A Problem With The Pre-Tribulational Rapture

[A Brother In Christ]

A Brother In Christ
You post things neither you or anyone else can understand.



If you are going to post in tongues, you should interperit it, otherwise it's meaningless.
[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixOr_bT0mOk"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixOr_bT0mOk[/URL]

Jibber Jabber or plain english you can not understand....


???????

 

[garry2]

Jibber Jabber or plain english you can not understand....


???????

Here it is again

dkweriopr3girewih

You posted this as a reply to a post of mine.

Either it is meaningless or false talking in tongues.

You avoid answering what it means because it is one or the other, meaningless or evil.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

it mean nothing... you are suspecious person

 

[Dorothea]

Jesus doesn't come back to the earth during the rapture, He catches believers up to Him in the air and returns to heaven.

1 Thes. 4:15-17
"For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord."

That would mean those faithful left after the onslaught of the Antichrist.

Here's some excerpts from a book on the End Times called "Ultimate Things" that I am reading right now with regards to this subject:

The most telling critique of this doctrine is simply the fact of its newness. It developed from a series of visions experienced by a Scottish woman named Maragret Macdonald in 1830. She believed that a "spirit of prophecy" had revealed to her that, prior to Christ's Second Coming, He would come secretly to remove all Christians from the Earth. This novel idea was quickly adopted by Protestant doctrines, and spread throughout Europe and America.

The concept of Christ rapturing believers was completely unknown during the first thousand years of Christian history, during which time there was but one Christian Faith throughout the world. The Seven Ecumenical Councils of A.D. 325 through 787, in which all the essential doctrines of Christian Truth were declared, never mentioned a rapture.

Father Michael Pomazansky points out the traditional Christian teaching on this subject: that "even the elect will suffer on earth during the 'tribulation' period, and that for their sakes this period will be shortened (Matt. 24:21-22)."

Matt 24:29-31: "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

What could be more diabolically clever than for Antichrist to persuade his victims they need never fear even meeting him? Viewed from this perspective, the common conception of the rapture as a pre-Tribulation "emergency eject" seems to be far more than just a minor misinterpretation of Scripture. It is instead a demonic subterfuge designed to lure many into dangerous complacency. What is more trustworthy--a vision of one person from the nineteeth century or the concensus of the undivided Church of Jesus Christ?

The rapture theory is not so much an outright falsehood as a subtle corruption of truth, a beguiling invitation to be at ease and sleep just when the most stringent wakefulness and caution are needed. Such deception of twisting of God's Word is exactly the technique that Satan, Antichrist's source of power, has used successfully against mankind, beginning in the Garden with Adam and Eve.

Matt 24:24: "For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonder to deceive, if possible, even the elect."

 

[Dorothea]

not so, that is a lie and a trick of the devil.

Bingo. I hope more realize this as I have great concern for my sisters and brothers in Christ.

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

Bingo. I hope more realize this as I have great concern for my sisters and brothers in Christ.

I'd love to hear your reasoning as to why it is a trick of the devil. Zeke didn't respond to my last post, so maybe I can discuss this with you?

Tell me, what do you believe about the rapture/tribulation/second coming?

 

[Dorothea]

I'd love to hear your reasoning as to why it is a trick of the devil. Zeke didn't respond to my last post, so maybe I can discuss this with you?

Tell me, what do you believe about the rapture/tribulation/second coming?

I'm reading about it right now. I explained above from the excerpt in the book on the End Times about the deceiving by the devil. Here's some more info:

Once Antichrist has seized worldwide control of politics, economics, and religion, he will thoroughly and systematically annihilate any resistance to his authority. Then the persecution of those who have not surrendered to him will become so intense that, as the Lord says, "unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved" (Matthew 24:22).

Christians will be imprisoned, tortured to make them deny their faith in Christ, brutally murdered, deprived not only of home and sustenance, but even of the means to purchase food. Those will be times of unparalleled horror, of complete spiritual darkness, of such inimaginable suffering that even the communist Gulag was just a dress rehearsal by comparison. It will be the greatest agony of blood and tears that the world has ever seen, or will ever see. "For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be" (Matthew 24:21).

When these awesome events transpire, what will be the fate of those who have expected the rapture to isolate them from the Great Tribulation? It is safe to assume they will be unprepared to face the crisis. What's worse, they will not understand what is really happening! They will reason that, since they are still on earth, the Antichrist cannot possiby have come yet. This attitude was articulated by the respected Protestant theologian Arthur W. Pink: "The Antichrist cannot appear before the Rapture of the saints," he asserted. As long as the rapture has not yet occurred, "then here is proof positive that the Antichrist has not yet appeared." Not expecting the Deceiver, those awaiting the rapture could be completely taken in by his deception and unwittingly become his disciplines.

