A question about Job.

[GenemZ]

Thank you. Where did you learn this? What i couldn't help wondering about as i read it, is, did Jesus die for Lucifer?

Jesus came as a man, and died as a man. Satan is not a man. He is a an angel. Angels are not men.

Another big difference in the fall of man, and the fall of angels. When man fell, he remained physically alive - but, became dead spiritually. In contrast to man, the angels that fell died to their ability for being physically alive, but remained spiritual. That is one reason demons seek bodies to possess.

I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. (Galatians 2:20)

​

When Jesus was crucified, our physical being was crucified with him. Its because of our sin nature (sins) that Jesus died. The sin nature resides in the flesh.

But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. (Rom 7:17-19)
​

The word 'evil' seen in the end of that passage speaks in the sense of self destructive action. Not as something done with malicious intention (evil). The ancients used the word 'evil' in various ways.


Now..

We have been crucified with Christ. For that reason our sins which come from the sin nature in our flesh can never condemn us. For, God sees our bodies as having died. Crucified with Christ.


Man rejecting God is not simply a sin. Its evil. Satan committed evil against God, not simply sin. Men who reject salvation think evil in their minds in doing so.

It says, Jesus died for our sins. He did not die for evil. Satan and his angels are evil. Jesus could not die for evil. To do so? He would have to have rejected himself in some form of sacrifice. For evil, is ultimately, always the rejection of God. Sin (defect) caused man to be cut off from God, but not because we want to be with sin. Evil wants to be with sin.

The Lord offered the fallen angels salvation (as sons) by means of them choosing to change their wrong way of thinking. Change over to what is truth. Even though they fell, they remained spiritual, even after they fell. Man is different in his make up. Man is born spiritually dead and can not see the spiritual realm without God's grace enabling man to see what is spiritual. Demons knew Jesus was the Son of God. They remained spiritual.

Repentance in salvation means to change one's thinking from what is false, to what is truth. For example.. Certain Jews were told to repent. Meaning..to stop thinking with negativity towards Jesus Christ. They were not being told to stop being sinners by means of repentance. That would be like telling someone to stop being physically alive.

For now.. The filling of the Spirit is what stops us from being manifested as sinners. Later on, our resurrection body will be minus of having any sin nature.

But, back to Satan. No need for any sacrifice. Satan only needed to repent to be restored back into God's kingdom. God caused Satan to hurt as a means to get Satan off of his self delusional cloud of self glorying, and back down to standing in reality. It was Satan's ability to produce lies that supplied him with self justifications (evil) that kept Satan from accepting God's means for restoration. Satan lied (sin) against the truth = evil.

We sin because we have a sin nature. We may even hate our sin. In contrast to sin.. Evil is a system of thinking that will rationalize sin into being something good. Evil makes wrongdoing into something to be preferred. Evil is not simply wrong action finding its impetus from impulse coming from the defect in our biological function (sin nature). Sin is impulse based. Sinners sin without justification. Evil is a means of THINKING designed to protect the sinner from having to accept what sin is in accordance with God's Word.

Evil produces a way (thought) to transform sin into something to be seen as acceptable and good. Like we see with gay marriage today. The actual promotion of gay marriage is not sin. Its evil. What they do in gay marriage, is sin. But, what one does when promoting it as a good thing, is evil, not simply sin.

Jesus could not die for evil. Jesus died for sin. He could not die for self justification of one's sin. He died for what the sin nature instinctively drives men to do.

Satan's redemption? Jesus could not die for. What Satan needed to do (while given God's allotted time to repent) was to die to his wanting to keep on creating rationales that became like a wall of denial designed to keep out the truth of the Word of God.

Sin is impulse based... be it lying, stealing, or murder, etc. Evil, on the other hand, is a deliberate internally driven thought process that invents ways to deny any wrong doing in regards to ones sin.

We can lie on impulse, out of fear. But, evil deliberates, and may even calmly come up with ways to deny there being anything wrong with sin. The Law of God was set up as the final word against evil, not simply against sin. The Law defined sin. Yet, the Law stood in opposition to evil.

Grace and peace to Brinny!

 

[GenemZ]

Today, J Vernon McGee compared Job to the Pharisee that prayed and said that he's thankful he's not as those sinners.

