiness does not depend on having the presence of God nor does ones advanced spiritual state assure it. That is for the earlier stages. The mature state is where God will frequently not be sensed by His servant who is utterly devoted to Him and may at times be so berefit during times of extreme suffering that they may cry out like Jesus 'My God my God'.

Yes, God had made Job holy. And people reject the idea that God can make a man holy, as you said. We born again believers do too at times. It's so easy to fall into false piety. What a gift he's given us. That Jesus became a man and by his body we've been made holy. Also the scripture, in the body of his flesh through death to make you holy. Maybe Job was lookiing ahead, didn't James call him a prophet.

 

[Seeking Him]

Brinny, thank you for sharing that song on Psalm 13. What a great, encouraging song. It keeps coming back to me.

 

[brinny]

YOu are soooo welcome...it's been a theme song of mine.....(((hug)))

 

[Setyoufree]

Yes, God had made Job holy. And people reject the idea that God can make a man holy, as you said.

No proof that God made Job holy. Speculation!

Also, has God made you holy? Are you without sin? Do you think you can stand before God and His Holy law and justify yourself as did Job? I think not!

 

[Setyoufree]

....Jesus became a man and by his body we've been made holy. Also the scripture, in the body of his flesh through death to make you holy. Maybe Job was lookiing ahead, didn't James call him a prophet.

Not in you...so that you can brag, but "in Christ Jesus". Maybe you should review the thread called "What does it mean to be in Christ?"

 

[Setyoufree]

Job agrees that his claims to righteousness are words spoken in ignorance and he repents of his self-righteous attitude.

Rom 10:2 For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God (as was Job), but their zeal is not based on knowledge.

Verse 3 answers why their zeal was not based on knowledge:

3 Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness.

That reads a lot like Job. Job clearly had a zeal for God, but like the Jews it wasn't based on knowledge for he too "sought to establish" his own righteousness.

But unlike the Jews, Job repented.

Repentance from self-righteousness is extremely hard. I ought to know because I too was once like Job.

 

[bmjackson]

Setyoufree

God told Satan that Job was a holy man who turned away from sin.

The three 'friends' said that Job was wrong and it was his sin that brought about his trials.

God rebuked these men and said that Job was right in what he said.

Case proven.

8 And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

22 In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly.

3 And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

We have here three witnesses that Job was an upright righteous man: Job himself, God, and the writer of the book of Job. Three witnesses that refute you. Three against one, and one of them is God almighty. God tells Satan that there is no cause to judge or punish Job in other words, he is innocent. The book goes on to thresh out the concept of why the innocent suffer.

Setyoufree, by taking the side of the accusers, you are siding with Satan in your accusations against Job. I don't see where that leaves the discussion as there is no meeting point.



Sisters

I have found this site yesterday;

Ichthus : Job

and have listened to a few of the lectures and although I take a different track, I think the teaching is very good and helpful to our conversation which I hope we can continue.

 

[brinny]

Thank you. I am going to the site now.

 

[Setyoufree]

God told Satan that Job was a holy man who turned away from sin.

Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

Yes, that's how God presented Job's righteousness to Satan. This does not mean that God viewed Job as perfect. That's where you err.

The three 'friends' said that Job was wrong and it was his sin that brought about his trials.

You mean "sins" (plural)?

Job's three friends were charging Job with sins and that God was tormenting Job because of these sins.

So these 3 men had two problems:

1] They were insisting that God was tormenting Job because of his sins.

That's why God says to Job's 3 friends, "You have not spoken of Me what is right." In other words God doesn't torment us because of our sins. God is a God of love. Torment is of the devil.

2] They condemned Job without evidence.

Elihu brings this out in Job 32:3 "And [Elihu's] anger burned against his three friends because they had found no answer, and yet had condemned Job."

So "yes" these 3 men were wrong. Outwardly they couldn't prove Job had sinned or was sinning, yet they condemned him anyway.

God rebuked these men and said that Job was right in what he said.

Yes, because if you read (and that's a big "if") you will find out that Job had repented and had a change of heart. Before that Job justified his righteousness before God. Elihu also speaks out against this in Job chapter 32.

Let's review it:

verse 1: Then these three men ceased answering Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes. 2 But the anger of Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite, of the family of Ram burned ; against Job his anger burned because he justified himself before God. 3 And his anger burned against his three friends because they had found no answer, and yet had condemned Job.

Setyoufree, by taking the side of the accusers, you are siding with Satan in your accusations against Job.

No, I disagree with Job's three friends - his accusers. Job's problem wasn't his lack of righteousness. Outwardly Job was a righteous man; he looked holy and he himself exclaimed that He was holy & blameless.

But here's the problem: Sin is a deceiver. I'm talking of the sinful nature. Our nature is deceitful and it can prompt us to do good deeds outwardly for selfish motives inwardly. Doing good deeds outwardly while inwardly doing them for "the praise of men" and/or bragging or any self-centered reason isn't doing good.

Let me say it another way: Keeping the law outwardly in order to earn heaven isn't keeping the law - it is keeping sin.

If I do anything good outwardly, but for a selfish purpose inwardly I'm not doing good, I'm doing evil. I am polluting the good deed with sin.

For example, let's say there's an old windowed lady next door and her yard needs mowing. Is it a good deed if I mow her lawn free of charge?

Outwardly "yes", but inwardly it depends on my motive.

God doesn't go by our outward performance, He goes by our motives. You can do good things outwardly, but inwardly you can be serving sin. Hence God looks at the heart, not the deeds. He looks at what prompts those deeds.

Jesus says, "Without Me you can do nothing". Does He mean it or not? If He means it that means you can do nothing good without Him because without Christ all you do will be motivated by selfishness.

When Job realized this truth he viewed himself as "vile" and "repented" of his own, self-righteousness.

 

[Setyoufree]

God doesn't go by our outward performance, He goes by our motives. You can do good things outwardly, but inwardly you can be serving sin. Hence God looks at the heart, not the deeds. He looks at what prompts those deeds.

When Job realized this truth he viewed himself as "vile" and "repented" of his own, self-righteousness.

Paul says that “as touching the law”—as far as outward acts were concerned—he was “blameless”, but when the spiritual character of the law was discerned, when he looked into the holy mirror, he saw himself a sinner. Judged by a human standard, he had abstained from sin, but when he looked into the depths of God’s law, and saw himself as God saw him, he bowed in humiliation, and confessed his guilt. Sin then appeared in its true hideousness, and his self-esteem was gone. He became humble. He no longer ascribed goodness and merit to himself."