A question about Job.

[GenemZ]

i didn't see your entire answer....

Although it is a serious challenge and traumatic what happened to you, it was not a series of "dominoes" falling, one after the other until you were covered with atrocious sores that oozed and there were worms in them, after having lost his children tragically and everything he knew, as his wife turned on him, while 3, then 4 friends barraged and harassed him while he sat there in indescribable misery. This is only the tip of the ice berg. This continued relentlessly.

Could you put yourself in Job's place?

What is it about Job? That, you wish to prove? That Job becoming self righteous was understandable under those circumstances? What are you trying to say!? SAY IT! (please)

You here lashing out against teachers who are not even here, and are taking out your anger against them, with some here.

 

[brinny]

God loves Job.

Yes.

 

[brinny]

Originally Posted by brinny
i didn't see your entire answer....

Although it is a serious challenge and traumatic what happened to you, it was not a series of "dominoes" falling, one after the other until you were covered with atrocious sores that oozed and there were worms in them, after having lost his children tragically and everything he knew, as his wife turned on him, while 3, then 4 friends barraged and harassed him while he sat there in indescribable misery. This is only the tip of the ice berg. This continued relentlessly.

Could you put yourself in Job's place?

What is it about Job? That, you wish to prove? That Job becoming self righteous was understandable under those circumstances? What are you trying to say!? SAY IT! (please)

You here lashing out against teachers who are not even here, and are taking out your anger against them, with some here.

No anger here, and i'm not angry with McGee or the others that spoke of Job, and were missing the point, to say the least. I don't agree with them, and it boggles me mind that they could so have misconstrued the entire point of why God allowed what all happened to Job.

In the last chapter of Job, God says this about Job:

"And it was so, that after the LORD had spoken these words unto Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath. Therefore take unto you now seven bullocks and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you: for him will I accept: lest I deal with you after your folly, in that ye have not spoken of me the thing which is right, like my servant Job." ~Job 42:7-8

 

[GenemZ]

This is going in circles and is without a sense of direction because someone here does not want it to have direction.


I will leave you to Job.

 

[brinny]

As you wish.

Peace.

 

[brinny]

...cuz i missed the beginning of the study...

He's covering Job 1:6- Job 2:3

Right from the gitgo, McGee almost begrudgingly admits that Job is sorta a righteous man. Whoop, there it be......there's some sorta' "bias" here on McGee's part against Job. Not sure why it's there, cuz the Bible is quite clear on Job's standing with God, regardless of McGee's "issues" with Job.

Here's the problem from the gitgo. God didn't say that about Job. God came right out and said that Job was a righteous man. That's where the study goes amiss, right there.

Play Job 1:6—2:3 - Thru the Bible with Dr. J. Vernon McGee

 

[brinny]

...yeah, it's loooong, 6 hours or so, but well worth it.....this guy thoroughly studied the Book of Job, and understood Job's standing before God, and that God MEANT it when He described Job as "righteous" and that THAT is why He allowed ALL that Satan threw at Job, non-stop, and with a frenzy. In addition, just as Job was near death's door, along came his "friends, who were used of Satan to REALLY jab at Job, in essence, "torturing" and "accusing" him, just as Satan used Job's wife to really sucker-punch him quite literally, emotionally and spiritually.

The Book of Job is well worth studying, but thoroughly, and not with pre-conceived notions. What's key here, is to REMEMBER and KEEP IN MIND God's own description of Job in the very beginning of the book, and not get distracted and off-course like Job's "friends" who were so easily used of Satan and that is because (my own thoughts on this) that their hearts were not right from the gitgo. My thoughts on this is that they were NEVER "friends" with Job from the gitgo, and had possibly been "jealous" of Job.

This study is long, so maybe should be delved into in parts.

The Book Of Job Explained - YouTube

 

[SolomonVII]

As far as I can see, the story of Job centres on Job being righteous. There is no indication at all that Job suffered as a result of sin, or personal quirks, or a thousand different other things.