God chooses imperfect men to fulfill His perfect plan. When good men of God make mistakes? I see it (in part) as God's provision to have who ever wishes, to feel free to quit following His Word.. if that is the true desire.

All teachers of God fail at some points in their walk. But, you need to find out, if later on, JVM learned more and repented. That is what good men of God do. They do not hide their mistakes when they discover them. They admit to them and then present the correction.

My pastor has made some very strange mistakes over his fifty years of teaching. But I have heard him more than once tell everyone to forget what he taught a while back. That, he now has a correction to present to us. Or, he will simply teach the correction and move on. For a true pastor is leading a flock. But, though he should be more advanced than those following him, he is growing too. Growth at times is a matter of learning from one's mistakes. Paul made them. Peter made them. Moses made them. (and that's only a short list)

Its those pastors who will never admit they are wrong that one should quit on. For they will never learn from their mistakes. Therefore, they can never grow. They will remain stunted in ignorance...willful ignorance.

So, quit! Neither will you be able to grow if you place value in human loyalty above being true to God's Word. JVM was not perfect. No man of God is. Only God is perfect, and will always provide a way through for those seeking Him first and not seeking perfection in a man.

Grace and peeps to Brinny! (see!)

 

[brinny]

Jesus came as a man, and died as a man. Satan is not a man. He is a an angel. Angels are not men.

Another big difference in the fall of man, and the fall of angels. When man fell, he remained physically alive - but, became dead spiritually. In contrast to man, the angels that fell died to their ability for being physically alive, but remained spiritual. That is one reason demons seek bodies to possess.

I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. (Galatians 2:20)

​

When Jesus was crucified, our physical being was crucified with him. Its because of our sin nature (sins) that Jesus died. The sin nature resides in the flesh.

But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. (Rom 7:17-19)
​

The word 'evil' seen in the end of that passage speaks in the sense of self destructive action. Not as something done with malicious intention (evil). The ancients used the word 'evil' in various ways.


Now..

We have been crucified with Christ. For that reason our sins which come from the sin nature in our flesh can never condemn us. For, God sees our bodies as having died. Crucified with Christ.


Man rejecting God is not simply a sin. Its evil. Satan committed evil against God, not simply sin. Men who reject salvation think evil in their minds in doing so.

It says, Jesus died for our sins. He did not die for evil. Satan and his angels are evil. Jesus could not die for evil. To do so? He would have to have rejected himself in some form of sacrifice. For evil, is ultimately, always the rejection of God. Sin (defect) caused man to be cut off from God, but not because we want to be with sin. Evil wants to be with sin.

The Lord offered the fallen angels salvation (as sons) by means of them choosing to change their wrong way of thinking. Change over to what is truth. Even though they fell, they remained spiritual, even after they fell. Man is different in his make up. Man is born spiritually dead and can not see the spiritual realm without God's grace enabling man to see what is spiritual. Demons knew Jesus was the Son of God. They remained spiritual.

Repentance in salvation means to change one's thinking from what is false, to what is truth. For example.. Certain Jews were told to repent. Meaning..to stop thinking with negativity towards Jesus Christ. They were not being told to stop being sinners by means of repentance. That would be like telling someone to stop being physically alive.

For now.. The filling of the Spirit is what stops us from being manifested as sinners. Later on, our resurrection body will be minus of having any sin nature.

But, back to Satan. No need for any sacrifice. Satan only needed to repent to be restored back into God's kingdom. God caused Satan to hurt as a means to get Satan off of his self delusional cloud of self glorying, and back down to standing in reality. It was Satan's ability to produce lies that supplied him with self justifications (evil) that kept Satan from accepting God's means for restoration. Satan lied (sin) against the truth = evil.

We sin because we have a sin nature. We may even hate our sin. In contrast to sin.. Evil is a system of thinking that will rationalize sin into being something good. Evil makes wrongdoing into something to be preferred. Evil is not simply wrong action finding its impetus from impulse coming from the defect in our biological function (sin nature). Sin is impulse based. Sinners sin without justification. Evil is a means of THINKING designed to protect the sinner from having to accept what sin is in accordance with God's Word.

Evil produces a way (thought) to transform sin into something to be seen as acceptable and good. Like we see with gay marriage today. The actual promotion of gay marriage is not sin. Its evil. What they do in gay marriage, is sin. But, what one does when promoting it as a good thing, is evil, not simply sin.

