A Problem With The Pre-Tribulational Rapture

[cybersurfer]

I do apologize for the insults that was wrong of me and shows my need for Jesus.



Christ defines the 7 churches as the 7 candlesticks in Rev1.
Agree or disagree?


I have to say disagree the O.T. reference for these verses are in Exodus: "And thou shalt make the lamps thereof, seven: and they shall light the lamps thereof, to give light over against it."
"3And he made the lamps thereof, seven, and the snuffers thereof, and the snuff dishes thereof, of pure gold." The Lamp stands represent the churches not define the church. Plus we know from history that at that time there were more the seven churches. Even if they did define the church and they don’t it would not be the entire church. The Picture then is of Jesus in His role of High Priest in the mist of the churches ready to move out in Judgment. All the symbols in the Book of Revelation are explained elsewhere: either in a different part of the Book of Revelation or in some other part of the Bible. When there are symbols, the Bible itself will explain what these symbols mean either by direct statement or through a comparison of the usage of the symbol elsewhere in the Scriptures. The use of Lamp stand here symbolizes a witness, the local church is to be a witness, and if it fails to do so, then the high priest can remove it.


and He further defines them individually in Rev2-3.
Agree or disagree?

Disagree!


2 of the 7 are not chastised as the others are...Smyrna and Philadelphia, who share a common doctrine. Agree or disagree?
Disagree!
and we see the 2 candlesticks with the 2 olive trees (as the two witnesses) against the beast in Rev11. Agree or disagree?

Disagree that is a big leap just because two are chastised doesn’t automatically make them the two witnesses. That is Prooftexting the practice of using decontextualised quotations from a document to establish a proposition rhetorically. There are other problems by saying the two witnesses are two churches first they have supernatural abilities like to kill men by fire, cause drought by withholding rain, turn water to blood, cause other plagues. Churches can’t do that. And rev.11:1-13 tells us that the Antichrist will overcome them and kill them. And that is a direct contradiction of scripture where Jesus has said the Gates of Hell will not prevail against the church. Plus we are told that there ministry is only in Jerusalem. The church is worldwide. A better interpretation is that the two witnesses are two men whom the LORD will raise up during the tribulation itself.


so I do not understand how you can say that the church is gone, when we see them against the beast?
the elect are in the church...and they are certainly mentioned. The Saints are the church, and they are mentioned.


The church is gone for many reasons on being the LORD has not destined us for wrath Jesus took that for us at the cross and the Tribulation Is God’s wrath starting at Revelation 5:1. If you are saying that the church needs to go through the Tribulation you are saying the crucifixion of Jesus was not sufficient. And that is error.
The elect are sometimes referred to as the church and sometimes referred to as Israel so get specific. The saints are not the church there are saints in the church. The bible describes three groups of Saints. There are church saints; there are O.T. saints, and tribulations saints. The saints I think you are referring to are the tribulation saints and is not the ruptured church.


the point is to be working for Christ when He returns, and the vast majority of work to be done is to be done in that last hour of temptation. God always tries His people, and we are all going into captivity, just as the types suggest. Now, will you follow the world in this captivity, or will you stay faithful to Christ and wait for Him, in your patience possess ye your souls.
Are you saying that we need to work for our salvation?

and a strait forward fact is that 2Thes2 states very clearly that the Gathering to Christ happens AFTER the apostasy and the son of Perdition be revealed for who he reavealed

verses 1-2 Paul makes the point that the TRIBULATION could not have come yet because of two events. First the apostasy ( not rapture) of the church. Second the revelation of the man of sin, the son of perdition. There is to be a revelation of the identity of Antichrist that precedes the Tribulation and it is for the believers living at that time. The Rapture may or may not have occurred by then, since the scriptures do not state just how long before the tribulation the Rapture will occur. Therefore, this revelation to believers before the tribulation may be to the Church if the Rapture has not occurred, or it may be to the new body the of believers the tribulation saints who have accepted the gospel after the rapture of the church. The text does NOT state exactly how this revelation will come.But the scriptures indicate that this revelation may come because of two things. Since the tribulation will begin with the signing of the seven year covenant (Daniel 9:27) between Israel and the Antichrist. When this covenant is announced, believers may become aware of the identity of the Antichrist. or believers will deduce who he is by the numerical value of his name, which will be 666. The main points of II Thessalonians 2:1-12 appear to be: to comfort believers of Thessalonica, letting them know that they are not in the tribulation, nor has the tribulation arrived. To teach that there will be two separate revelations of the Antichrist at different points in time. And two things are being restrained: the mystery of lawlessness in Gereral now, and the Antichrist specifically in the future.


Mar13 says that the gathering is AFTER the trib of those end days, that hour when Satan tempts the population of the earth.

Mark 13 what?

 

[A Brother In Christ]

Gal 3:28 where there is either Jew or Gentile

you are using these scriptures as proofs for pre trib rapture, yet not even one of them is a proof for pre trib. all of them were about other topics...all of them???

why?
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1 cor 10:32 Jews, Gentiles , and the Church of God

people in the Church of God = church not Jew or Gentile
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not sure what you are saying here? or why? Is this related to pre trib???

This shows there are different groups of believers given different promises and 1 cor 15:23-24 show three different time for glorification ...

Mystery defined.. Romans 16:25-26, eph 3:9-10, col 1:26

wrong

Rom 16:25-26 is defined in verse 20. the elect shall bruise Satan under their feet. Not even close here ABIC.

Col1:26 is defined in verse 27...again the gentiles have the promise that was thought to be reserved for only the Jew. Christ.


