A Problem With The Pre-Tribulational Rapture

[HarrisonS]

Scripture does not teach that we go to heaven while those who are (will be) our brothers sisters IN JESUS are on earth suffering. I thess. 4:14-17 doesn't state that, nor do any of the scriptures above state that. The early church never believed that/ nor taught that because as the bible teaches, we shall remain on this earth (those who survive) until the Second Glorious coming of Jesus----to gather ALL---from heaven and earth---that belong to Him. The early church taught that we would suffer anti-christ's persecution up until Jesus leaves heaven and exercises HIS authority...

I would like to correct a misconception you have about the purpose of the pretribulation rapture. And this misconception seems to be almost universal among posttribulationists. The purpose is NOT to remove the church from persecution. Througout church history, and today, Chrstians have always suffered persecution, often severe, and the church in the last days will be no different.

On the contrary, the rapture will remove the church from God's wrath which He will pour out on the whle earth (Rev. 3:10). When posttribulationists have to resort to straw-man arguments like this, it only serves to show the weakness of their own position!

 

[Terral]

Hi Zeke:

hi there folks, there is no pre trib rapture...it is fantasy of men, and to be a large trick of Satan.

the subject of the scripture is found in verse 13 . . . so, where are the dead today...? they are with Christ in heaven. and what happens to them?

First of all, if you are going to convince me or anyone of anything, then think about eliminating all the question marks (???) from your work and begin addressing ‘the topic’ of this thread. The dead are ‘asleep’ in Christ and they are raised ‘first’ (1Thes. 4:16), when the believers in our gospel put on immortality.

well, clearly, they come back with Christ at the last trump...and are gathered together with the elect on earth....as verses 15-17 say these are the firstfruits...the good to go people... the elect from heaven and from earth....

The ‘good to go’ people? Heh . . . First of all, there is nothing ‘clearly’ about any ‘mystery’ topic. Scripture says,

“For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be CAUGHT UP [harpazo #726] together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.” 1Thessalonians 4:15-17.

The funny part of your post is that you claim our Rapture is “fantasy of men” to be a “large trick of Satan,” but then run straight to the very place in Scripture where Paul describes ‘our’ Rapture. :0) Paul ‘clearly’ states that “Then we who are alive and remain will be CAUGHT UP together with them (the dead) in the clouds to meet the Lord IN THE AIR, and so we shall always be with the Lord.” Just want part of "caught up together with them IN THE CLOUDS to meet the Lord IN THE AIR" are we having trouble understanding? :0) If Zeke’s false premise were correct (mere fantasy), then these verses from the Apostle Paul would not even exist!

so how is it that you think this is at some other time?

Some other time from what? :0) Your premise is that the Rapture of our mystery church is mere fantasy, so ‘timing’ has nothing to do with anything. If the boogie man is a fantasy, then ‘when’ he comes is irrelevant . . .

does Christ come to earth for a flyby with ALL the dead believers, pick up the buch of us, and then return with everyone to heaven???

Yes! Paul writes Timothy, saying,

“The Lord will rescue me from every evil deed, and will bring me safely to HIS HEAVENLY KINGDOM; to Him be the glory forever and ever. Amen.” 2Timothy 4:18.

What part of “His HEAVENLY Kingdom” are we having trouble understanding? :0)

no, not at all. the gospels clearly say that the gathering is after the trib of those last days, not before...and the same language is used as in 1Thes4...

Paul’s descriptions of ‘our’ mystery gathering to the Lord has NOTHING to do with anything happening in Matthew 24. Zeke is willing to ‘assume’ these passages are about the same events to then begin making his ‘fantasy’ statements about what ‘he’ clearly has no clue . . . Paul wrote these Epistles to the Thessalonian Gentiles over a decade ‘before’ the Gospel of Matthew was even written about how the 1000 Year Day of the Lord ‘begins’ with our gathering to the Lord. Christ (Matthew 24) is describing events taking place at the END of the Age some 1000 years LATER at the END of this evil age described in my post above.

But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Christ is describing the gathering of “The Elect” called to God via the “Eternal Gospel” of Revelation 14:6 (diagram = upper right) becoming the inhabitants of the Kingdom of Heaven itself. Our mystery Body of Christ (Church #2) is returning with Christ IN GLORY, according to the ‘clear’ language of Colossians 3:

“Therefore IF you have been raised up with Christ [Eph 2:4-7], keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth. For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, is revealed [Matt. 24:30-31, 25:31-34], then you also will be revealed with Him in glory.” Colossians 3:1-4.

The members of Christ’s Body (that’s us = Church #2) will already be “with the Lord” for the same 1000 Years contained within the Day of the Lord, BEFORE we return WITH HIM in glory in Matthew 24:30-31. Zeke is making the same mistake of the majority of pre, mid-week and post Rapture theorists by connecting ‘our’ Rapture (1Thes. 4:16-17) to the END of the Age events of Matthew 24 taking place 1000 years LATER. To utilize his teaching method: How are ‘we’ to be revealed with Christ in GLORY at His ONLY Glorious return (Matt. 24:30-31) at the END of the Age to be ‘gathered,’ IF we return with Him in glory? :0) The ‘Elect’ of Matthew 24:30-31 are ‘clearly’ not returning with Christ in Glory, which means they represent the members of ‘another’ dispensation under God . . .

same language..and Paul says in 2Thes2 that the gathering to Christ must happen after the son of Perdition claims to be God in Jerusalem and after the church goes apostate.