God said he was a righteous man; Satan said that he bet that he could change that, and God said fine.
He was tested, and found to be righteous. He was righteous in his own eyes. He was righteous in God's eyes. In fact, in the eyes of the one who would have known him the best, his wife, it can be inferred that she believed that he was righteous, and it was God that was not righteous "Curse God and die", therefore.
There are many still that walk away from reading Job with that impression. The whole idea of allowing every kind of evil befall Job, not as a result of justice, but in order to win a bet with the Satan, many find troublesome.

Otherwise, it could always be said that he suffered on account of his sins, and that is what would have been the case if Job was in any way not righteous.

As it was he was not unrighteous; he was simply wrong. The worldview that he shared with his wife, and his friends, and the whole of ancient society, was wrong. People are not born into poverty and suffering due to the fact that they deserve to be there. People are not born into the lap of luxury on account of their perfection and their merit to have all that.

Like Abraham taking Isaac up the mountain to slaughter the son of promise, it doesn't make sense to have faith in God and believe that God is good and author of justice, and yet would order the world in the way that he does.
And yet, even as it does not make sense, Abraham and now Job placed their trust in God anyway, that he is just and all knowing and it is human limitation that is deficient for understanding of the profound mystery of suffering.

We put dogs down when they reach a level of suffering where it makes sense. It is unfair that we allow them to go on in pain when all rational hope of something better is gone. People today make the same rational choice about their own lives, where it makes better sense to say enough and just go die, as Job's wife advocated. That is to say that it really is God's fault that we suffer, because creation itself is imperfect, and death is the corrective.
It takes absolute faith to carry on through the intense pain and suffering, without seeing any reason for it, except to believe that God does not make mistakes, and that a human life is worth much much more than the pain involved in carrying on.

 

[Rhamiel]

the moral i got from this is
"who are we to question God?"
and the answer is
no one has the right to question God
not even a rightous man like Job

 

[brinny]

As far as I can see, the story of Job centres on Job being righteous. There is no indication at all that Job suffered as a result of sin, or personal quirks, or a thousand different other things.

God said he was a righteous man; Satan said that he bet that he could change that, and God said fine.
He was tested, and found to be righteous. He was righteous in his own eyes. He was righteous in God's eyes. In fact, in the eyes of the one who would have known him the best, his wife, it can be inferred that she believed that he was righteous, and it was God that was not righteous "Curse God and die", therefore.
There are many still that walk away from reading Job with that impression. The whole idea of allowing every kind of evil befall Job, not as a result of justice, but in order to win a bet with the Satan, many find troublesome.

Otherwise, it could always be said that he suffered on account of his sins, and that is what would have been the case if Job was in any way not righteous.

As it was he was not unrighteous; he was simply wrong. The worldview that he shared with his wife, and his friends, and the whole of ancient society, was wrong. People are not born into poverty and suffering due to the fact that they deserve to be there. People are not born into the lap of luxury on account of their perfection and their merit to have all that.

Like Abraham taking Isaac up the mountain to slaughter the son of promise, it doesn't make sense to have faith in God and believe that God is good and author of justice, and yet would order the world in the way that he does.
And yet, even as it does not make sense, Abraham and now Job placed their trust in God anyway, that he is just and all knowing and it is human limitation that is deficient for understanding of the profound mystery of suffering.

We put dogs down when they reach a level of suffering where it makes sense. It is unfair that we allow them to go on in pain when all rational hope of something better is gone. People today make the same rational choice about their own lives, where it makes better sense to say enough and just go die, as Job's wife advocated. That is to say that it really is God's fault that we suffer, because creation itself is imperfect, and death is the corrective.
It takes absolute faith to carry on through the intense pain and suffering, without seeing any reason for it, except to believe that God does not make mistakes, and that a human life is worth much much more than the pain involved in carrying on.