Rapture is a mystery .... 1 cor 15:51-54 given only to the Church

the mystery is not the Gathering to Christ, but rather the fact that "we shalll not all die, but be changed" at the Last trump.
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nothing about pre trib, but it does say that the time is when the dead are gathered together with the alive...when we are changed.

and the olivelle prophesies say this same event (Gathering of elect from haven and earth) happens after the tribulation of those end days. AFTER is when the Gathering is. Why don't you believe?

see Mar13:24-27




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OT saints knew that They could escape death and watch as Christ comes for the 2nd coming...

but the scriptures you gave did not support you position. They do not speak of a pre trib mass gathering to Christ. And OT Saints did not know much of that time...they were given the prophesies, but told that they would not be understood until the final generation, (by the elect through the Holy Spirit, as we learn)


Jews promised the Earth.. Matt 5:5

meek does not represent the Jews, but ALL the overcomers. Maybe some will be Jewish!!!

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Eph 2:11-12 .... Gentile had no promise prior to the cross... Matt is prior at this point

any gentile could become one of the fold. And God uses who ever He wants to, to fulfill prophesy...

Church ...Gal 3:28....

what I see here is that we are all the same in God's eyes....is that the right scripture you meant?

Eph 2:11-12 how close could a gentile get to God during Law.... and if they became a Jewish proceylte they could not go in the tabernacle or Temple but on the outside of its gates only

how does this have any bearing on our discussion of pre or post trib Gatherig?

You do not want to look at the differences but only what is alike... this is a dangerous way of looking at scripture...

When it happens I hope to see you in the air...
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[A Brother In Christ]

ABIC

so explain 1 thes 4:16-17

I will
OT saint are looking forward to getting eternal life 75 days after the 2nd coming ... Dan 12:2,11-12

Saints are Saints....Christ went to all that were dead and offered the same oppertunity that we have. So the dead in Christ include the OT Prophets.

Yet deal with 2 peter 1:4, and heb 11:39-40, eph 2:11-12 .... scripture says different opportunities
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Hi....

and what? nothing to show a pre trib Gathering, as you assume

So you do not want to talk about scripture... this has every thing about the reason why different group being glorified at different times ​

Dainiel is not said to be raised 75 days after. Just that there is a blessing in waiting....

Daniel 12:2....summary... resurrection some to eternal life other to Judgement

Daniel 12:11 Judgement... 1290 days or Three and half years from the abomination of desolation... Dan 9:26-27, matt 24:15-20, 2 thes 2:4

Daniel 12:12 blessing ..eternal life 1335 days blessing comes ... glorification and eternal life which are 75 days after the 2nd coming

and I answered adequately. the length of the week has been shortened. it is not 7 years cut in 2 halves...but it is 5 months cut in 2 halves....that is 150 days, or 2x75

Believe you... or believe God's word... Jn 1:4

Satan is cast to earth and pretends to be Jesus in the middle of the week, or in this casre, 75 days.

if you wait, there is great blessings...if nopt, then you know.


remember that I have said in the past that the length of time has been shortened according to Mar13. And the length that it was shortened to is told in Rev 9. 150 days. That is one of the reasons that it shall be like in the days of Noah.

Rev 8:12 is where time will be sped up form 24 hr day to 16 hr day Matt 24:22 tells of this!as well as Mark 13:20
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not so, it is the entire length that is shortened, and the Locust army seen in Rev9 lead by Satan, tells us the length. 150 days (2x75).

in Rev13, we see the rise of the two beasts. The first rises in the first 75 days. it is a political beast...a gathering together of nations called by some the NWO....(babylon)

the second beast of Rev13 is when Satan is cast to earth, in the midst of the week...and he looks like a lamb but speaks as a dragon. It is Satan pretending to be Jesus.

the last hour, or great tribulation, or final week, or hour of temptation....was 7 years cut in half. Now it is shortened for the elect's sake. if it was just 16 hour days instead of 24 hours, that would not help the elect, would it? I do not see how. But if the entire length was shortened from 7 years to 5 months, then that would certainly help the elect. Preparing to live without assistance(not take the mark of the beast) is much easier to do for 5 months than 7 years.



Satan arrives at the 1/2 way point of the hour of temptation, that you assume is still 7 years cut in half. It is not that long anymore.


No still seven years with seasons
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no, 5 months with only one season, the season of the Locust...see Joel 2 and add Rev9

Believe you or God's word...

As in the flood of Noah, the waters prevailed 150 days...
The end time tribulation will be the same length of time.

So you are using

Matt 24:37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the Ark.

wow... The world will do exactly this Till the Rapture... then the Beast will sign a peace treaty and sevn years later the 2nd coming .
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not till the pre trib rapture, but to the post trib rapture. There is no pre trib rapture. God will not keep us from the fire, but He will sustain us through it.

there will be no signing by Satan...He is going to pretend to be Jesus Christ, not a war monger. his mere presence will be enough to stop ALL wars, and usher in the peace that we know he comes in on. They think he is Jesus, so all countries unite. they sign peace treaties, but he as an individual won't. he is not going to be a politicial, but the fallen angel Satan, pretending to be the retunring (rapturing) Jesus, and he has supernatural powers, that will fool the world.


But 1 thes 5:1 -2 Believer have no need to know this as the day of the Lord comes as a thief in the night ... destruction and lost

Revelation means the revealing, to be revealed, not hidden.

what is taught is that they already know how it is going to happen.

they know that it will be like in Noah's days, when the folks were living life and not worried or even thoinking of Noah's warnings that the flood ws coming.

and the fallen angels that were there, were the ones that were being married to the women. The type for us is that when Satan returns with his angels, they will spiritually defile women (the bride of Christ to be) and have them spiritually impregnated....so that they are with child....spiritually.... with Satan's offspring, instead of waiting for Christ and being His bride...they are not worthy and are harlots (spiritually)

Are you mormon?

the reason why it shall come as a theif in the night, is because no one will expect that time to be upon them...

the reason they will not expect it, is because they will think that God (Jesus) is already one arth with them.

some will not even know that they are in the flood until Christ arrives adn they see the change that is going to happen.

others will come out of Babylon right at the end of the 5 months, when God Himself speaks through the elect witnesses when they testify against Satan at the very end of the tribulation, and from that testimony others hear God's voice coming from the elect witnesses and repent...thus becoming the 144,000...and Christ's bride.

it will be like in the days of Noah for many reasons...the fallen angels, impregnation (spiritually), not expecting it to happen, the length of the waters being on the earth, the use of the word flood...many more too!