No sir! Right now you are standing within some of the most difficult verses of Scripture to get right without specific knowledge of God’s Hidden Wisdom for the 'mature' (1Cor 2:6-8) that Peter says many are distorting to ‘their own destruction.’ 2Peter 3:14-16. Paul has already met with the Thessalonians (see 2Thes 2:5) and we are not privy to the information ‘he’ knows is already in their possession. Paul has already gone through the long laundry list of END of the Age events with these Thessalonians, which includes the falling away of Matthew 24:10 (written about later) and the antichrist (son of destruction) appearing at “his time” (2Thes 2:6 = Matt 24:15), which is at the END of the Age some 1000 Years ‘after’ our Rapture. These Thessalonians were disturbed by the fact that men were teaching that the 1000 Year “Day of the Lord” (1Thes. 5:1-2) “has come.” 2Thes. 2:2. These Thessalonians were not seeing any of the END of the Age events connected to Christ’s Olivet Discourse, but they feared the “Day of the Lord” had started without them AND they had missed the Rapture of 1Thes. 4:16-17. :0)

Paul is telling the Thessalonians that the Day of the Lord has not even started, so obviously the END of the Age events are ‘restrained,’ so that "in HIS TIME" he will be revealed.” The reason Paul inserted this bit of “END of the Age” information is because he is about to explain the “Mystery of Iniquity” (2Thes. 2:7-12) that IS at work right this moment (like 2000 years ago in Paul's day) as we speak that ‘does’ parallel those events in shadows (mirror dimly). Those of us with God’s wisdom (Rev. 13:18) 'can' use the Prophetic Timelines to predict events taking place within this 2000 Year Mystery Time (diagram), but only as through a mirror dimly making allowances for the inherent differences between the ‘blood witness’ soul-like shadowy figures to the actual literal ‘water witness’ (diagram) body-like principals of OT and NT ‘Prophecy.’ The antichrist’s ‘literal’ coming takes place in Matthew 24:15 “in his time,” as seen by Daniel (Dan. 11:31, 12:11-13) and as mentioned by Christ Himself during His Olivet Discourse. However, the “Mystery of Iniquity” says there is an antithesis ‘body of antichrist’ to our mystery “Body of Christ” with a myriad of members all around us running around as the “servants of righteousness” serving their ‘angel of light’ (2Cor 11:14-15) fulfilling the END of the Age ‘types’ established by Jesus Christ, the antichrist and their prophetic hosts.

come on now..1Thes4 is about where the dead are, and when they come back...and it is at the last trump, when the elect are all gathered together from both heaven and earth.... no one is going anywhere...

Really? Please forgive if I find nothing convincing in your post about “no one is going anywhere.” :0) You already quoted ‘the truth’ from the Apostle Paul about our mystery church being caught up in the to meet the Lord in the air . . .

see the greek texts (manuscripts) for the definitions and words used in the original writing...instead of relying on a bad english translation.

I am more than happy to dissect and trisect the Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek with anyone here over the truth of any Bible Topic, when you can begin showing that Zeke understands what appears in the regular English. :0) What I see here is a fellow about to transform very clear ‘literal’ language from Paul to these Thessalonians into metaphors to represent his spiritualizing ‘the truth’ out of the Holy Text.

air= spiritual body that all will be changed to at Christ's arrival...(no mistaking that one)...the breath of life body that we all have...spiritual body that Paul describes in 1Cor15, that will be changed at the final trump of God.

Are you being serious? :0) Paul uses the Greek term “aer” (#109) defined as:

Aer = Blue Letter Bible

1) the air, particularly the lower and denser air as distinguished from the higher and rarer air
2) the atmospheric region

This is the same term used in Revelation 9:2 saying, “the sun and the 'air' were darkened . . .” and in Acts 22:23 where they “threw dust into the air.” Paul clarifies himself by using the phrase “in the clouds,” which you attempt to discredit here:

clouds= mass multitude, as in a great cloud of witnesses Heb12.

The Greek term “nephele” (#3507) used by Paul is the same term used twice in Matthew 17:5 to say “a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud . . .” and in Matthew 24:30 where the Son of Man is “coming in the clouds.” This is the same Greek term used in Acts 1:9 to describe how “a cloud received Him out of their sight . . .”. However (Zeke is using trickery), the Hebrews 12 example he cites is “nephos” (#3509) used ONLY in that single verse of Scripture.

dead come with Christ, and are joined together with the elect who are alive at the last trump....and all flesh is changed...