Ok, i'm with ya on this......however, i don't get from reading Job that Job saw himself as righteous, but that He knew God and he knew that he had not done any of the things his "friends" accused him of. He merely was stating facts, and knew that God wasn't "punishing" him. He was, however confused, and he WAS asking why God was allowing it. In reading Job also, Job wasn't "accusing" God, but questioning God's allowing what was happening.

I suspect that Job was not only grieving, but profoundly depressed in all possible ways, just as other men of God had, such as Elijah, etc. Job thought he was going to die and all hope appeared to be gone, in the midst of such excruciatingly inexplicable suffering, and God remaining silent, it seemed.

Jesus did something similar when He cried out:

"My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” ~Matt 27:46

 

[brinny]

the moral i got from this is
"who are we to question God?"
and the answer is
no one has the right to question God
not even a rightous man like Job

On the other hand there's always that verse that can be a stickler....the one where God says to come and let us reason together......

 

[SolomonVII]

the moral i got from this is
"who are we to question God?"
and the answer is
no one has the right to question God
not even a rightous man like Job

Personally, I think that is the wrong moral to take away from the story.
The name Israel itself means "struggles with God", and it was a total kind of wrestling match between Jacob and God where that name was given to us.

Abraham always bartered with God, and Moses flat out rejected some of the proposals God put forth to him, even when they might have favored Moses considerably.

Getting in a heated battle with God is not a bad thing. God is not bothered in the least by our hots and our colds, but only by our indifference. It is really okay to disagree. In fact, we may often even be rewarded by God after we disagree intensely, just like Job was.

 

[SolomonVII]

Ok, i'm with ya on this......however, i don't get from reading Job that Job saw himself as righteous, but that He knew God and he knew that he had not done any of the things his "friends" accused him of. He merely was stating facts, and knew that God wasn't "punishing" him. He was, however confused, and he WAS asking why God was allowing it. In reading Job also, Job wasn't "accusing" God, but questioning God's allowing what was happening.

I suspect that Job was depressed in all possible ways, just as other men of God had, such as Elijah, etc. Job thought he was going to die and all hope appeared to be gone.

No that was already posted in this thread, and it was quite specific:

Job 32:1

Then these three men ceased answering Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes.

There is a distinction I think between self-righteousness, which is based in arrogance and measuring oneself as morally superior, and the objective belief that there is no sin that you are aware of(in your own eyes) that could possibly be the reason for the punishment.

Objectively speaking, Job was righteous, and his self assessment was the correct one. Certainly he did not have the full picture, and the full picture was beyond his human mortal capability to have. His understanding of the world and God was lacking, and on that God answered him in full—not by explaining to him the actual specific reasons for his suffering, but by explaining to him that the realm that God operates goes beyond any possible purely human understanding that could exist for mortal mankind.

 

[brinny]

No that was already posted in this thread, and it was quite specific:


There is a distinction I think between self-righteousness, which is based in arrogance and measuring oneself as morally superior, and the objective belief that there is no sin that you are aware of(in your own eyes) that could possibly be the reason for the punishment.

Objectively speaking, Job was righteous, and his self assessment was the correct one. Certainly he did not have the full picture, and the full picture was beyond his human mortal capability to have. His understanding of the world and God was lacking, and on that God answered him in full—not by explaining to him the actual specific reasons for his suffering, but by explaining to him that the realm that God operates goes beyond any possible purely human understanding that could exist for mortal mankind.

THAT is what i'm getting from this...that God WAS laying it for Job that there was a BIGGER PICTURE to ALL of this and a BIGGER purpose and that in ALL of it, God being omniscient, WAS aware of ALL that had been happening to Job, and that God was and IS ABLE to cease it. He is asking if He is indeed ABLE. He was reminding Job of WHO He is.