And like in Daniel, the time is divided in two.

the first half (75 days) is ruled by the kings of the earth in the NWO system. Satan controls the events from the spiritual world but is still waring in heaven.

the second half (75 days) starts with Satan being cast from heaven to the earth to play act Jesus.

So you deny Daniel 70th week which is one week is 7 years... why prophesy of the first 69 weeks fulfilled... literally
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I do not deny anything, Christ taught that the time is shortened for the elect's sake, otherwise no one would overcome...Satan woiuld fool everyone if God had not shortened the days...

no man or no angel knoweth the day....

I do not deny it, I realize it's fulfillment.


if one is faithful to the true Jesus and waits the 75 days until He arrives, that would mean that the person is elect because they were not fooled by Satan's flood of lies.

there is your 75 days. it is the midst of the week.....it is when the church becomes apostate. There is no pre trib Gathering to Christ.
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75 days marks the midst of the week, Satan's arrival...

stay faithful to Christ in the following 75 days, and you'll have a grand reward...accept the first Jesus that comes (claiming that the ptre trib rapture is soon to come, and he will do this while he is walking the earth) then you have the mark of the ebast. Pre trib is setting you up to believe that lie.



NT saints can be change in a moment and is a mystery that God did not tell anyone till Paul... Eph 3:2,9

the "at any moment" doctrine is false. that is not true. There is much prophesy still to go. Christ does not return till the 2nd Advent. the apostasy and the son of perdition must be revealed before the Gathering to Christ.

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Next prophecy ... the Rapture... Just as Noah God pulls out the saved and Judges the world...
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just as Noah and his falily did, the elect shall ride out the storm....Noah stayed on earth and let the flood take the world while they rode it out. They were not removed from the earth, but they were kept safe during that time, just as the elect shall be in that last hour. God needs witnesses and He is creating an army one arth right now, to do spiritual battle witht he enemy, until it is time to witness against him, and usher in the new age...

the Saints that believe during the seven years ... get OT promises and if Killed rev 7:9,14 as servants not as ruler as We get to do... 1 cor 6:2-3, phil 2:9-11 where at the Great White throne... rev 20:11-15


If one is in Christ, even if the choice is made after death as it must have been for all the OT Saints and prophets....one would return with Him at the trump of God/last trump/7th trump...as the Olivette prophesies say, and 1Thes4, 1Cor15, Re11, 14...they shall be gathered together...as Rev20 says. They are the first fruits, and any that God says is in that group is in htat group....IMO, the two olive trees(two witnesses) are Moses and Elijah...and they are OT prophets....coming here to help out the elect witnesses in that last half hour...

the "mystery" of Eph3:9 is not pre trib rapture, but that the gentiles should be joint heirs.....defined in verse 6....receive the promises of God as the Israelites


You are mind boggleing
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[A Brother In Christ]

Phil 3:20-21 promised the heavens

well, we shall all have a body like His, whether we be dead in Christ, or alive and remain until He comes back at the 2nd Advent. 1Cor15. they are talking about the fact that we are to believe that He shall come back. No time frame given...


Part of Christ now... 1 cor 12:12-13

no division between Jew and gentile...no rapture there.


God wrath goes upon earth dwellers... Not himself

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why would His wrath go on Himself? Why would you say not Himself???

Who was Saul presecuting in Acts 9:4 was this Christ or believers .... both Christ is the Head of the body eph eph 1:22-23 where we are all one connected by the indwelling of God where we get Eternal life upon belief
ok, again what does this have to do with the subject of rapture?

His wrath is for all who fail the test of the antiChrist. Even Christians who fail the test.

So Christ was not faithful to Adam and eve when they repent not.... or did God make them clothing... Gen 3:21

huh? if Adam and Eve repented, then they are forgiven...IMO I'd think that they did when they were given the chance by Jesus, between the crusifixion and the resurrection

When David slept with Uriah's wife Did God kill Him according to the Law! Romans 4:6-8

God punnished him worse than killing him...took his love and his child...and David knew that he was wrong and repented....God chose David for a reason. He is a type to us...murder is not the unforgivable sin even??? following Satan willingly is the unforgivable sin.

So peter who Christ called Satan is not forgiven?

Matt 16:23

or why does God warn us of Satan 2 cor 2:11

if God is not mad at you, you could stand in His wrath and it would not harm you at all. And God does not send His wrath until the 144,000 are Gathered together on Mt Zion at the Last(7th) trump.



If anyone who denys the Gospel during our time of grace they will believe the lie... 2 thes 4:9-10 , and be killed during the Great Trib...

pure hollywood....no fact.

those that believe the lie, God has blinded many of them to the truth for their own good...keeps them innocent of the blastpheme that they will soon be guilty of-worshiping Satan as God returned) and the lie is that Jesus comes first to rapture you away....

in reality, Satan is going to come first, and will pretend to be Jesus come to rapture you away( in his good time, when all who will be are ready, lol).

no one will be killed in the tribulation hour. none at all....it is about temptation. either one is marked of the best or one is sealed of God....and Rev9 teaches us that neither can be killed, only hurt...think of it as a spiritual death if they follow this fake Jesus that comes first....Satan comes on the wings of peace

ABIC
Zeke37
ABIC rsponse

Zeke37 ... no response?
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not enough time in the day....very busy lately..and a bad internet connection.


in His service
I am starting to get impatience so I will quit ... for a time...

 

[zeke37]

I do apologize for the insults that was wrong of me and shows my need for Jesus.

as we all need him...forgiven...as I hope I am for my part.