Jesus could not die for evil. Jesus died for sin. He could not die for self justification of one's sin. He died for what the sin nature instinctively drives men to do.

Satan's redemption? Jesus could not die for. What Satan needed to do (while given God's allotted time to repent) was to die to his wanting to keep on creating rationales that became like a wall of denial designed to keep out the truth of the Word of God.

Sin is impulse based... be it lying, stealing, or murder, etc. Evil, on the other hand, is a deliberate internally driven thought process that invents ways to deny any wrong doing in regards to ones sin.

We can lie on impulse, out of fear. But, evil deliberates, and may even calmly come up with ways to deny there being anything wrong with sin. The Law of God was set up as the final word against evil, not simply against sin. The Law defined sin. Yet, the Law stood in opposition to evil.

Grace and peace to Brinny!

Does satan know where he's headed? Does he hate God?

 

[brinny]

Originally Posted by brinny
Today, J Vernon McGee compared Job to the Pharisee that prayed and said that he's thankful he's not as those sinners.

God chooses imperfect men to fulfill His perfect plan. When good men of God make mistakes? I see it (in part) as God's provision to have who ever wishes, to feel free to quit following His Word.. if that is the true desire.

All teachers of God fail at some points in their walk. But, you need to find out, if later on, JVM learned more and repented. That is what good men of God do. They do not hide their mistakes when they discover them. They admit to them and then present the correction.

My pastor has made some very strange mistakes over his fifty years of teaching. But I have heard him more than once tell everyone to forget what he taught a while back. That, he now has a correction to present to us. Or, he will simply teach the correction and move on. For a true pastor is leading a flock. But, though he should be more advanced than those following him, he is growing too. Growth at times is a matter of learning from one's mistakes. Paul made them. Peter made them. Moses made them. (and that's only a short list)

Its those pastors who will never admit they are wrong that one should quit on. For they will never learn from their mistakes. Therefore, they can never grow. They will remain stunted in ignorance...willful ignorance.

So, quit! Neither will you be able to grow if you place value in human loyalty above being true to God's Word. JVM was not perfect. No man of God is. Only God is perfect, and will always provide a way through for those seeking Him first and not seeking perfection in a man.

Grace and peeps to Brinny! (see!)

i found it puzzling how "off" McGee's assessment of Job was today during the study. It's like he has a vendetta against Job and accused Job of pride and thinking too highly of himself and being self-righteous. It's almost like he has a pet peeve against Job, and he reminded me of the 4 friends of Job, accusing him of all manner of things.

We covered Job 31 today. i missed the beginning of the study where God states Himself His assessment of Job, so i don't know how McGee covered what God said.

 

[GenemZ]

Does satan know where he's headed? Does he hate God?

Denial of the truth is not the same thing as knowing deep down inside that something is true. Satan must suffer from a split personality disorder as a defense mechanism. One side knows. The other, lives on as he does not.

Now..

Satan is much smarter than the average demon. Correct? Demons know where they are heading!

28When He had come to the other side, to the country of the Gergesenes, there met Him two demon-possessed men, coming out of the tombs, exceedingly fierce, so that no one could pass that way. And suddenly they cried out, saying, “What have we to do with You, Jesus, You Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?”.... (Mat 8:28-29)


​

I ask you? Did Hitler really believe he would get away with it?

Would it have mattered? It does not matter to those who have a mania for power lust. Its like heroin to an addict. Satan is addicted to seeking his own self glory. Reality does not get in his way as long as he still has time given to him.


Grace and peace for Brinny...

 

[GenemZ]

i found it puzzling how "off" McGee's assessment of Job was today during the study. It's like he has a vendetta against Job and accused Job of pride and thinking too highly of himself and being self-righteous. It's almost like he has a pet peeve against Job, and he reminded me of the 4 friends of Job, accusing him of all manner of things.

We covered Job 31 today. i missed the beginning of the study where God states Himself His assessment of Job, so i don't know how McGee covered what God said.

Could you have misheard what he said, and he was really stating that someone mistakenly could see Job in such a manner? Tell me which lesson it was, please. Look here:

http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/thru-the-bible-with-j-vernon-mcgee/listen/#seriesdatesorttabs-1

Grace and peace to Brinny...