 

[SolomonVII]

THAT is what i'm getting from this...that God WAS laying it for Job that there was a BIGGER PICTURE to ALL of this and a BIGGER purpose and that in ALL of it, God being omniscient, WAS aware of ALL that had been happening to Job, and that God was and IS ABLE to cease it. He is asking if He is indeed ABLE. He was reminding Job of WHO He is.

I think we are basically agreeing.
Just one thing (just on account of my own laziness to search on my own at the moment); is there a specific verse where God tells Job that he is able to stop all the suffering that Job is going through?

 

[brinny]

I think we are basically agreeing.
Just one thing (just on account of my own laziness to search on my own at the moment); is there a specific verse where God tells Job that he is able to stop all the suffering that Job is going through?

God reminds Job of WHO created ALL there is and that HE is in CONTROL, and NONE else. He does this as He asks Job the questions about reminds Job that only HE is God, Creator and NONE can usurp Him, no matter how baaaaad it seemed during the suffering Job endured, that God was STILL there and that God NEVER took His eyes off Job, even though Job felt that God was far from him. That's what i derive from ALL that God said to Job and the purpose in God saying it. It's almost like God is saying: Did you forget what I am capable of, my promises to you. Do I ever forget my own?

 

[brinny]

As i was listening to this study on Job and all the manner of evil Eliphaz (his "friend") was accusing Job of, this verse came to mind:

"Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!" ~Isaiah 5:20

Eliphaz, Job's "friend" had no reason whatsoever to accuse Job of such evil. He KNEW Job. Job considered him a "friend". Eliphaz was being a "false witness" and seemed to be "relishing" Job's suffering.

Chapter 4-5.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

After God restores Job, what happens to his wife and his three friends?

I assume his wife died because he re-married

and of his friends .. it was a cliffhanger ending like Jonah . it's kinda like .. they were jerks .. so nothing more will be written of them .

 

[brinny]

Originally Posted by brinny
After God restores Job, what happens to his wife and his three friends?

I assume his wife died because he re-married

and of his friends .. it was a cliffhanger ending like Jonah . it's kinda like .. they were jerks .. so nothing more will be written of them .

ROFLOLOL! Oh hep meeee....I cain't breeeeeeathe....

Would'ja mind elaborating on his wife? And i got's me own thoughts on his friends.....

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

No that was already posted in this thread, and it was quite specific:


There is a distinction I think between self-righteousness, which is based in arrogance and measuring oneself as morally superior, and the objective belief that there is no sin that you are aware of(in your own eyes) that could possibly be the reason for the punishment.

Objectively speaking, Job was righteous, and his self assessment was the correct one. Certainly he did not have the full picture, and the full picture was beyond his human mortal capability to have. His understanding of the world and God was lacking, and on that God answered him in full—not by explaining to him the actual specific reasons for his suffering, but by explaining to him that the realm that God operates goes beyond any possible purely human understanding that could exist for mortal mankind.

The book of Job also mentions "hypocrites", which Jesus used in Matthew 24 concerning the self righteous Jewish Rulers Jesus went up against.

Blue Letter Bible - Search Results for NKJV

Job 15:34
For the company of hypocrites [will be] barren,
and fire will consume the tents of bribery.
36:13
"But the hypocrites in heart store up wrath;
They do not cry for help when He binds them

Mat 23:15
`Woe to you Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!
Because ye go round the sea and the dry land to make one proselyte,
and whenever it may happen -- ye make him a son of gehenna twofold more than yourselves.
33 Serpents! brood of vipers!
how may ye escape from the judgment of the gehenna?

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary
JESUS VS THE JEWISH RULERS

While the significance of this seemingly pointless detail has been neglected by scholars throughout the centuries, you can be certain that it did not escape the notice of the Pharisees and scribes to which Yeshua was speaking. They thoroughly knew their history and were extremely proud of their heritage.

Yeshua wanted those self-righteous Pharisees to know exactly who he was referring to with this parable. This detail cements the identity of the rich man as the House of Judah, the Jews!.........


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