Christ defines the 7 churches as the 7 candlesticks in Rev1.
Agree or disagree?

I have to say disagree the O.T. reference for these verses are in Exodus: "And thou shalt make the lamps thereof, seven: and they shall light the lamps thereof, to give light over against it."
"3And he made the lamps thereof, seven, and the snuffers thereof, and the snuff dishes thereof, of pure gold."
there is a more direct example in the OT.
The Lamp stands represent the churches not define the church. Plus we know from history that at that time there were more the seven churches. Even if they did define the church and they don’t it would not be the entire church.

well, I hope to show you why that is IMO incorrect. 2 of 7 are good to go...

The Picture then is of Jesus in His role of High Priest in the mist of the churches ready to move out in Judgment. All the symbols in the Book of Revelation are explained elsewhere: either in a different part of the Book of Revelation or in some other part of the Bible. When there are symbols, the Bible itself will explain what these symbols mean either by direct statement or through a comparison of the usage of the symbol elsewhere in the Scriptures. The use of Lamp stand here symbolizes a witness, the local church is to be a witness, and if it fails to do so, then the high priest can remove it.

earlier, I was saying that 5 of the 7 churches go apostate, and only 2 are faithful until Christ. Thoe two team up with the Olive trees/branches and they are seen in opposition to the beast...

and the place where the example is given as a paralell to this, is in Zec4.

the word picture details the olive trees feeding truth (oil) to the 7 lampstands (candlesticks)...one olive tree on the left side and one on the right side of the candlesticks.... but only the candlesticks on the outside...directly in contact with the olive trees.... receive the oil. The other 5 do not. This scene in Rev 11, told with the help of Rev1-3, is based on the same vision

now, when one reads Christ's messages to the 7 churches, 5 of the church TYPES are chastizement, and we can see that 2 are not chastized ...7 means spiritual perfection and these 7 churches were in a circle on a map...it is actually pretty cool....representing the whole church...world....

God would not have defined the candlesticks as the churches in Rev1, and then further define the churches in Rev2-3 and then used the same word candlestick again in Rev11...if it had no meaning....

the two churches Smyrna and Philadelphia (as a type for us) are the end time witnesses of Mar13 and Rev11...what ever they teach, is the truth...and they (Smyrna and Philadelphia) just so happen to have the same doctrine, while the others do not.

and He further defines them individually in Rev2-3.
Agree or disagree?

Disagree!

so you disagree that the 7 candlesticks defined as the 7 churches in Rev1, are shown right after individually, in Rev2-3? even if that is what Christ said in Rev1?

the end of Rev1 states that John is to write all the things he is to see to the 7 churches....so how are they not related?

2 of the 7 are not chastised as the others are...Smyrna and Philadelphia, who share a common doctrine. Agree or disagree?

Disagree!

but they do share a common doctrine, and they are the only two that are not chastized by Jesus. Why do you see a problem with this?

and we see the 2 candlesticks with the 2 olive trees (as the two witnesses) against the beast in Rev11. Agree or disagree?

Disagree that is a big leap just because two are chastised doesn’t automatically make them the two witnesses. That is Prooftexting the practice of using decontextualised quotations from a document to establish a proposition rhetorically. There are other problems by saying the two witnesses are two churches first they have supernatural abilities like to kill men by fire, cause drought by withholding rain, turn water to blood, cause other plagues.

what about the fact that they are the candlesticks...they are churches correct? according to Christ in Rev1. And two are good to go by Christ's standards...while the other He has something against.

and we see these two witnesses against the beast....and we know that the church will go apostate from 2Thes2

the 2 churches are part of the two witnesses....the two witnesses are the 2 candlesticks AND the 2 olive trees...

it is my understanding that the two olive trees are the ones that will be doing the OT miracles of Moses and Elijah...which is who I think they will be.

they are feeding the 2 churches the truth in that time, as the others go apostate and follow the fake Jesus, Satan cast from heaven to earth for a short season. These two individuals shall die in the flesh so to speak, while the two candlesticks witness against Satan in the great end time trial of the elect.

those two churches shall witness against the devil and God will speak through them as we see in Acts 2 and prophesied of in Joel2(Mar13:9-13), where the whole world understands....

Churches can’t do that. (miracles)

but the two Olive trees can, as it is said in Mal4...and the 2 churches shall be filled with truth and witness against him who is Satan pretending to be Jesus returned.

And rev.11:1-13 tells us that the Antichrist will overcome them and kill them.

he shall kill the two olive trees...(Moses and Elijah will then have died in the flesh) but not the two candlesticks, for they have that promise of Mar13 to look forward to...protection as God is going to use them to testify against Satan...so the world can know that it is not Jesus returned but the fake, Satan the devil.

and they shall be alive on earth, to be changed fromn flesh to the celestial body, and gathered together with the dead in Christ who are now returning to earth as their promise in 1Thes4:13-14 states.

they return with Jesus at the last trump/trump of God/7th trump. post trib of course.

so, brain matter shows that the part of the two witnesses that lives and is changed at His Coming and Gathered to the elect from heaven returning with Him.... is the 2 candlesticks.




And that is a direct contradiction of scripture where Jesus has said the Gates of Hell will not prevail against the church.

there is a part of the church that needs to be refined, and will be in the Millennium...and there is a part of the church that will always have the truth, as God promised to keep a remnant of elect to carry on the truth...always...so the church will never go completely apostate, but it will be real close...God chose a group to see through the lies of Satan (even in doctrine) and they shall not be taken....they shall stand guard, they shall shout the warning...and they shall be working in the field when He comes...not spiritual harlots, impregnated with Satan's lies...(pretending to be Jesus Christ on earth)

Plus we are told that there ministry is only in Jerusalem.

which ministry? who? the witnesses ministry is not only in Jerusalem? How did you come to that conclusion? This is not JUST a Jerusalem event my friend. it is where ever Israel is, and that is as the sands of the sea....through migration of the scattered tribes, scattered by the Assyrian (plan of God)..the Christian nations basically...europe, the america's, etc.