 

[brinny]

this one:

Play Job 31:1—32:3 - Thru the Bible with Dr. J. Vernon McGee

Job never said any of what McGee is accusing him of. If Job would've gone along with what his friends accused him of, he'd have been lying. Job did not lack humility, nor did Job pat himself on the back. Job was never boasting.

 

[GenemZ]

this one:

Play Job 31:1—32:3 - Thru the Bible with Dr. J. Vernon McGee

Job never said any of what McGee is accusing him of. If Job would've gone along with what his friends accused him of, he'd have been lying. Job did not lack humility, nor did Job pat himself on the back. Job was never boasting.

Wait ..wait ...wait a second. I have not listened to it yet. My pastor taught Job from the Hebrew years ago. He showed that there was a point where Job did get self righteous. But, it was out of reaction, not the cause for his suffering. I will listen to it in a little while.

 

[GenemZ]

this one:

Play Job 31:1—32:3 - Thru the Bible with Dr. J. Vernon McGee

Job never said any of what McGee is accusing him of. If Job would've gone along with what his friends accused him of, he'd have been lying. Job did not lack humility, nor did Job pat himself on the back. Job was never boasting.

Sounds like you might have some cherished preconceived notions about Job that JVM was crushing. Well? Was JVM wrong? Look at chapter 38. Look what the Lord finally needed to tell Job!

.. Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said:

“Who is this who darkens counsel
By words without knowledge?
Now prepare yourself like a man;
I will question you, and you shall answer Me.

“Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding. (Job 38:1-4)


​

In Chapter 38, the Lord went on about His greatness. He had to put Job in his place. He not once tells Job anything good about him. Job's intense suffering brought to the surface an area of weakness and sin that Job had lying beneath the surface. In Chapter 31, Job had been expressing self evaluation by declaring his righteousness to be according to his works. Chapter 31 is about Job giving one example after another of works he approved of. And, in turn? Was expressing his own self approval! Yes!! Job was patting himself on the back!!!

Job felt that his works were proof of his justification onto righteousness. Now? Who does that sound like? That was how a pharisee would evaluate himself to be right with God.

True righteousness knows that one is only justified by God. Our works are only a result and outworking, not the cause of righteousness. And, mind you. Very religious hypocrites could have named the very same works Job did.

Our righteousness comes from God only. This righteousness is revealed through our *understanding and wisdom*... not by works. Wisdom and understanding guide us through our works when they are called for. And, works are not the cause for our righteousness. For, that matter.. understanding and wisdom came from God, not from ourselves.

In Chapter 31, Job does not once give God credit for anything. Did you take notice of that? Read it again, please.


Grace and peace to Brinny.

 

[childofdust]

You're on the right track, brinny, don't let people like genez (Elihu) or McGee (Zophar) get you off it. Like Job's human interlocutors, they don't get it. But you're getting it. So just keep trucking.

 

[GenemZ]

You're on the right track, brinny, don't let people like genez (Elihu) or McGee (Zophar) get you off it. Like Job's human interlocutors, they don't get it. But you're getting it. So just keep trucking.

Who are you?

I suppose you know the right track? May I quote you?

Brinny... look what he says is on the right track.

As an Anabaptist, I believe that an infant "baptism" is not a baptism. So I would urge you to be baptised. Baptism is not circumcision. It is the putting to death of our old ways in order to rise up again in newness and follow Yeshua. An infant cannot put to death its old ways--it has none--nor can it rise up again in newness and follow Yeshua since it doesn't even know Yeshua. An infant cannot be baptised. Period.

Water can do that? Not faith in Christ? Water baptism is not even for today, though in the early days of the church they continued with the old practice they had been accustomed to. They had to yet become accustomed to the new way of life to be found in the Church age through faith in Christ. The baptism for the Church age is of the Spirit.

On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.” Acts 1:4-5

​

How many baptisms are we now to have? Two?

One Lord, one faith, one baptism.

(Eph 4:5)



​

Not wanting to hijack this thread with a new topic. But I think it was needed for Brinny to see who it is that is cheering her on to remain where she has been. Your reasoning offered her no knowledge. We need knowledge, not simply some form of emotional support. Jesus said that the truth will make us free. Not having the approval of others.

If you want to debate what I just shed some light upon, we can start another thread. I said it only for Brinny's sake. She needs to know whom is cheering her on. You're not doing her any favors. But, she's a big girl. She can read what you advocate and decide for herself.

