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A question about Job.

brinny

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God's beckoning is quite profound isn't it, when He draws us to certain points He is makin' through one of us or otherwise.....and interestingly enough, "grace" is a powerful component to our understanding of God through the events of such profoundly inexplicable sufferings of Job

interesting that we were both gravitating towards "grace"

reminds me of this song i was just listening to.....and it somehow fits this thread, as we speak of "ruins" which describes Job inexplicably....

the song is called "Glorious Ruins"

GLORIOUS RUINS - HILLSONG LIVE (Lyric Video) - YouTube
 
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TillICollapse

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God's beckoning is quite profound isn't it, when He draws us to certain points He is makin' through one of us or otherwise.....and interestingly enough, "grace" is a powerful component to our understanding of God through the events of such profoundly inexplicable sufferings of Job

interesting that we were both gravitating towards "grace"

reminds me of this song i was just listening to.....and it somehow fits this thread, as we speak of "ruins" which describes Job inexplicably....

the song is called "Glorious Ruins"

GLORIOUS RUINS - HILLSONG LIVE (Lyric Video) - YouTube
Yeah, God's beckoning is profound. When He beckons, Life is created. Things that shouldn't be, suddenly are :)

Hmm .... ruins .... indeed :)
 
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brinny

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...and what a way to describe "ruins", eh? as "glorious"......only God could bring life into such an unlikely description of "ruins"

...raising beauty from ashes.....

by the way, where was Job sitting?
 
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TillICollapse

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...and what a way to describe "ruins", eh? as "glorious"......only God could bring life into such an unlikely description of "ruins"

...raising beauty from ashes.....

by the way, where was Job sitting?
Sitting amongst ashes.

Now I'm thinking of Phoenixes :)
 
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brinny

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Yes, Job was sitting in an ash heap, at the dump, wasn't he?

and speaking of "ashes", these verse comes to mind:

"The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the Lord, that he might be glorified." ~Isaiah 61:1-3
 
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Thank you kindly.



I'd rather delve into what the Bible says about this conversation God had about Job and to whom God had this conversation with. It would help me immensely referencing the Bible verses, since THIS is the key, right here in these verses to understanding the entire Book of Job.

Thank you kindly.

And no, you're not out of order. I appreciate all of our sharing about this most treasure of a Book, that i'm beginning to embrace more and more.

I will admit that I must be wrong to first think that Job cursed God continually, or even curse God but he was certainly cursing what had he become of this that came upon him. You must understand while Job was flipped upside down he could not think straight nor upright, it's impossible! No man may escape what God sends upon him. Albeit Job had the integrity that he was gifted, and even though he had been cursed he still retained his integrity. God knew that He could restore Job because he did have the integrity.



What do you make of chapter 3? It appears that Job did eventually curse his own life.

Job chapter 3 KJV Bible

1 After this opened Job his mouth, and cursed his day.

2 And Job spake, and said,

3 Let the day perish wherein I was born, and the night in which it was said, There is a man child conceived.

4 Let that day be darkness; let not God regard it from above, neither let the light shine upon it.

5 Let darkness and the shadow of death stain it; let a cloud dwell upon it; let the blackness of the day terrify it.

6 As for that night, let darkness seize upon it; let it not be joined unto the days of the year, let it not come into the number of the months.

7 Lo, let that night be solitary, let no joyful voice come therein.

8 Let them curse it that curse the day, who are ready to raise up their mourning.

9 Let the stars of the twilight thereof be dark; let it look for light, but have none; neither let it see the dawning of the day:

10 Because it shut not up the doors of my mother's womb, nor hid sorrow from mine eyes.

11 Why died I not from the womb? why did I not give up the ghost when I came out of the belly?

12 Why did the knees prevent me? or why the breasts that I should suck?

13 For now should I have lain still and been quiet, I should have slept: then had I been at rest,

14 With kings and counsellors of the earth, which built desolate places for themselves;

15 Or with princes that had gold, who filled their houses with silver:

16 Or as an hidden untimely birth I had not been; as infants which never saw light.

17 There the wicked cease from troubling; and there the weary be at rest.

18 There the prisoners rest together; they hear not the voice of the oppressor.

19 The small and great are there; and the servant is free from his master.

20 Wherefore is light given to him that is in misery, and life unto the bitter in soul;

21 Which long for death, but it cometh not; and dig for it more than for hid treasures;

22 Which rejoice exceedingly, and are glad, when they can find the grave?

23 Why is light given to a man whose way is hid, and whom God hath hedged in?

24 For my sighing cometh before I eat, and my roarings are poured out like the waters.

25 For the thing which I greatly feared is come upon me, and that which I was afraid of is come unto me.

26 I was not in safety, neither had I rest, neither was I quiet; yet trouble came.
 
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brinny

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I will admit that I must be wrong to first think that Job cursed God continually, or even curse God but he was certainly cursing what had he become of this that came upon him. You must understand while Job was flipped upside down he could not think straight nor upright, it's impossible! No man may escape what God sends upon him. Albeit Job had the integrity that he was gifted, and even though he had been cursed he still retained his integrity. God knew that He could restore Job because he did have the integrity.



What do you make of chapter 3? It appears that Job did eventually curse his own life.

Job chapter 3 KJV Bible

1 After this opened Job his mouth, and cursed his day.

2 And Job spake, and said,

3 Let the day perish wherein I was born, and the night in which it was said, There is a man child conceived.

4 Let that day be darkness; let not God regard it from above, neither let the light shine upon it.

5 Let darkness and the shadow of death stain it; let a cloud dwell upon it; let the blackness of the day terrify it.

6 As for that night, let darkness seize upon it; let it not be joined unto the days of the year, let it not come into the number of the months.

7 Lo, let that night be solitary, let no joyful voice come therein.

8 Let them curse it that curse the day, who are ready to raise up their mourning.

9 Let the stars of the twilight thereof be dark; let it look for light, but have none; neither let it see the dawning of the day:

10 Because it shut not up the doors of my mother's womb, nor hid sorrow from mine eyes.

11 Why died I not from the womb? why did I not give up the ghost when I came out of the belly?

12 Why did the knees prevent me? or why the breasts that I should suck?

13 For now should I have lain still and been quiet, I should have slept: then had I been at rest,

14 With kings and counsellors of the earth, which built desolate places for themselves;

15 Or with princes that had gold, who filled their houses with silver:

16 Or as an hidden untimely birth I had not been; as infants which never saw light.

17 There the wicked cease from troubling; and there the weary be at rest.

18 There the prisoners rest together; they hear not the voice of the oppressor.

19 The small and great are there; and the servant is free from his master.

20 Wherefore is light given to him that is in misery, and life unto the bitter in soul;

21 Which long for death, but it cometh not; and dig for it more than for hid treasures;

22 Which rejoice exceedingly, and are glad, when they can find the grave?

23 Why is light given to a man whose way is hid, and whom God hath hedged in?

24 For my sighing cometh before I eat, and my roarings are poured out like the waters.

25 For the thing which I greatly feared is come upon me, and that which I was afraid of is come unto me.

26 I was not in safety, neither had I rest, neither was I quiet; yet trouble came.

Why did these calamities begin to happen to Job?
 
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brinny

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brinny

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...another title to this thread could be, (and perhaps it should've been called):

Understanding Job's 'Language'.

Psalm 18 fits here. For this is what Job was doing throughout most of his inexplicable suffering. He was crying out to God. He was praying. His prayers were raw, befitting the stark, raw-ness of the suffering he was enduring. His prayers were pain-racked, just as his body, mind, and spirit was.

Rock bottom prayers of Job.
 
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TillICollapse

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I will admit that I must be wrong to first think that Job cursed God continually, or even curse God but he was certainly cursing what had he become of this that came upon him. You must understand while Job was flipped upside down he could not think straight nor upright, it's impossible! No man may escape what God sends upon him. Albeit Job had the integrity that he was gifted, and even though he had been cursed he still retained his integrity. God knew that He could restore Job because he did have the integrity.