The church is worldwide. A better interpretation is that the two witnesses are two men whom the LORD will raise up during the tribulation itself.

they are both the two churches and two prophets. 2 candlesticks and 2 olive trees...as seen in Zec4.

so I do not understand how you can say that the church is gone, when we see them against the beast?

the elect are in the church...and they are certainly mentioned. The Saints are the church, and they are mentioned.

The church is gone for many reasons on being the LORD has not destined us for wrath Jesus took that for us at the cross and the Tribulation Is God’s wrath starting at Revelation 5:1.

the wrath of God does not start until after the elect are seen gathered to Christ in Rev14...standing on Mt Zion with Him...protected from any wrath that God has to pour on His children to refine them in Rev15-16. Rev4 and 5 are parenthetical...

Rev5:1 is about the seals of the Living God...which is information in the Word, given by the Holy Spirit, opened by the Lamb Himself, received by the firstfruits....to sustain them and keep them safe and keep them from being tempted by Satan in the hour of temptation. INFO for the elect.

If you are saying that the church needs to go through the Tribulation you are saying the crucifixion of Jesus was not sufficient. And that is error.

not only did I not say that Christ's crucifixion wasn't necessary, but I AM saying that the church will got through the tribulation. it is called the hour of temptation as well...for good reason..will you be tempted by Satan when he pretends to be Jesua and comes to rapture you away...and do so right frome arth) The part of the church that is not tempted by Satan is called the elect, and they shall overcome as a firstfruit. The ones that fail this test, will be refined in the Millennium and will have to face Satan one last time....after 1000 years of learning the treal truth without error.

to think that God will not test us is wrong...He will and does...but to the faithful He promises protection....He will not remove us from the fire, but He will keep us safe in it. Think Daniel.

The elect are sometimes referred to as the church and sometimes referred to as Israel so get specific.

specifically, when the whole house of Israel is mentioned it means their 12 tribes, if it is the house of Israel, then it is the 10 northern tribes (descendants)decendants...which migrated into the Christian nations basically...(and any that join and believe as types show) ...

and

the house of Judah, which is the southern two tribes of Benjamin and Judah....

Levites shared the two nations, and there were always some stragglers left behind from the Assyrian captivity who fell under the remaining Jewish nation...

Ironically, todays house of Judah calls itself politically, Israel...even though it is mainly comnprised of Jews.





so, to be specific, when Judah is mentioned in prophesy, it means the Jews...and when Israel is mentioned in propesy, it means the descendants of thre scattered tribes, who migrated to europe and basically became the Christian nations of today...


so Israel is refering to most of us Christians, not by replacement theology, but by blood line and migration patterns...fulfilling prophesy.



the elect are with in the tribes for sure, but chosen before this age ever began, for a specific reason...to witness against Satan...to defeat him and help others into the fold.

to further prophesy...to bring it to pass. They are needed in the end....and the elect are CHRISTIANS for they follow the Lamb where ever He goes.

The saints are not the church there are saints in the church. The bible describes three groups of Saints. There are church saints; there are O.T. saints, and tribulations saints. The saints I think you are referring to are the tribulation saints and is not the ruptured church.

I'd say that is incorrect. (although truthfully, I chuckled a little at the misspelling of raptured church...)

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[zeke37]

the point is to be working for Christ when He returns, and the vast majority of work to be done is to be done in that last hour of temptation. God always tries His people, and we are all going into captivity, just as the types suggest. Now, will you follow the world in this captivity, or will you stay faithful to Christ and wait for Him, in your patience possess ye your souls.

Are you saying that we need to work for our salvation?

need is a large word...all your works won't get you in, we all know that I hope....but works are glory to God, and by your works I shall see your faith....so why would we not want to. You can make it into heaven naked, or arrayed beautifully...choice is ours to make....The elect cannot help but work for God....

in the Millennium, it is all about works....faith will not cut it anymore in the Millennium, because Jesus will be there. it will then be about works.

and a strait forward fact is that 2Thes2 states very clearly that the Gathering to Christ happens AFTER the apostasy and the son of Perdition be revealed for who he reavealed

verses 1-2 Paul makes the point that the TRIBULATION could not have come yet because of two events. First the apostasy ( not rapture) of the church.

incorrect...it is the Gathering to Christ that is the subject, not the tribulation...events in the tribulation are spoken of so that the practitioners and you and me, know that the tribulation MUST come first, before the Gathering to Christ...


easy right?

so the church MUST go apostate first, before Satan claims to be Jesus returned.

Second the revelation of the man of sin, the son of perdition. There is to be a revelation of the identity of Antichrist that precedes the Tribulation and it is for the believers living at that time.

no not the tribulation, but the Gathering to Christ as stated in 2Thes2:1-3. we should resolve this error first...agree? There is no where stated that there shall be a revelation (reveling of the antiChrist befoire the tribulation....but before teh Gathering to Christ...literally...it is Christ who shall (by the brightness of His Coming) show who is really who...a.s the world will see Christ alrrive and know instantly that they were following a fake Jesus...

The Rapture may or may not have occurred by then,

it cannot, because in verse 1-3 we read that the Gathering to Christ cannot happen before the son of Perdition is revealed and the apostasy happens.

since the scriptures do not state just how long before the tribulation the Rapture will occur.

no such event before...only after.

Therefore, this revelation to believers before the tribulation may be to the Church if the Rapture has not occurred, or it may be to the new body the of believers the tribulation saints who have accepted the gospel after the rapture of the church.

fantasy

The text does NOT state exactly how this revelation will come.But the scriptures indicate that this revelation may come because of two things. Since the tribulation will begin with the signing of the seven year covenant (Daniel 9:27) between Israel and the Antichrist.

fantasy again...but there will be a broken peace....and oncomming war, which Satan stops with his arrival, when he is cast from ehaven...and play acts the retunred Jesus. The world believes it and the war stops...peace again...but this time, under Satan as the pretend Jesus. Apostasy as all Christians but those elect follow Satan....hook, line and sinker.