While there is indeed a ‘change’ for the Elect caught up at the END of the Age, ‘our’ mystery translation to immortality takes place 1000 Years earlier when the Day of the Lord is ‘at hand’ (2Thes. 2:2) or when that 1000 Year period BEGINS. The world does NOT see ‘our’ mystery translation to immortality like the Eunuch saw Philip no more.

“When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord snatched [harpazo #726] Philip away; and the eunuch no longer saw him, but went on his way rejoicing.” Acts 8:39.

Perhaps the unbelievers hearing the Eunuch's testimony about Philip's sudden disappearance might be convinced that his experience was mere 'fantasy.' The world might very well go on their way, but without any idea of where the Lord has taken us. :0)

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by zeke37 see the greek texts (manuscripts) for the definitions and words used in the original writing...instead of relying on a bad english translation.

quote Terral:....This is the same term used in Revelation 9:2 saying, “the sun and the 'air' were darkened . . .” and in Acts 22:23 where they “threw dust into the air.” Paul clarifies himself by using the phrase “in the clouds,” which you attempt to discredit here:

Interesting post Terral!!Btw, I noticed 2 different greek words used for dust in the NC.
The one used in Mark 6:11 is only used in one other place, Reve 18:19. Any idea what the difference is between them? Thanks.

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Matthew 10:14 And whosoever no should be receiving ye, nor-yet should be hearing the words of ye, coming out outside of the house or of the city, that, shake off! the dust/koniorton <2868> of thine feet.

Mark 6:11 And who soever should not be receiving ye, nor should be hearing of-ye, departing thence, shake off the dust/soil/coun <5522> the underneath thine feet into a testimony to-them. Amen I say unto ye, it shall be more tolerable to-Sodom or Gomorrha in a day of judgment, the city, that.

Revelation 18:19 And they cast dust/coun <5522> upon their heads, and cried-out, lamenting and mourning, saying, "woe! woe! the City, the great, in which are-rich all those having ships in the sea out of her preciousness! that one hour was desolated. [#5522 used only in Mark 6:11]

2868 koniortos {kon-ee-or-tos'} from the base of 2867 and ornumi (to "rouse") from the base of 2867 and ornumi (to "rouse"); pulverulence (as blown about):--dust.
AV - dust 5; 5
1) raised dust, flying dust 2) dust

5522 choos {kho'-os} from the base of 5494;; n m
AV - dust 2; 2
1) earth dug out, an earth heap 2) dust
http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7164949&page=2
DO NOT WEEP!!!!! The Great City

 

[Terral]

Hi LittleLamb:

That guy in your avatar looks a just a little bit scary. :0) Your question appears a bit off of PaladinGirl’s topic, so I will be brief:

Interesting post Terral!!Btw, I noticed 2 different greek words used for dust in the NC. The one used in Mark 6:11 is only used in one other place, Reve 18:19. Any idea what the difference is between them? Thanks.

You are asking about the difference between “koniortos” (#2868) used five times in Scripture and “chous” (#5522). Both are masculine nouns and can be used interchangeably, as we see in the Synoptic Accounts of Mark 6:11 (chous) and Luke 9:5 (koniortos):

"Any place that does not receive you or listen to you, as you go out from there, shake the “dust” (“chous” #5522) off the soles of your feet for a testimony against them." Mark 6:11.

"And as for those who do not receive you, as you go out from that city, shake the “dust” (“koniortos” #2868) off your feet as a testimony against them." Luke 9:5.

Remember that the principals speaking in all these accounts were communicating in a fisherman’s dialect of the Aramaic common to Peter, John and James Christ’s three key witnesses; and our considerations here are over author and 'original' translator preferences (Aramaic to Greek) by inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Common fishermen took their Aramaic manuscripts to educated scholarly kinds of people like Luke and Paul for translation into the commercial lingo of the day that happened to be Greek. Luke preferred to use the longer term in his Gospel account and Acts, while Mark and John preferred the shorter term in their single use of ‘dust’ for their inspired writings. If you think things over carefully, then “koniortos” seems like too many letters for ‘dust’ or common dirt. The difference is that the koniortos root is a verb (koniao #2867) representing ‘action,’ while the chous counterpart is derived from another masculine noun (cheimon #5494 = derivative of ‘cheo’).

Of the two, koniortos is a fancy way to say ‘dust.’ :0)

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

 

[lastblast]

The New Jerusalem is in heaven and not coming down until after the millenium.

What do you make of this scripture:

"............He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire." Mt. 3:12

compare that passage to Mt. 13:38-43

Then look at II thess. 1:7-10

Do you see anything of interest and any similarities?

Blessings........

 

[HisdaughterJen]

What do you make of this scripture:

"............He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire." Mt. 3:12

compare that passage to Mt. 13:38-43

Then look at II thess. 1:7-10

Do you see anything of interest and any similarities?

Blessings........

Well, you are mixing up the events.

At one point, Jesus appears with those who have fallen asleep in Christ and gathers the Bride PRIOR TO JUDGMENT AND WRATH.