But God loves His children, and has forewarned them what to expect. The difficulties will be great, but it will be possible to resist the Antichrist.


I added the last couple sentence (which are later in the chapter) so my post was not total grim.

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

I'm reading about it right now. I explained above from the excerpt in the book on the End Times about the deceiving by the devil. Here's some more info:

Once Antichrist has seized worldwide control of politics, economics, and religion, he will thoroughly and systematically annihilate any resistance to his authority. Then the persecution of those who have not surrendered to him will become so intense that, as the Lord says, "unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved" (Matthew 24:22).

Christians will be imprisoned, tortured to make them deny their faith in Christ, brutally murdered, deprived not only of home and sustenance, but even of the means to purchase food. Those will be times of unparalleled horror, of complete spiritual darkness, of such inimaginable suffering that even the communist Gulag was just a dress rehearsal by comparison. It will be the greatest agony of blood and tears that the world has ever seen, or will ever see. "For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be" (Matthew 24:21).

When these awesome events transpire, what will be the fate of those who have expected the rapture to isolate them from the Great Tribulation? It is safe to assume they will be unprepared to face the crisis. What's worse, they will not understand what is really happening! They will reason that, since they are still on earth, the Antichrist cannot possiby have come yet. This attitude was articulated by the respected Protestant theologian Arthur W. Pink: "The Antichrist cannot appear before the Rapture of the saints," he asserted. As long as the rapture has not yet occurred, "then here is proof positive that the Antichrist has not yet appeared." Not expecting the Deceiver, those awaiting the rapture could be completely taken in by his deception and unwittingly become his disciplines.

But God loves His children, and has forewarned them what to expect. The difficulties will be great, but it will be possible to resist the Antichrist.


I added the last couple sentence (which are later in the chapter) so my post was not total grim.

Now I don't know if you personally hold this view you are quoting, but tell me. Do you really think that pretribulationalists, who have been the major proponents of putting forth extended study of biblical eschatology, will not know that we are in the tribulation if we are wrong? Honestly, we pretribulationists do think we "are not destined to wrath", but that God will "keep us from the hour of temptation"... but let's just say we do endure the tribulation, do you honestly think we who have put major study into this topic (especially dispensationalists) will not see the signs of His coming? Do you think that it won't cross our minds that "maybe we were wrong" when one appearing to be the antichrist makes a covenant with Israel for "one week", and he slaughters a pig on the temple and declares himself to be god? When he has a false prophet, who makes it necessary that all receive a mark in order to buy or sell goods, and erects a monument that speaks blasphemies? Do you honestly believe that we are so engulfed in our belief of a pretrib rapture that we would be so oblivious to those signs that we already know of?

 

[HisdaughterJen]

That would mean those faithful left after the onslaught of the Antichrist.

Here's some excerpts from a book on the End Times called "Ultimate Things" that I am reading right now with regards to this subject:

The most telling critique of this doctrine is simply the fact of its newness. It developed from a series of visions experienced by a Scottish woman named Maragret Macdonald in 1830. She believed that a "spirit of prophecy" had revealed to her that, prior to Christ's Second Coming, He would come secretly to remove all Christians from the Earth. This novel idea was quickly adopted by Protestant doctrines, and spread throughout Europe and America.

The concept of Christ rapturing believers was completely unknown during the first thousand years of Christian history, during which time there was but one Christian Faith throughout the world. The Seven Ecumenical Councils of A.D. 325 through 787, in which all the essential doctrines of Christian Truth were declared, never mentioned a rapture.

Father Michael Pomazansky points out the traditional Christian teaching on this subject: that "even the elect will suffer on earth during the 'tribulation' period, and that for their sakes this period will be shortened (Matt. 24:21-22)."

Matt 24:29-31: "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

What could be more diabolically clever than for Antichrist to persuade his victims they need never fear even meeting him? Viewed from this perspective, the common conception of the rapture as a pre-Tribulation "emergency eject" seems to be far more than just a minor misinterpretation of Scripture. It is instead a demonic subterfuge designed to lure many into dangerous complacency. What is more trustworthy--a vision of one person from the nineteeth century or the concensus of the undivided Church of Jesus Christ?