Satan comes first.

When this covenant is announced, believers may become aware of the identity of the Antichrist. or believers will deduce who he is by the numerical value of his name, which will be 666.

again fantasy...the world will be completely fooled....all but the elect....right up till the end. Only the elect shall know what is what and who is who.

The main points of II Thessalonians 2:1-12 appear to be: to comfort believers of Thessalonica, letting them know that they are not in the tribulation, nor has the tribulation arrived.

ok, which means that the Gathering to Christ has not happened yet and cannot until the events of the tribulation happen first...as the opening verses state

To teach that there will be two separate revelations of the Antichrist at different points in time.

lost me here...I don't even know where you are pulling from?

And two things are being restrained: the mystery of lawlessness in Gereral now, and the Antichrist specifically in the future.

antiChrist now as well....as antiChrist is actually Satan, held by Michael in heaven until he is cast out to the earth with his angels for a short season. 1/2 the hour of temptation (silence)

Mar13 says that the gathering is AFTER the trib of those end days, that hour when Satan tempts the population of the earth.

Mark 13 what?[/quote]
Mar13:24f, Mat24:29-31...AFTER.

same as 2Thes2...after....

2 TRIBULATIONS...one of Satan and one of Almighty God. we are all here for both of them, either protected by God, or in Satan's camp.

God shall sustain us through the fire, but not remove us from it. We are going into captivity, as all the types show. ever wonder why the end time prophesies are surrounded by the captivities first of the Assyrian, and tehn of eh Babylonian?

we are going into captivity too! just as the types suggest/

be prepared instead of believing that you will leave the planet..

Satan comes first to deceive...Not that he could actually remove you from the planet, but he could lie to you and tell you that he is waiting for the right time to leave, when all that will, come to him...

then....whoooooosh, fly away.


just a lie...a flood of lies.


in His service
c

 

[zeke37]

Gal 3:28 where there is either Jew or Gentile

you are using these scriptures as proofs for pre trib rapture, yet not even one of them is a proof for pre trib. all of them were about other topics...all of them???

why?
​

1 cor 10:32 Jews, Gentiles , and the Church of God

people in the Church of God = church not Jew or Gentile
​

not sure what you are saying here? or why? Is this related to pre trib???

This shows there are different groups of believers given different promises and 1 cor 15:23-24 show three different time for glorification ...

well, it says Christ and the firstfruits (dead believers) are first, and the elect alive at HIS return, (who are Gathered together with them....on earth with Him)

it does not show that the Gathering to Christ is going to be pre trib, but when the dead return to earth...which is post trib...AFTER the trib of that time, according to Jesus in Mat24 and Mar13.



Mystery defined.. Romans 16:25-26, eph 3:9-10, col 1:26

wrong

Rom 16:25-26 is defined in verse 20. the elect shall bruise Satan under their feet. Not even close here ABIC.

Col1:26 is defined in verse 27...again the gentiles have the promise that was thought to be reserved for only the Jew. Christ.


Rapture is a mystery .... 1 cor 15:51-54 given only to the Church

the mystery is not the Gathering to Christ, but rather the fact that "we shalll not all die, but be changed" at the Last trump.
​

nothing about pre trib, but it does say that the time is when the dead are gathered together with the alive...when we are changed.

and the olivelle prophesies say this same event (Gathering of elect from haven and earth) happens after the tribulation of those end days. AFTER is when the Gathering is. Why don't you believe?

see Mar13:24-27




​

OT saints knew that They could escape death and watch as Christ comes for the 2nd coming...

but the scriptures you gave did not support you position. They do not speak of a pre trib mass gathering to Christ. And OT Saints did not know much of that time...they were given the prophesies, but told that they would not be understood until the final generation, (by the elect through the Holy Spirit, as we learn)


Jews promised the Earth.. Matt 5:5

meek does not represent the Jews, but ALL the overcomers. Maybe some will be Jewish!!!

​

Eph 2:11-12 .... Gentile had no promise prior to the cross... Matt is prior at this point

any gentile could become one of the fold. And God uses who ever He wants to, to fulfill prophesy...

Church ...Gal 3:28....

what I see here is that we are all the same in God's eyes....is that the right scripture you meant?

Eph 2:11-12 how close could a gentile get to God during Law.... and if they became a Jewish proceylte they could not go in the tabernacle or Temple but on the outside of its gates only

how does this have any bearing on our discussion of pre or post trib Gatherig?


You do not want to look at the differences but only what is alike... this is a dangerous way of looking at scripture...

When it happens I hope to see you in the air...

"it" being the Gathering will happen, and I thank you for that, but I do not believe anyone is going anywhere. Christ is Coming here...figures of speach and a few badly translated words have you confused...

air=that same spiritual body, spoken of in 1Cor15...and UP is not in the manuscripts...do you believe me about that?
​

ABIC

so explain 1 thes 4:16-17

I will
OT saint are looking forward to getting eternal life 75 days after the 2nd coming ... Dan 12:2,11-12

Saints are Saints....Christ went to all that were dead and offered the same oppertunity that we have. So the dead in Christ include the OT Prophets.

Yet deal with 2 peter 1:4, and heb 11:39-40, eph 2:11-12 .... scripture says different opportunities
​

Hi....

and what? nothing to show a pre trib Gathering, as you assume

So you do not want to talk about scripture... ​

who says? sure I do...​

this has every thing about the reason why different group being glorified at different times ​

and specifically, where is a pre trib gathering to Christ is mentioned here? it is not. so?​

Dainiel is not said to be raised 75 days after. Just that there is a blessing in waiting....