At another point, Christ physically returns with the angels and destroys the evil, leaving the good.

At yet another point at the end of the millenium (end of the age), the devil stirs up yet another army to surround Jerusalem and God steps in and destroys them, leaving the good.

ALL THREE HAVE SCRIPTURAL REFERENCES THAT PROVE when they occur.

 

[Terral]

Hi Jen:

Well, you are mixing up the events. At one point, Jesus appears with those who have fallen asleep in Christ and gathers the Bride PRIOR TO JUDGMENT AND WRATH.

Please offer us Scriptural support for your statement above, because my Bible says nothing like that anywhere. We have an &#8216;Early Rains&#8217; Bride (John 3:29) gathered by John the Baptist, Jesus Christ and the Twelve 2000 years ago (diagram) and a &#8216;Late Rains&#8217; Bride gathered by Elijah when he returns to restore all things (Matt. 17:10-11) as the &#8216;prophet&#8217; of Acts 3:19-26. However, there is no gathering of any Kingdom &#8220;Bride,&#8221; because everyone called to God via the &#8220;Gospel of the Kingdom&#8221; near the END of the Age is martyred by the antichrist (Rev 13) and his Abomination of Desolation (Dan. 11:31, 12:11-13, Matt 24:15). Christ&#8217;s prophecy says,

"Then they will deliver you to tribulation [Matt 24:21], and WILL KILL YOU, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.&#8221; Matthew 24:9.

This is a very important part of END of the Age events, so please follow along, because many people do NOT know the differences between the Prophetic Kingdom &#8220;Bride&#8221; (Church #1) and our Mystery &#8220;Body of Christ&#8221; (Church #2) called to God via Paul&#8217;s &#8220;Word of the Cross&#8221; (Gospel #2) gospel message for today. Nobody has been saved via the &#8220;Gospel of the Kingdom&#8221; for almost 2000 years, but that is the very &#8216;gospel&#8217; that Elijah will be preaching to start the 1000 Year Day of the Lord AFTER our mystery church is Raptured (1Thes. 4:16-17) to START the 1000 year period. The entire 1000 Year Day of the Lord must pass, so only THEN will Christ&#8217;s prophecy be fulfilled that says,

"But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved. This Gospel of the Kingdom [Gospel #1] shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.&#8221; Matthew 24:13-14.

These believers in the &#8220;Gospel of the Kingdom&#8221; are NOT enduring to the END of the Age, because they are all martyred before and during the Great Tribulation. The &#8216;end&#8217; Christ is talking about is the END of their very lives! Peter, John, James and everyone called to God via the &#8220;Gospel of the Kingdom&#8221; 2000 years ago is raised &#8216;with us&#8217; (the Body of Christ) to start the 1000 Year Day of the Lord, but instead of standing inside the Lamb (with us = diagram), they stand on the &#8216;sea of glass&#8217; (Rev. 4:6, 15:2) and sing the &#8220;song of Moses&#8221; representing the &#8220;Kingdom of Priests&#8221; (Rev. 1:6, 5:10) making intercession for everyone joining THEM on the sea of glass throughout the entire 1000 Year Day of the Lord. Scripture says,

&#8220;Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from? I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the GREAT TRIBULATION [Matt 24:21], and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. For this reason, they are BEFORE the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them. They will hunger no longer, nor thirst anymore; nor will the sun beat down on them, nor any heat; for the Lamb in the center of the throne [Body of Christ is IN the Lamb] will be their shepherd, and will guide them to springs of the water of life; and God will wipe every tear from their eyes." Rev 7:14-17.

You see all of these &#8216;water witness&#8217; symbols (diagram) on the Prophetic Kingdom &#8220;Bride,&#8221; because &#8216;priests&#8217; are water witnesses to the prophet (spirit witness) and king (blood witness = diagram = look at David at lower left). Take a good long look at &#8216;this diagram&#8217; again showing how the Late Rains Bride joins Peter, John and James &#8216;before the throne&#8217; to join the &#8216;two groups&#8217; (early and late rains = James 5:7) together into the &#8216;one group&#8217; being prepared to become active participants in the &#8220;Marriage Supper Of The Lamb&#8221; (Rev. 19:5-10), BEFORE both the Bride and Body return with Christ at the END of the Age. Peter&#8217;s Early Rains Bride is joined together with Elijah&#8217;s Late Rains Bride, so they can be joined to the Lamb through the covenant of marriage (fulfilling Hosea 2:19-20). The members of &#8220;Christ&#8217;s BODY&#8221; (that&#8217;s us) have already been baptized into the Lamb (see 1Cor 12:12-14, 27, Gal. 3:27) by obeying our Gospel AND have been ruling with Him from the &#8216;center of the throne&#8217; for the entire 1000 Year Day of the Lord. However, the Kingdom &#8216;Bride,&#8217; saved via the Gospel of the Kingdom, joins us IN Christ (the Lamb), so that we all return with Him in glory (Col. 3:4) at the END of the Age (Matt. 24:30-31) to END the reign of Satan, the Beast and the False Prophet incarnated onto the earth as mere men. Therefore (if you could follow along), there cannot be any &#8216;gathering&#8217; of any Kingdom &#8216;Bride,&#8217; because they return with Christ to gather everyone called via the &#8220;Eternal Gospel&#8221; (Rev. 14:6) heralded ONLY at the END of the Age.