 

[brinny]

Originally Posted by brinny
this one:

Play Job 31:1—32:3 - Thru the Bible with Dr. J. Vernon McGee

Job never said any of what McGee is accusing him of. If Job would've gone along with what his friends accused him of, he'd have been lying. Job did not lack humility, nor did Job pat himself on the back. Job was never boasting.

Sounds like you might have some cherished preconceived notions about Job that JVM was crushing. Well? Was JVM wrong? Look at chapter 38. Look what the Lord finally needed to tell Job!

.. Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said:

“Who is this who darkens counsel
By words without knowledge?
Now prepare yourself like a man;
I will question you, and you shall answer Me.

“Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding. (Job 38:1-4)


​

In Chapter 38, the Lord went on about His greatness. He had to put Job in his place. He not once tells Job anything good about him. Job's intense suffering brought to the surface an area of weakness and sin that Job had lying beneath the surface. In Chapter 31, Job had been expressing self evaluation by declaring his righteousness to be according to his works. Chapter 31 is about Job giving one example after another of works he approved of. And, in turn? Was expressing his own self approval! Yes!! Job was patting himself on the back!!!

Job felt that his works were proof of his justification onto righteousness. Now? Who does that sound like? That was how a pharisee would evaluate himself to be right with God.

True righteousness knows that one is only justified by God. Our works are only a result and outworking, not the cause of righteousness. And, mind you. Very religious hypocrites could have named the very same works Job did.

Our righteousness comes from God only. This righteousness is revealed through our *understanding and wisdom*... not by works. Wisdom and understanding guide us through our works when they are called for. And, works are not the cause for our righteousness. For, that matter.. understanding and wisdom came from God, not from ourselves.

In Chapter 31, Job does not once give God credit for anything. Did you take notice of that? Read it again, please.


Grace and peace to Brinny.

Here's the bottom line.....Job was not being punished, during any of this. God Himself had given an evaluation of Job in the very beginning of the book. The accusations from his friends and his wife's statement to him were evil, plain n' simple and all were being ployed by satan to jab at Job...bottom line is he really wanted to KILL Job, but God wouldn't let him. Here's the bottom line for me. Job was being falsely accused and by his friends. They were vicious and being used by satan to the nth degree. Job was, totally in the dark about why this was happening...he was, as God said, in righteous standing with God. Then, bam bam, bam, like dominoes of the uttermost catastrophe, all that he knew, including his children were ripped right out from under him (except his wife, which i find intensely intriguing) and what does Job do? He WORSHIPS God, and as it is written, he sinned not. Later it is also written that he sinned not after he responded to his wife. Later, much later, i believe it was Elihu God was speaking to, and not to Job. Then God says that Job's friends had sinned and not spoken righteously as Job had. If Job had had any hidden glaring sins "hidden" in his heart, God would've never saiod what He said about Job in the beginning of the book.

Here's the bottom line: why did God say what He did to Job's friends, that Job would pray for them, or He (God) would do so9me serious damage to them?

Is it possible that the sin here, that is overlooked, again and again, is the sin of kicking someone when they're down and ignoring their suffering, and on top of that, accuse the suffering one of all manner of sins, and bringing down MORE burdens on their already faltering, nearly-at-death's-door condition of body, mind, and spirit.

The only ones condemned here were Job's friends. The only issue God had with Job is just reminding him that He inded is God and that He HAD all of this, and that even if Job was utterly baffled and beyond his endurance of suffering, to TRUST in Him, his Creator, the Alpha and the Omega, the Still-er of the storm, and the One Who in deed CONTROLS ALL evil. In the ending here, God was "ministering" to Job. God would've never had Job pray for his friends or said what He said about Job if Job had been guilty of any of what he was accused of. In essence, his "friends" were lying about Job and insulting him and telling him he deserved what he got. They sinned BIG Time, and in a spirit of contempt for Job and maliciousness. That's why God commanded them to bring that HUGE sin offering and told them that He would forgive them if Job prayed for them. In getting back to Job, In essence He was saying this to Job:

"Be still and know that I am God:" ~Psalms 46:10

Job was repenting of, in his utter misery and beyond-endurance-suffering, forgetting this.

I also believe that it is a reminder that we are to look to God for our "comfort", "edification", "healing" and "encouragement" and not "friends" or even our "wife".