Daniel 12:2....summary... resurrection some to eternal life other to Judgement

Daniel 12:11 Judgement... 1290 days or Three and half years from the abomination of desolation... Dan 9:26-27, matt 24:15-20, 2 thes 2:4

Daniel 12:12 blessing ..eternal life 1335 days blessing comes ... glorification and eternal life which are 75 days after the 2nd coming

and I answered adequately. the length of the week has been shortened. it is not 7 years cut in 2 halves...but it is 5 months cut in 2 halves....that is 150 days, or 2x75

Believe you... or believe God's word... Jn 1:4

oooooo. ouch...implying that I do not have God's Word, when all I have done is show you from scripture that you are wrong. The Gathering to Christ happen after the son of Perdition and the apostasy (departure of the faith) happens, not before. To say otherwise is really to argue with sound scripture.



Satan is cast to earth and pretends to be Jesus in the middle of the week, or in this casre, 75 days.

if you wait, there is great blessings...if nopt, then you know.


remember that I have said in the past that the length of time has been shortened according to Mar13. And the length that it was shortened to is told in Rev 9. 150 days. That is one of the reasons that it shall be like in the days of Noah.

Rev 8:12 is where time will be sped up form 24 hr day to 16 hr day Matt 24:22 tells of this!as well as Mark 13:20
​

not so, it is the entire length that is shortened, and the Locust army seen in Rev9 lead by Satan, tells us the length. 150 days (2x75).

in Rev13, we see the rise of the two beasts. The first rises in the first 75 days. it is a political beast...a gathering together of nations called by some the NWO....(babylon)

the second beast of Rev13 is when Satan is cast to earth, in the midst of the week...and he looks like a lamb but speaks as a dragon. It is Satan pretending to be Jesus.

the last hour, or great tribulation, or final week, or hour of temptation....was 7 years cut in half. Now it is shortened for the elect's sake. if it was just 16 hour days instead of 24 hours, that would not help the elect, would it? I do not see how. But if the entire length was shortened from 7 years to 5 months, then that would certainly help the elect. Preparing to live without assistance(not take the mark of the beast) is much easier to do for 5 months than 7 years.



Satan arrives at the 1/2 way point of the hour of temptation, that you assume is still 7 years cut in half. It is not that long anymore.


No still seven years with seasons
​

no, 5 months with only one season, the season of the Locust...see Joel 2 and add Rev9

Believe you or God's word...

both....your understanding is flawed, sorry.


As in the flood of Noah, the waters prevailed 150 days...
The end time tribulation will be the same length of time.

So you are using

Matt 24:37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the Ark.

wow... The world will do exactly this Till the Rapture... then the Beast will sign a peace treaty and sevn years later the 2nd coming .
​

not till the pre trib rapture, but to the post trib rapture. There is no pre trib rapture. God will not keep us from the fire, but He will sustain us through it.

there will be no signing by Satan...He is going to pretend to be Jesus Christ, not a war monger. his mere presence will be enough to stop ALL wars, and usher in the peace that we know he comes in on. They think he is Jesus, so all countries unite. they sign peace treaties, but he as an individual won't. he is not going to be a politicial, but the fallen angel Satan, pretending to be the retunring (rapturing) Jesus, and he has supernatural powers, that will fool the world.


But 1 thes 5:1 -2 Believer have no need to know this as the day of the Lord comes as a thief in the night ... destruction and lost

Revelation means the revealing, to be revealed, not hidden.

what is taught is that they already know how it is going to happen.

they know that it will be like in Noah's days, when the folks were living life and not worried or even thoinking of Noah's warnings that the flood ws coming.

and the fallen angels that were there, were the ones that were being married to the women. The type for us is that when Satan returns with his angels, they will spiritually defile women (the bride of Christ to be) and have them spiritually impregnated....so that they are with child....spiritually.... with Satan's offspring, instead of waiting for Christ and being His bride...they are not worthy and are harlots (spiritually)

Are you mormon?

no, I am a Christian....are you a mormon?

​

continued
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[zeke37]

the reason why it shall come as a theif in the night, is because no one will expect that time to be upon them...

the reason they will not expect it, is because they will think that God (Jesus) is already one arth with them.

some will not even know that they are in the flood until Christ arrives adn they see the change that is going to happen.

others will come out of Babylon right at the end of the 5 months, when God Himself speaks through the elect witnesses when they testify against Satan at the very end of the tribulation, and from that testimony others hear God's voice coming from the elect witnesses and repent...thus becoming the 144,000...and Christ's bride.

it will be like in the days of Noah for many reasons...the fallen angels, impregnation (spiritually), not expecting it to happen, the length of the waters being on the earth, the use of the word flood...many more too!





And like in Daniel, the time is divided in two.

the first half (75 days) is ruled by the kings of the earth in the NWO system. Satan controls the events from the spiritual world but is still waring in heaven.

the second half (75 days) starts with Satan being cast from heaven to the earth to play act Jesus.

So you deny Daniel 70th week which is one week is 7 years... why prophesy of the first 69 weeks fulfilled... literally

I do not deny anything, Christ taught that the time is shortened for the elect's sake, otherwise no one would overcome...Satan would fool everyone if God had not shortened the days...

no man or no angel knoweth the day....

I do not deny it, I realize it's fulfillment.


if one is faithful to the true Jesus and waits the 75 days until He arrives, that would mean that the person is elect because they were not fooled by Satan's flood of lies.

there is your 75 days. it is the midst of the week.....it is when the church becomes apostate. There is no pre trib Gathering to Christ.
​

75 days marks the midst of the week, Satan's arrival...

stay faithful to Christ in the following 75 days, and you'll have a grand reward...accept the first Jesus that comes (claiming that the ptre trib rapture is soon to come, and he will do this while he is walking the earth) then you have the mark of the ebast. Pre trib is setting you up to believe that lie.