At another point, Christ physically returns with the angels and destroys the evil, leaving the good.

Where? :0) Nothing like that appears in my Bible either. Christ returns to this earth exactly two times [my thread], but only His END of the Age revealing (us with Him) is SEEN by the world, as &#8216;our&#8217; mystery Rapture took place to START the 1000 Year Day of the Lord. Jesus Christ is returning just ONCE with the Mystery Body of Christ (that&#8217;s us = blood witnesses) AND the combined Kingdom &#8220;Bride&#8221; (still water witnesses) and His angels (spirit witnesses) to destroy the unholy trinity AND judge the living and the dead! Christ&#8217;s return is described in Zechariah 14:1-6, until the prophesied Judgment begins:

"But when the Son of Man comes in His glory [Matt 24:30-31], and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.&#8221; Matthew 25:31-34.

By this time the 1000 Year Day of the Lord (diagram) is OVER and we (Body of Christ) appear with Christ IN GLORY (Col. 3:4) to judge the living (from verses above) and the dead (Rev. 20:11-15). There is no leaving any &#8216;good,&#8217; because &#8220;ALL the nations&#8221; are gathered before Him for the final END of the Age Judgment leading up to the New Heaven and New Earth of Revelation 21:1+. The interpretation saying that Christ is returning to set up a temporary 1000 Year Kingdom is A MYTH with no basis in Biblical reality at all.

At yet another point at the end of the millenium (end of the age), the devil stirs up yet another army to surround Jerusalem and God steps in and destroys them, leaving the good.

No! Please try to support your assertions using Scripture! :0) Satan (the dragon) and his boy-child Beast (antichrist) and their False Prophet (their water witness priest) reek havoc in the earth for the &#8216;short time&#8217; (Rev. 12:12, 20:3-7) that ends THIS evil age. There is only ONE &#8220;END of the Age&#8221; and that event corresponds to Christ&#8217;s glorious return (see Matt. 24:3 again) and His judgment of the Living and the Dead! The typical professing Bible expert fails to realize that Revelation 20 is an &#8216;overview&#8217; of the entire 1000 Year Day of the Lord from Satan&#8217;s perspective where he is chained (Rev. 20:2) way back in Revelation 1:10 by the &#8216;voice of the Archangel&#8217; (1Thes. 4:16) connected to &#8216;our&#8217; trumpet (1Cor 15:52) 'beginning' 1000 Year Day of the Lord! Satan is only released from his prison AFTER the 1000 Years is &#8216;over&#8217; . . .

&#8220;When the thousand years ARE COMPLETED (advanced diagram), Satan will be released from his prison, and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore.&#8221; Revelation 20:7-8.

There is only a single 1000 Year Day of the Lord and Satan is chained for the 'entire' 1000 Years to be released 'only' after those 1000 Years are over. The Dragon, Beast and False Prophet are all working TOGETHER (see Rev 13 again) before, during and after the Great Tribulation, until we return with Christ in glory (Matt. 24:30-31) to chuck all three witnesses of the unholy trinity (Satan, Beast, False Prophet) into the lake of fire (Rev. 19:20, 20:10). Many people invent &#8216;two&#8217; ENDS of the Age, because they interpret the meaning of Revelation 20 incorrectly and fail to realize Satan is chained to START the 1000 Year Day of the Lord. Many of the same people incorrectly assume that Christ is returning at the END of the Age to set up a temporary 1000 Year Kingdom for the same reason, when He is the Lord and HEAVEN is His Throne with the earth (this visible universe) being His footstool (Isa. 66:1 = my thread).

ALL THREE HAVE SCRIPTURAL REFERENCES THAT PROVE when they occur.

Really? Where? :0) Your mission (if you choose to accept it) is to quote God&#8217;s Word to support your theories and to give us a paragraph or two of meaningful &#8216;rightly divided&#8217; (2Tim. 2:15) commentary showing where your &#8216;Bride&#8217; is gathered and Christ &#8216;leaves the good&#8217; and the devil stirs up &#8216;yet another army&#8217; for &#8216;two&#8217; ENDS of the Age. Good luck . . .

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

 

[zeke37]

Zeke37:
the 144,000 are NOT ALL JEWS, only 12,000 are (read it for yourself) but are comprised mainly of the scattered tribes, who crossed the Caucusis mountains and settled much of Europe....became the Christian nations of today. the elect shall come out of ALL 12 tribes, not just ONE tribe.



The 144,000 are all Hebrews. There are 12,000 from each tribe. (Many people, myself included, loosely use the word “Jews” to refer to all of the twelve tribes; I will try to be more specific in the future)

no problem....many use the word "jew" to describe both houses (Judah and Israel), a process that leads to confusion.