And finally, it's a reminder to all of us to "Be still and know that He IS God"

Still - Be Still and Know that I am God! - YouTube

 

[brinny]

This study is giving me more of an appreciation for these men of God who God used so mightily...they are reminders of our Great God, the One Who LOVES us, and Who IS ABLE, praise His name!!!!

 

[brinny]

Today's study on Job begins in about 12 min....

by the way, i still love Dr. McGee dearly...i just don't agree with him, so far, about this study...

Update: ok, today's study was not much better...Elihu starts speaking...

 

[brinny]

You're on the right track, brinny, don't let people like genez (Elihu) or McGee (Zophar) get you off it. Like Job's human interlocutors, they don't get it. But you're getting it. So just keep trucking.

I appreciate everyone's input...i'm just mostly venting in my posts cuz i'm just so baffled....i'm still learning.....i just ask everyone to bear with me as i sort this out....

i have been in the midst of suffering, hemmed-in it seemed, and i was misunderstood, and God seemed absent....therefore my relating to Job's suffering may be diff'rent than someone else's.....the stickler for me then, was it seemed the suffering would intensify when i would bow to God and worship and praise Him...it was not only heart-wrenching, but unrelenting assaults on my mind and spirit that strained the very last threads of sanity for me....

 

[GenemZ]

Here's the bottom line.....Job was not being punished, during any of this. God Himself had given an evaluation of Job in the very beginning of the book.

Its not the bottom line. In spite of what God said about Job in the beginning (which was true)... Job still had an area that God was going to purify and deal with.

Look what was said about David. A man after God's heart and did all that God wanted from him. Yet? Was David as perfect as you presume Job to be?

Job was not fictional. He was real man. He had faults like all of us. Its when we begin to idolize a great believer in the Bible with our imagination, that we run into problems when God wants to reveal to all of us that we are fallen beings saved by grace.

Some fallen beings, saved by grace, please God. Others who are saved by grace, fail to. Not every believer in Jesus Christ is going to receive a crown! But, he will be saved!

Job was a sinner who was saved by grace, a man who pleased God. But, by no means does that mean was as perfect as you imagine him to be. We all FAIL at times. Job was no different. The book of Job reveals this to us. That is, if we are able to put down our preconceived ideals and allow ourselves to face the reality of who and what we are.

Job was not being punished for any wrong doing. I explained in detail why he was allowed by God to go through undeserved suffering. But, that did not make Job to be without weakness nor without fault. God used the situation to also further purify Job's walk with Him. There was an area in Job that became exposed by God's light. Job accepted the correction. He ended up being blessed even more than before as a result.

Ever try reasoning with a Catholic who idolizes Mary? Try to tell them that she was also a sinner.

I think, maybe.. you have that sort of problem with Job right now. Job was a righteous man who pleased God. But, God had more maturing work to do on Job. God used the situation of evidence testing to bring Job into a more pure walk with Himself, by placing Job through that fire.

Put that idol down. No man of God. No matter how much he pleases God, is ever 100% correct in all he will ever do in his life. I find it ironic that you are so quick to find fault with J Vernon McGee... But, Job must remain up on the pedestal that your heart desires for him to be on.

Only one man pleased God 100% of the time. He died on a cross.

 

[brinny]

Its not the bottom line. In spite of what God said about Job in the beginning (which was true)... Job still had an area that God was going to purify and deal with.

Look what was said about David. A man after God's heart and did all that God wanted from him. Yet? Was David as perfect as you presume Job to be?

Job was not fictional. He was real man. He had faults like all of us. Its when we begin to idolize a great believer in the Bible with our imagination, that we run into problems when God wants to reveal to all of us that we are fallen beings saved by grace.

Some fallen beings, saved by grace, please God. Others who are saved by grace, fail to. Not every believer in Jesus Christ is going to receive a crown! But, he will be saved!

Job was a sinner who was saved by grace, a man who pleased God. But, by no means does that mean was as perfect as you imagine him to be. We all FAIL at times. Job was no different. The book of Job reveals this to us. That is, if we are able to put down our preconceived ideals and allow ourselves to face the reality of who and what we are.

Job was not being punished for any wrong doing. I explained in detail why he was allowed by God to go through undeserved suffering. But, that did not make Job to be without weakness nor without fault. God used the situation to also further purify Job's walk with Him. There was an area in Job that became exposed by God's light. Job accepted the correction. He ended up being blessed even more than before as a result.