What do you make of chapter 3? It appears that Job did eventually curse his own life.

Job chapter 3 KJV Bible

1 After this opened Job his mouth, and cursed his day.

2 And Job spake, and said,

3 Let the day perish wherein I was born, and the night in which it was said, There is a man child conceived.

4 Let that day be darkness; let not God regard it from above, neither let the light shine upon it.

5 Let darkness and the shadow of death stain it; let a cloud dwell upon it; let the blackness of the day terrify it.

6 As for that night, let darkness seize upon it; let it not be joined unto the days of the year, let it not come into the number of the months.

7 Lo, let that night be solitary, let no joyful voice come therein.

8 Let them curse it that curse the day, who are ready to raise up their mourning.

9 Let the stars of the twilight thereof be dark; let it look for light, but have none; neither let it see the dawning of the day:

10 Because it shut not up the doors of my mother's womb, nor hid sorrow from mine eyes.

11 Why died I not from the womb? why did I not give up the ghost when I came out of the belly?

12 Why did the knees prevent me? or why the breasts that I should suck?

13 For now should I have lain still and been quiet, I should have slept: then had I been at rest,

14 With kings and counsellors of the earth, which built desolate places for themselves;

15 Or with princes that had gold, who filled their houses with silver:

16 Or as an hidden untimely birth I had not been; as infants which never saw light.

17 There the wicked cease from troubling; and there the weary be at rest.

18 There the prisoners rest together; they hear not the voice of the oppressor.

19 The small and great are there; and the servant is free from his master.

20 Wherefore is light given to him that is in misery, and life unto the bitter in soul;

21 Which long for death, but it cometh not; and dig for it more than for hid treasures;

22 Which rejoice exceedingly, and are glad, when they can find the grave?

23 Why is light given to a man whose way is hid, and whom God hath hedged in?

24 For my sighing cometh before I eat, and my roarings are poured out like the waters.

25 For the thing which I greatly feared is come upon me, and that which I was afraid of is come unto me.

26 I was not in safety, neither had I rest, neither was I quiet; yet trouble came.
The way I take this, is that Job recognized he was bearing curses and calamities ... and he kept it personal. He didn't blame his family, his things, the LORD, or even Satan.

In the same way we see him attempting to atone for his loved ones in the beginning, he is still *atoning for something*, and now realizing there is basically no one and nothing left to atone for that he can point at, he's cutting through the middle man, and trying to curse his entire LIFE.

One could argue that in reaching these depths ... he begins to prophesy (beginning in verse 4 for example) about Jesus Himself, when He was crucified and bore our sins, bearing our curses, etc. When Jesus cried out to the Father asking "Why have you forsaken me ?" and then he died on the cross, giving up His life.

The point being, that what Job did wasn't wrong ... it was Christ like. Moses like. Paul like. In his trial he saw through to something.

The thing that Job arguably didn't understand completely, was the *point* ... what was he atoning for exactly ? He didn't blame anyone, or anything. But ... why all the suffering ?

It's confusing ... yes ? I mean, obviously. There is confusion as to why he is enduring such things, who is to blame, who isn't to blame, etc ...

But imo, part of the answer to this is right there in plain sight. The FRUIT tells you what he is atoning for, and why it doesn't work.

So I'll ask ... who is it that is seeking the sacrifice of Job ? Who is it that is demanding suffering and sacrifice of the righteous in this case ? Atonement is suppose to atone for sins ... death and curses are the price of breaking laws, sin, etc. In this case ... if it's not Job suffering these things for himself, who is he suffering them for ?
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Originally Posted by brinny
Why did these calamities begin to happen to Job?
May I first get a reply from you concerning chapter 3? You did not answer my question to you, instead you counter with another question. Thanks :)
The key to understanding chapter three lies within the very first verses in the Book of Job.