There are no Gentiles among the 144,000, as you seem to be saying.

no, I am not saying that.

It appears here that you are espousing British Israelism, a cultic teaching once promoted by Herbert W. Armstrong and his “Worldwide Church of God”.

I personally don't care who is promoting what, but I do agree that the Northern tribes migrated into peoples and nations, mainly of Europe...including the british Isles. God defines who they are and were and have become. There are just no other peoples who they could be...

British Israelites taught that the European nations were descended from various tribes from among the 10 “lost” tribes of Israel. This view was never taken seriously by any respected historian, and has long ago been thoroughly discredited.

sure it has been taken seriously...archeology proves this to be true...e. raymond capp for one.

the "lost tribes" were scattered into the general population and have become the Christian nations of today...basically.

so there are many who are called gentile, that are not, but are of those lost tribes.....direct descendants, known by other names...



Zeke37:
5 of the 7 church systems are corrupt in the end times as Rev2-3 teach. but the 2 that are good are seen in Rev11 against the beast (2 candlesticks)....as the rest (the other 5) are apostate and follow the beast, be it in ignorance...

Rev. 2 and 3 contain critiques of seven churches as they existed in the first century when Revelation was written. I do not believe that these chapters have any eschatological significance whatsoever.

well, I certainly do...it ios the revelation of Christ to us, and understanding when andf where John went to receive his vision, may shed light on that fact. He was taken to the Lord's Day, and saw the events around then...before and after...

these letters are within that time period...

so I see a definite prophetic link to them


Zeke37:
air/spirit in the Hebrew is Ruach (I'm sure you know what that means)
and many times in Greek it is Pneuma (pneumatic tires) but sometimes aer is used in example and symbolism. All can mean air that we breath, the wind, or the spirit beit man's or God's, depending on the verse.

Paul uses aer here in I Thes. 4:17. As used ih the NT, it just means “air” and little more. (See Acts 22:23, I Cor. 9:26, 14:9; Rev. 9:2, etc.)

wow, seriously?

trump/blast/Spirit, spirit, spirit body, unseeable forse...many things that air is used for...and yes, sometimes it is used of the air we breath.

couple the air body (breath of life body) with that of 1Cor15...

Zeke37:
and God is against the pre trib rapture theory...as Ez13 states.


LOL. You are really begging the question here, aren’t you! Ezekiel 13 says nothing at all about the rapture!


God is against those peple who teach His children to fly to save their souls.

This passage addresses false prophets, period.

which the rapture is part of....God even goes into a little detail, describing fales hope fales religion....fales prophets preying on christians

First of all, we are not even speaking about prophesying. Prophesying has to do with the speaking forth of new revelation directly from God.

not so alone...prophesy is also reading the Word of God...telling His prophesies to others...

Nobody is doing that here! Second, you are using Ezekiel 13 as a “one size fits all” passage; a pretribulationist could equally well apply this to you!

I do not teach God's children to fly to save their souls as pre trib does?


I will not comment on the rest of your discussion. It seems to be largely a lot of emotional ranting with very little substance. In other words, there is a lot of heat and not much light.

well, I've been in pre trib, and I am ever greatful for not being there anymore...

It looks like you are on the right track with your study tools, but you really need to invest in some good commentaries rather than running amok through the Bible.

the commentary of man? I'd prefer the Word...not that you don't....but I know what you mean.

Every good teacher and preacher relies heavily on the scholarship of others.

Well I'll give ya that...who do you trust? I do not find value in many of the mainstream teachers.

We “stand on the shoulders of those who have gone before”. By yourself, like Humpty Dumpty you don’t seem to be able to put the pieces together correctly.

huh? why because I disagree with your view? Perhaps it is not I that needs to fit the pieces together?



The more you say, the more you prove the points that I made in my earlier post!

I must have missed that one....I will not rely on any man, without checking him/her out both biblically and scholastically....

....and if you wish we could continue...but you may not want to...


in His service
c

 

[lastblast]

I would like to correct a misconception you have about the purpose of the pretribulation rapture. And this misconception seems to be almost universal among posttribulationists. The purpose is NOT to remove the church from persecution. Througout church history, and today, Chrstians have always suffered persecution, often severe, and the church in the last days will be no different.

On the contrary, the rapture will remove the church from God's wrath which He will pour out on the whle earth (Rev. 3:10). When posttribulationists have to resort to straw-man arguments like this, it only serves to show the weakness of their own position!

But the problem the pre-trib rapturists have is reconciling all the passages that say those who are IN CHRIST (and Jesus already knows all who are His----past, present, and future) are NOT appointed to wrath. You have people who WILL BE in Christ receiving God's Wrath. So one either has to show there are NO believers at all on the earth during a time of wrath, the believers are on earth (but protected), Or the wrath doesn't come until His Body is completed and THEN His wrath comes upon ALL those who do not, nor ever will, belong to Him.