NT saints can be change in a moment and is a mystery that God did not tell anyone till Paul... Eph 3:2,9

the "at any moment" doctrine is false. that is not true. There is much prophesy still to go. Christ does not return till the 2nd Advent. the apostasy and the son of perdition must be revealed before the Gathering to Christ.

​

Next prophecy ... the Rapture... Just as Noah God pulls out the saved and Judges the world...
​

just as Noah and his falily did, the elect shall ride out the storm....Noah stayed on earth and let the flood take the world while they rode it out. They were not removed from the earth, but they were kept safe during that time, just as the elect shall be in that last hour. God needs witnesses and He is creating an army one arth right now, to do spiritual battle witht he enemy, until it is time to witness against him, and usher in the new age...

the Saints that believe during the seven years ... get OT promises and if Killed rev 7:9,14 as servants not as ruler as We get to do... 1 cor 6:2-3, phil 2:9-11 where at the Great White throne... rev 20:11-15


If one is in Christ, even if the choice is made after death as it must have been for all the OT Saints and prophets....one would return with Him at the trump of God/last trump/7th trump...as the Olivette prophesies say, and 1Thes4, 1Cor15, Re11, 14...they shall be gathered together...as Rev20 says. They are the first fruits, and any that God says is in that group is in htat group....IMO, the two olive trees(two witnesses) are Moses and Elijah...and they are OT prophets....coming here to help out the elect witnesses in that last half hour...

the "mystery" of Eph3:9 is not pre trib rapture, but that the gentiles should be joint heirs.....defined in verse 6....receive the promises of God as the Israelites


You are mind boggleing

look in the mirror...get that log out!
​

​

Phil 3:20-21 promised the heavens

well, we shall all have a body like His, whether we be dead in Christ, or alive and remain until He comes back at the 2nd Advent. 1Cor15. they are talking about the fact that we are to believe that He shall come back. No time frame given...


Part of Christ now... 1 cor 12:12-13

no division between Jew and gentile...no rapture there.


God wrath goes upon earth dwellers... Not himself

​

why would His wrath go on Himself? Why would you say not Himself???

Who was Saul presecuting in Acts 9:4 was this Christ or believers .... both Christ is the Head of the body eph eph 1:22-23 where we are all one connected by the indwelling of God where we get Eternal life upon belief
ok, again what does this have to do with the subject of rapture?

His wrath is for all who fail the test of the antiChrist. Even Christians who fail the test.

So Christ was not faithful to Adam and eve when they repent not.... or did God make them clothing... Gen 3:21

huh? if Adam and Eve repented, then they are forgiven...IMO I'd think that they did when they were given the chance by Jesus, between the crusifixion and the resurrection

When David slept with Uriah's wife Did God kill Him according to the Law! Romans 4:6-8

God punnished him worse than killing him...took his love and his child...and David knew that he was wrong and repented....God chose David for a reason. He is a type to us...murder is not the unforgivable sin even??? following Satan willingly is the unforgivable sin.

So peter who Christ called Satan is not forgiven? Matt 16:23

why do you say that?
I did not say that...

Satan cast his spirit on Peter as it is told...and Christ ordered Satan out. Who mentioned Peter's salvation, why bring that up...you do that kind of thing a lot.




or why does God warn us of Satan 2 cor 2:11

because He loves us...and it is truth.

Who said He does not?
Why this line of thought?
What about this scripture leads us to pre trib rapture?

again, these scriptures seem not to be about our subject.

if God is not mad at you, you could stand in His wrath and it would not harm you at all. And God does not send His wrath until the 144,000 are Gathered together on Mt Zion at the Last(7th) trump.



If anyone who denys the Gospel during our time of grace they will believe the lie... 2 thes 4:9-10 , and be killed during the Great Trib...

pure hollywood....no fact.

those that believe the lie, God has blinded many of them to the truth for their own good...keeps them innocent of the blastpheme that they will soon be guilty of-worshiping Satan as God returned) and the lie is that Jesus comes first to rapture you away....

in reality, Satan is going to come first, and will pretend to be Jesus come to rapture you away( in his good time, when all who will be are ready, lol).

no one will be killed in the tribulation hour. none at all....it is about temptation. either one is marked of the best or one is sealed of God....and Rev9 teaches us that neither can be killed, only hurt...think of it as a spiritual death if they follow this fake Jesus that comes first....Satan comes on the wings of peace

ABIC
Zeke37
ABIC rsponse

Zeke37 ... no response?
​

not enough time in the day....very busy lately..and a bad internet connection.



I am starting to get impatience so I will quit ... for a time...

impatient about what? All I am doing is honestly questioning your pre trib rapture belief, which you teach others about.

I challenge it completely. and the answers that you have given, some are not even about any Gathering to Christ at all...most are not??? the scriptures are about other subjects that somehow you see connected, but you have failed to explain why they are connected, because they certainly are not strait forward and to the point if they are about pre trib rapture!!!

yours is a strange way to study scripture ABIC.


I wanted to keep this friendly...still do..


L8r

in His service
c

 

[garry2]

I agree with zeke37 a very little. But ABIC dosn't understand anything much about what others say, he has little understanding of the english language, but then tries to give english grammar instructions.
Go take a jump ABIC.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

garry2

but even though you argued with me about those 10 verses about departure

you even learn from a red neck hick like me as God instument ... Glory to God

 

[garry2]

garry2

but even though you argued with me about those 10 verses about departure

you even learn from a red neck hick like me as God instument ... Glory to God

I have not learned anything from you, I have agreed with you on things.

You lecture people on things they already know and then give yourself praise in having taught them. Ha ha

 

[A Brother In Christ]

yet you called me names ... and continue to do so

your are impatience , name calling ... is this Christ

Are you not my brother?

 

[garry2]

yet you called me names ... and continue to do so

your are impatience , name calling ... is this Christ

Are you not my brother?

I have not learned anything from you, I have agreed with you on things.

You lecture people on things they already know and then give yourself praise in having taught them. Ha ha

Where is the name calling?