This summarizes Job, chapter 3. The title of this study is "Hitting Rock Bottom":

Wisdom for the Heart
Nice link. Here is another one if you and others are interested:

Kindgdom Bible Studies Job

The book of Job is written in Hebrew in the style of a poetic drama, or stage play. The first two chapters, which constitute the introduction, are in prose.
Beginning with the third chapter and continuing on through 42:6 the form is poetical. From 42:7 to the end of the book it is again prose, providing as an epilogue a few facts concerning Job's later life. What is so powerfully set forth in this book is not the unfolding of a drama full of action, event, or happening. Instead it is a poem in which several great issues that relate to the righteousness of God and the mystery of life are explored by means of conversations between Job and his friends. There is no "movement," except in the intensity of the feeling and thought expressed, until the poem comes to a crescendo with the voice of Yahweh speaking from a whirlwind.

The book of Job belongs to a type of literature known as Wisdom, common in the Near East, a special kind of writing based upon practical observations about the mystery of life — and how to live it. Its modern counterpart would be philosophy. But Hebrew Wisdom writing was often in the form of a fable, or a riddle, or a proverb — most often presented in the form of poetry or poetic drama.

Poetry is the language of imagination, intuition, and revelation. Poetry penetrates to a depth in the human soul that facts, reason and logic can never reach. Our confidence in the veracity of the Holy Scriptures need not be shaken, however, whether the story of Job is the history of an actual man who lived or merely the fictitious main character in a drama or stage play, for the divine inspiration of the book is readily evident. Job is not mere literature. It is life, distilled.


.
 
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brinny

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Indeed. Yet, I believe Job did indeed live and then died a good old age, as is written, just as another man, perhaps equally diss-understood, the man Jabez, lived.

I don't believe the conversations with Satan and God were parables or just stories either. I believe they happened, just as it is written.
 
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bmjackson

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Thank you very much for this thread brinny, and for all my brothers and sisters who like me, love the book of Job. It is my favourite actually because it is so deep. I know that if I spend the rest of my life studying it, I could not exhaust it's depth's.

As you have said brinny, Job was an upright man who feared God and turned from evil and that is why he has been handed over for this terrible stipping of everything in life that was his, God knew that He could trust him in the crucible and God was proven right and the Satan wrong.

Although great tragedy befell him, he did not curse God and continued to praise and bless Him. Little do we know what effect this has in the heavenlies, when we accept whatever befalls us too, and refuse self pity even though we are left in life with nothing but Christ our Redeemer and Rock of our salvation.

But all of a sudden we see Job regretting his birth and saying that the thing he feared most has happened to him. Is it because of the things he has lost? No. He had already said "The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away, blessed be the name of the Lord". The thing that he feared most, was losing the presence of God, to whom he was in deep communion with and who he thought about all the day long.

Job was now entering the 'dark night of the spirit' a time of unbelievable suffering, which is preserved for the mature and righteous and which has been written about elsewhere as UNDESERVED SUFFERING (St John of the Cross) which brings a man out as refined gold. It is not the 'dark night of the soul' which is a lesser and more commonly known time of trial. This dark night can barely be spoken of due to the extent of suffering which will bring a man to the point of insanity in order for him to be clothed from on high with a white garment and crown of life.

Job knew that he had not deserved the trial as his conscience was clear and he defended himself against his accusers, but he had a question for God as to why He had abandoned him. He sought and sought for a sin which he might have commited, and was ready to repent of it and sought God's face but there was no answer. Even though he had a lowly and humble heart and was ready to repent of anything untoward, still, God did not convict him of any sin and it was this that Job could not understand and which led him to think that he would be better off dead.

Jackson
 
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brinny

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Thank you for your input.....what i find astounding is that anyone might think it odd that Job would be depressed enough to want to die. There were other men of God who wanted to die as well. Weren't there?
 
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brinny

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Were Job's lamentations "prayers"?

This might help:

bury-you-dead-dirt-shovel.jpg



4chsmu1.gif
 
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