I really like that "straw man argument" comment. Seems I see it used quite often----especially when someone does not have a real answer for real questions. I guess for some, it's easy to hurl that type of accusation instead of answering/or trying to answer something seriously brought forth.

Truly, unless you can pinpoint the exact time when there will no longer be ANY believers in Christ Jesus upon the earth, you cannot possibly state as fact that God's Wrath is poured out during a time when many pre-tribbers state people will be coming to faith in Jesus. That teaching does not add up when one looks at the entirety of God's Word concerning those who will be saved---by faith, through Grace.

 

[lastblast]

Well, you are mixing up the events.

At one point, Jesus appears with those who have fallen asleep in Christ and gathers the Bride PRIOR TO JUDGMENT AND WRATH.

At another point, Christ physically returns with the angels and destroys the evil, leaving the good.

At yet another point at the end of the millenium (end of the age), the devil stirs up yet another army to surround Jerusalem and God steps in and destroys them, leaving the good.

ALL THREE HAVE SCRIPTURAL REFERENCES THAT PROVE when they occur.

I believe scripture teaches they are all one and the same event, Jen. When Jesus comes (at His Second Advent) we have plenty of scripture which tells us that His angels gather----the good.........from heaven and earth (Mt. 24:30-31, Mk. 13:27, I Thess. 4:14-17, II Thess. 2:1) and the "good" wheat are taken to His barn (Mt. 3)............and the evil are gathered and burned. Pre-trib has Jesus coming early to gather "some" of the wheat..........and then "burning" even that wheat which is very young...........the ones that have been sown in Good ground, but has not grown up yet.

 

[garry2]

the commentary of man? I'd prefer the Word...


in His service
c

You do not prefer the Word who says:

Genesis 4
1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.

But you do beleive man who says:
satan and eve came together and Eve bare cain.

And Genesis could not be more specific, Adam knew Eve, Eve conceived and cain was born.

Shows the depth of your being deceived.

 

[HarrisonS]

Truly, unless you can pinpoint the exact time when there will no longer be ANY believers in Christ Jesus upon the earth, you cannot possibly state as fact that God's Wrath is poured out during a time when many pre-tribbers state people will be coming to faith in Jesus. That teaching does not add up when one looks at the entirety of God's Word concerning those who will be saved---by faith, through Grace.

Actually I can pinpoint a time, in the posttribulation view, that is! When the rapture takes place, all believers will be removed from the earth. Also all non-believers will also be removed in judgment - both of Israel (Ezek. 20:38, Matt. 24:40,41) and of the Gentiles (Matt. 25:41-46a) where they will await the Great White Throne judgment after the 1000 years. Thus, there would be no one left on earth to repopulate it during the millenium! But we know that the unbelievers alone will number as the "sand of the sea" (Rev. 20:7-9)! Where will all those people come from? This is a HUGE problem for the posttribulationist!

The rapture HAS to take place before (pretrib) or at least during (mid trib) the tribulation. The Millennium will be repopulated by tribulation believers and their descendants. These will both come from Israel (Ezek. 20:37) and the Gentiles (Matt. 25:34-40). Remember that resurrected believers cannot reproduce (Matt. 22:30). The only way to make the whole thing work would be to get rid of Israel and the Millennium, i.e., adopt replacement theology and amillennialism. And we have already proven both of those views to be totally unbiblical in other threads. Indeed, to disprove both of those views is a real "slam-dunk"!


During the tribulation, God will provide protection of believers from His wrath (Isa. 26:20-21). Of course, many will be martyred for their faith (Rev. 20:4), but that is man's wrath, not God's.

 

[HarrisonS]

I must have missed that one....I will not rely on any man, without checking him/her out both biblically and scholastically....

....and if you wish we could continue...but you may not want to...


in His service
c

It is very commendable, that you want to check out your sources carefully to verify that they are correct biblically and scholastically, and we all need to do just that. Unfortunately, it is painfully obvious that you are not! One example is you belief in a view like British Israelism. This is lunatic-fringe stuff that is grist for the tabloids, and would be ridiculed by any anthropologist, archaeologist or historian.

It seems that you have fallen victim to the malady of our age: the exaltation of the individual's opinion over knowledge, fact and reason. People are lazy and do not want to make the effort to learn anything. I have been to too many "Bible studies" where the participants get together and share their ignorance, and each person is convinced that his/her opinion is ultimate truth. Interestingly, secular people have a colorful name for this sort of thing, and its initials do not stand for Bachelor of Science!

The Bible warns against this kind of mind set, i.e., where a person has no interest in learning anything, but only in spouting off their opinion (Proverbs 18:2). The root of this kind of thing is pride (Proverbs 13:10). If you will excuse my candor, I think that at times your posts sound like the ravings of a lunatic. I believe that you have a serious problem of pride and that is why you keep running amok through the Bible. You need a generous dose of humility, plus the diligence to learn a lot of things that you do not know yet.