Ever try reasoning with a Catholic who idolizes Mary? Try to tell them that she was also a sinner.

I think, maybe.. you have that sort of problem with Job right now. Job was a righteous man who pleased God. But, God had more maturing work to do on Job. God used the situation of evidence testing to bring Job into a more pure walk with Himself, by placing Job through that fire.

Put that idol down. No man of God. No matter how much he pleases God, is ever 100% correct in all he will ever do in his life. I find it ironic that you are so quick to find fault with J Vernon McGee... But, Job must remain up on the pedestal that your heart desires for him to be on.

Only one man pleased God 100% of the time. He died on a cross.

There was a purpose in all of this that had nothing to do with any error on Job's part. I don't have Job on a pedestal, and neither have i put McGee on one....

another similar man of God was Jabez. He was sorely mis-understood also...I haven't put him on a pedestal either.

 

[brinny]

Its not the bottom line. In spite of what God said about Job in the beginning (which was true)... Job still had an area that God was going to purify and deal with.

Look what was said about David. A man after God's heart and did all that God wanted from him. Yet? Was David as perfect as you presume Job to be?

Job was not fictional. He was real man. He had faults like all of us. Its when we begin to idolize a great believer in the Bible with our imagination, that we run into problems when God wants to reveal to all of us that we are fallen beings saved by grace.

Some fallen beings, saved by grace, please God. Others who are saved by grace, fail to. Not every believer in Jesus Christ is going to receive a crown! But, he will be saved!

Job was a sinner who was saved by grace, a man who pleased God. But, by no means does that mean was as perfect as you imagine him to be. We all FAIL at times. Job was no different. The book of Job reveals this to us. That is, if we are able to put down our preconceived ideals and allow ourselves to face the reality of who and what we are.

Job was not being punished for any wrong doing. I explained in detail why he was allowed by God to go through undeserved suffering. But, that did not make Job to be without weakness nor without fault. God used the situation to also further purify Job's walk with Him. There was an area in Job that became exposed by God's light. Job accepted the correction. He ended up being blessed even more than before as a result.

Ever try reasoning with a Catholic who idolizes Mary? Try to tell them that she was also a sinner.

I think, maybe.. you have that sort of problem with Job right now. Job was a righteous man who pleased God. But, God had more maturing work to do on Job. God used the situation of evidence testing to bring Job into a more pure walk with Himself, by placing Job through that fire.

Put that idol down. No man of God. No matter how much he pleases God, is ever 100% correct in all he will ever do in his life. I find it ironic that you are so quick to find fault with J Vernon McGee... But, Job must remain up on the pedestal that your heart desires for him to be on.

Only one man pleased God 100% of the time. He died on a cross.

Did Job sin before or during this furnace of affliction?

 

[GenemZ]

Did Job sin before or during this furnace of affliction?

Both. He was not Jesus Christ.

Its not that we do not sin. Its what we do about sin when we sin that pleases God.

As we mature in the Spirit we will sin less. But, never become sinless. Just do not deny it when you sin. Name it to God. Accept His forgiveness that He says is always to be there for you. And, move on. Stay in the filling of the Spirit! That, pleases God.

If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us. (1 John 1:8-9)​

 

[brinny]

Both. He was not Jesus Christ.

Its not that we do not sin. Its what we do about sin when we sin that pleases God.

As we mature in the Spirit we will sin less. But, never become sinless. Just do not deny it when you sin. Name it to God. Accept His forgiveness that He says is always to be there for you. And, move on. Stay in the filling of the Spirit! That, pleases God.

If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us. (1 John 1:8-9)​

Job's heart was right with God before this began. THat's why God chose him. During this ordeal, Job did not sin. He was questioning why God, Who controls ALL things was "allowing" it. He was left in the dark about it. He was near death. There was no sweet peace that Job had in God before this occurred. He was without God's comfort. He was asking why. He knew it wasn't because of something he had done, because he KNEW GOD. He knew there must be a reason, he just didn't know what it was, and he was near death in the worst possible way, and so beaten down that he was reeling from the assaults on him by his "friends" who were being used of satan to let him have it.

The point of it all was beyond Job. Job did not know that.

Picture, if you will, the details of, just for now, Job's "physical" suffering. How might that be described, in detail?