The rapture theory is not so much an outright falsehood as a subtle corruption of truth, a beguiling invitation to be at ease and sleep just when the most stringent wakefulness and caution are needed. Such deception of twisting of God's Word is exactly the technique that Satan, Antichrist's source of power, has used successfully against mankind, beginning in the Garden with Adam and Eve.

Matt 24:24: "For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonder to deceive, if possible, even the elect."

WE ARE IN THE TRIBULATION NOW!!!! It has been going on since Christ ascended and opened the first four seals. What remains is the final seven years of judgment and wrath.

Those false christs and false prophets are all around us! They pop up with crying statues, apparitions, and shapes of Jesus in toast.

What's with the "vision of one person in the 19th century" idea???

It's right there in YOUR BIBLE! Who needs a vision from some guy in the 19th century?

The rapture is not about "emergency eject". It is the giving of glorified bodies to the bride of Christ. It is our judgment because judgment begins with the family of God, Biblically. We are judged and found worthy. THEN, judgment and wrath is poured out on the earth.
It is the culmination of 6000 years of fallen flesh. It is our redemption and our salvation.

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

What's with the "vision of one person in the 19th century" idea???

I would be slow to use historical information that you nor anyone else can possibly prove. The idea that the pretrib rapture was seen as a demonic vision was proposed 30 years after it supposedly happened by a post-tribulationist. I know you wouldn't want to use incredulous information now would you?

Besides, it doesn't really matter where it came from; if it has biblical support then it deserves the time of day. I think people like to dismiss it because it has SO MUCH biblical support.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

I would be slow to use historical information that you nor anyone else can possibly prove. The idea that the pretrib rapture was seen as a demonic vision was proposed 30 years after it supposedly happened by a post-tribulationist. I know you wouldn't want to use incredulous information now would you?

Besides, it doesn't really matter where it came from; if it has biblical support then it deserves the time of day. I think people like to dismiss it because it has SO MUCH biblical support.

Yeah, it doesn't really matter what some vision in the 19th century was. The BIble is very clear on the timing of the giving of glorified bodies and the snatching of the body of Christ to be with Him around the throne of God.

 

[garry2]

The rapture theory is not so much an outright falsehood as a subtle corruption of truth,

Not theory, falsehood, corruption of truth, but Truth according to God.

1Thessalonians 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up (latin-raptura) together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

a beguiling invitation to be at ease and sleep

I, and I know other pre tribbers are forever watching, who are you speaking of?

just when the most stringent wakefulness and caution are needed. Such deception of twisting of God's Word is exactly the technique that Satan, Antichrist's source of power, has used successfully against mankind, beginning in the Garden with Adam and Eve

There is no twisting of Gods Word with pre tribbers, I copied and pasted the above verses.

 

[garry2]

Jibber Jabber or plain english you can not understand....


???????

dkweriopr3girewih

Is this plain english?

 

[garry2]

it mean nothing... you are suspecious person

If it means nothing then why post it?
Get serious when discussing things of God, don't be pretending to know tongues like those two on the video clip who like you were saying things that had no meaning.

 

[Dorothea]

There is no twisting of Gods Word with pre tribbers, I copied and pasted the above verses.

Where in those verses does it say that Christ's return is before the Great Tribulation? I think it says the opposite when it said "we who are alive and remain." That tells me they are the last of the Christians. Also, let me ask you, does the Antichrist come before or after Christ's Second and last coming? If you say Christ comes before, then Christ would have lied in saying He will come again, not He will come two more times.

Another excerpt:

One of Satan's greatest achievements has been to separate people from the living traditions of the church and to instill in their minds the notion that each person has the right and ability to interpret Scripture for himself. The contemporary concept of the rapture is a logical result of this mistaken attitude.

Holy Tradition, the living repository of Christ's teachigns, has appropriately been called "the life of the Holy Spirit in the Church" (Vladimir Lossky, contemporary Orthodox theologian). Without this Spirit-filled Tradition, the gospel cannot be correctly understood, nor can Satan be defeated.

In these perilous times, it is imperative that Christians look beyond the shallow interpretations and speculations of modernity, to the firm ground of authentic Christian teaching, rooted in the Holy Scriptures. The witness of the Holy Spirit in Christendom is a millenium of unified thought, beginning with the times of the Apostles, upon all the questions which confront believers even today. And it is from this wealth of consistent Christian thought that doctrines such as the rapture can be seen as the dangerous ploys they really are.

 

[garry2]

1Thessalonians 4

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up (latin-raptura) together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Where in those verses does it say that Christ's return is before the Great Tribulation?