 

[zeke37]

It is very commendable, that you want to check out your sources carefully to verify that they are correct biblically and scholastically, and we all need to do just that. Unfortunately, it is painfully obvious that you are not! One example is you belief in a view like British Israelism. This is lunatic-fringe stuff that is grist for the tabloids, and would be ridiculed by any anthropologist, archaeologist or historian.

again, I could care les who believes what....I find merrit with BI for many reasons...traditons of Scotland-gloustenbury(sp), clothing, archaeological finds...and even biblical historical study with the princess Scota.

but I will not define BI as my understanding because I did not place the title on that belief, and it does not fully represent what I believe...but there is merrit to it for sure...

I realize that some believe it and some do not...but it is not refuted by, as you say, ALL...(since when has the majority been right anyway?)

It seems that you have fallen victim to the malady of our age: the exaltation of the individual's opinion over knowledge, fact and reason.

or you have...na na, na na, na na...lol

People are lazy and do not want to make the effort to learn anything. I have been to too many "Bible studies" where the participants get together and share their ignorance, and each person is convinced that his/her opinion is ultimate truth. Interestingly, secular people have a colorful name for this sort of thing, and its initials do not stand for Bachelor of Science!

seems that any of us could be thrown into that catagory right? unless that is that you are the only one that is right! lol,.

The Bible warns against this kind of mind set, i.e., where a person has no interest in learning anything, but only in spouting off their opinion (Proverbs 18:2). The root of this kind of thing is pride (Proverbs 13:10).

huh/ are you accusing me of something? Who be the accuser?

If you will excuse my candor, I think that at times your posts sound like the ravings of a lunatic.

well, truth will do that...it cuts both ways...if you are into traditional beliefs, I expect that you would find offense in my posts....so be it. if you feel that you need to be nasty, go for it....I have a thick skin....

I believe that you have a serious problem of pride and that is why you keep running amok through the Bible.

pardon me? study to show yourself approved...

You need a generous dose of humility, plus the diligence to learn a lot of things that you do not know yet.

hmmm, perhaps you could say that to yourself infront of a mirror while you are digging the log from your eye! Just because one disagrees with you, does not neccessarily make them wrong and you right! your own words teach that the correctness is in the eye of the owner....

my reasons for being here are honest and genuine...plant seeds, let God grow em! You have called me names and been rather unChristian in attitude...


pray about it


in His service
c

 

[HarrisonS]

...my reasons for being here are honest and genuine...plant seeds, let God grow em! You have called me names and been rather unChristian in attitude...

Your reasons for being here may be honest and genuine, or maybe not, but your approach to the interpretation of scripture has at best been reckless and irresponsible, and at worst dishonest - God knows your true motives and intentions. Unfortunately, you present mindset seems to be like that mentioned in Proverbs 26:12. In any case, I believe that God will hold you responsible for anyone you mislead through erroneous teachings.

It is painfully obvious to anyone with formal education in Bible related subjects that sometimes you haven't got a clue as to what you are talking about. The more you say, the more you prove what I said in my earlier post!

I haven't called you "names"; I was only trying to exhort you to a more intelligent and responsible approach to Biblical interpretation. You are however, I believe, what Proverbs call a "scorner" (Prov. 9:7-8, Prov. 15:12), and your reaction is predictable. I stand behind everything I said in my previous post. We call them as we see them!

 

[DeaconDean]

Well I guess the angels lied to the disciples in Acts 1:9-11 when they were told that as He went away, He would return in the same fashion.

I guess Jesus did ascend up into heaven "inflaming fire taking vengence," (cf. 2 Thes. 1:7-8) and Jesus did ascend up into heaven riding upon a "white horse." (cf Rev. 19:11)

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[garry2]

Your reasons for being here may be honest and genuine, or maybe not, but your approach to the interpretation of scripture has at best been reckless and irresponsible, and at worst dishonest - God knows your true motives and intentions. Unfortunately, you present mindset seems to be like that mentioned in Proverbs 26:12. In any case, I believe that God will hold you responsible for anyone you mislead through erroneous teachings.

It is painfully obvious to anyone with formal education in Bible related subjects that sometimes you haven't got a clue as to what you are talking about.

Or even to persons with not so formal education in Bible related subjects.

The more you say, the more you prove what I said in my earlier post!

I haven't called you "names"; I was only trying to exhort you to a more intelligent and responsible approach to Biblical interpretation. You are however, I believe, what Proverbs call a "scorner" (Prov. 9:7-8, Prov. 15:12), and your reaction is predictable. I stand behind everything I said in my previous post. We call them as we see them!

I think scorner is mild for zeke37.

 

[HarrisonS]

I think scorner is mild for zeke37.

I tend to agree with you! He does not seem to appreciate the fact that Bible interpretation is an exacting science. Fortunately, his wild statements tend to be self-impeaching!

 

[zeke37]

to each their own....

why don't we pick a subject and follow it through then? see who follows what?

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

I have been reading your posts, and your eschatology is interesting but somewhat confusing. Could you please spell out in simplicity what you believe the biblical timeline is? If there was a few all-encompassing theological words to describe your beliefs, what would they be? Thanks