Those verses do not deal with that, I adressed what you said in this quote:

The rapture theory is not so much an outright falsehood as a subtle corruption of truth, a beguiling invitation to be at ease and sleep just when the most stringent wakefulness and caution are needed. Such deception of twisting of God's Word is exactly the technique that Satan, Antichrist's source of power, has used successfully against mankind, beginning in the Garden with Adam and Eve

I think it says the opposite when it said "we who are alive and remain." That tells me they are the last of the Christians.

Those who are alive and remain, as opposed to they who have died, in the previous verse.

Also, let me ask you, does the Antichrist come before or after Christ's Second and last coming?

The antichrist could be here now, but not yet revealed.

If you say Christ comes before, then Christ would have lied in saying He will come again, not He will come two more times.

He comes one more time on the earth with all His Saints

1 Thessalonians 3
13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

These were caught up to Christ in the clouds previously.

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up (latin-raptura) together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Another excerpt:

One of Satan's greatest achievements has been to separate people from the living traditions of the church and to instill in their minds the notion that each person has the right and ability to interpret Scripture for himself. The contemporary concept of the rapture is a logical result of this mistaken attitude.

Every person does have the right to interperit scripture.


The Acts 17
11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

They did not just beleive what the apostles said, but searched the scriptures to see if what the apostles said was what is said in the scriptures, which means they read and had an understanding of scripture.

I don't know what you refer to as living traditions of the church.
I'm sure the greek orthodox church like the rcc don't have all the Truths.
Is it a tradition in your church to pray to the blessed virgin mary?
Does your church have a statue of her in it?

Searching the scriptures for truth has always been the right way.

Holy Tradition, the living repository of Christ's teachigns, has appropriately been called "the life of the Holy Spirit in the Church" (Vladimir Lossky, contemporary Orthodox theologian). Without this Spirit-filled Tradition, the gospel cannot be correctly understood, nor can Satan be defeated.


In these perilous times, it is imperative that Christians look beyond the shallow interpretations and speculations of modernity, to the firm ground of authentic Christian teaching, rooted in the Holy Scriptures. The witness of the Holy Spirit in Christendom is a millenium of unified thought, beginning with the times of the Apostles, upon all the questions which confront believers even today. And it is from this wealth of consistent Christian thought that doctrines such as the rapture can be seen as the dangerous ploys they really are.

The scriptures tell of the rapture so I don't want to hear about church traditions that oppose what scripture says.
Paul is just one who spoke of the catching up to Christ in the clouds.
There are numerous verses for the rapture.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The scriptures tell of the rapture so I don't want to hear about church traditions that oppose what scripture says.
Paul is just one who spoke of the catching up to Christ in the clouds.
There are numerous verses for the rapture.

Ok. We can all just sit around waiting for the Trumpet to blow. Just be happy.

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=47445280#post47445280

1 Corinthians 15:52 In a-moment, in twinkle of an eye, in the Last trumpet/salpiggi <4536>; for he-shall-be-trumpeting/salpisei <4537> (5692), and the dead-ones shall be being roused incorruptible, and we shall be being changed/allaghsomeqa <236> (5691).

Revelation 8:6 And the seven messengers having the seven trumpets/salpiggaV <4536> make ready themselves, that they-should-be-trumpeting/salpiswsin <4537> (5661) ;

 

[garry2]

Ok. We can all just sit around waiting for the Trumpet to blow.

Just be happy.

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=47445280#post47445280

1 Corinthians 15:52 In a-moment, in twinkle of an eye, in the Last trumpet/salpiggi <4536>; for he-shall-be-trumpeting/salpisei <4537> (5692), and the dead-ones shall be being roused incorruptible, and we shall be being changed/allaghsomeqa <236> (5691).

Revelation 8:6 And the seven messengers having the seven trumpets/salpiggaV <4536> make ready themselves, that they-should-be-trumpeting/salpiswsin <4537> (5661) ;

I am happy lloj even in the midst of turmoil.

 

[Dorothea]

I don't know what happened to your quotes. I hope they still show up. If not, I apologize.

First, I just want to say Church Tradition supports the Holy Scriptures. They work together.

Also, I don't think it's all right for people to interpret scripture on their own with no guidance. This leaves room for others than the Holy Spirit guiding you in interpreting the verses in the Bible.

 

[garry2]

I don't know what happened to your quotes. I hope they still show up. If not, I apologize.

First, I just want to say Church Tradition supports the Holy Scriptures. They work together.

Also, I don't think it's all right for people to interpret scripture on their own with no guidance. This leaves room for others than the Holy Spirit guiding you in interpreting the verses in the Bible.

Nice to talk with someone who is quiet and polite.