A philosophical accounting of "Satan's little helpers" (i.e. Marketers)

2PhiloVoid

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I'll just state it up front: This thread is about the primed (and provocative) philosophy that informs both historically and presently the fields of marketing and advertising. What follows is a TED talk video with Sean Dromgoole, and he speaks about the whys and wherefores of how marketers (and I guess just about anyone who wants to capitalize on your personal lack of inhibition) ply their trade to ply you with their mental influence and then pry you from your money (or your moral integrity).

Disclaimer: I'm in no way saying I advocate what the speaker says, how he says it, or what he states is 'good practice.' I don't. I simply don't. In fact, when I was young, I left behind a potential career in advertising and commercial design/graphic arts ... because of the philosophical pretensions that I realized could be involved with this line of work.

So, listen in on what Sean Dromgoole has to say and then we can discuss and debate it. I will, of course, take a more or less CHRISTIAN approach when doing so, one laced with Christian ethical evaluations taken from the field of Ethics/Christian Ethics.

Here we go!!!! (And don't say I didn't warn you about the philosophical deliberation that sits in the middle of this whole topic. Good Luck!!!!)

 
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Northbrook

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Hi, 2PhiloVoid,

Dig this: I owe my salvation to marketing. I’ll bet you’ve never heard that one before! I was 26 and a seeker. Every evening on the Evanston “El” train on my way home from work, the train would make a long stop at Davis St. Looking out the train window, I would always see a large rectangular sign on the 2nd floor of a storefront. It read, “VINEYARD CHRISTIAN FELLOWSHIP.”

Christian fellowship, I thought. That is what I would like added to my life...I had tried going back to the church of my childhood, and had been very bored. But this sign didn’t use the word “church.”

SO I TRIED IT. I tried it, and I loved it, and I became a member, and I am a saved person today because some marketer changed the word “church” to “Christian fellowship.” Long live marketing!
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Hi, 2PhiloVoid,

Dig this: I owe my salvation to marketing. I’ll bet you’ve never heard that one before! I was 26 and a seeker. Every evening on the Evanston “El” train on my way home from work, the train would make a long stop at Davis St. Looking out the train window, I would always see a large rectangular sign on the 2nd floor of a storefront. It read, “VINEYARD CHRISTIAN FELLOWSHIP.”

Christian fellowship, I thought. That is what I would like added to my life...I had tried going back to the church of my childhood, and had been very bored. But this sign didn’t use the word “church.”

SO I TRIED IT. I tried it, and I loved it, and I became a member, and I am a saved person today because some marketer changed the word “church” to “Christian fellowship.” Long live marketing!

Thanks for the great response and testimony, Northbrook! I think it's great that the church you ended up being saved through was able to appeal to you and by changing just one word in their sign, they touched your mind and heart and drew you closer to Christ. I too think that churches might want to lean away from using the word church in their corporate identifications to the outside world. The only thing is, we still have to wrestle with the meaning(s) of the term, "church," whenever we open our New Testaments, so we can't fully escape it.

Of course, in reflecting further upon what it seems I might be saying in my OP, you can see that I've also used a form of 'marketing' to draw some attention to this topic. To some extent, men and women in general use various techniques to try to draw attention to themselves (...and we hope it's positive, relationally constructive attention). So, I'm in no way trying to say that marketing should be scrubbed out of society. Rather, I'd say more specifically that we all might be more mindful of how marketers do market those items that might not be in our best interest to buy or use or invest ourselves in.

As I'm sure you know, it comes down much of the time to a matter of discernment. And this kind of thing takes practice, doesn't it? I mean, how many of us can say that we "bought into" something at some time of our lives, not knowing what it was we were really doing or the full nature of what we bought into. Sometimes, this even becomes the case with going to church; and it has been the case for me, unfortunately, with a handful of churches and their (supposed) fellow-shipping Christians.

But, I really am very happy to hear that some form of marketing has been used by at least one church in honor of the Lord. And with you, I'll say "Hallelujah, Sister!" :oldthumbsup:
 
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zephcom

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I'll just state it up front: This thread is about the primed (and provocative) philosophy that informs both historically and presently the fields of marketing and advertising. What follows is a TED talk video with Sean Dromgoole, and he speaks about the whys and wherefores of how marketers (and I guess just about anyone who wants to capitalize on your personal lack of inhibition) ply their trade to ply you with their mental influence and then pry you from your money.

Disclaimer: I'm in no way saying I advocate what the speaker says, how he says it, or what he states is 'good practice.' I don't. I simply don't. In fact, when I was young, I left behind a potential career in advertising and commercial design/graphic arts ... because of the philosophical pretensions that I realized could be involved with this line of work.

So, listen in on what Sean Dromgoole has to say and then we can discuss and debate it. I will, of course, take a more or less CHRISTIAN approach when doing so, as well as one laced with many references and allusions as best I can to the field of Ethics/Christian Ethics.

Here we go!!!! (And don't say I didn't warn you about the philosophical deliberation that sits in the middle of this whole topic. Good Luck!!!!)



<chuckle> My first thought after I watched the video (BTW, I do enjoy Ted Talks) is that perhaps marketing is not doing something new but taking a thousand + year old tactic of organized Christianity..."We will offer you a free gift, all you have to is hand us control of your eternal soul".

Another thought, Marketing understands more about how to motivate people than anyone else on the planet. And they are willing to spend tons and tons of effort using that knowledge to strip each of us of all the money we possess and all that we hope to possess.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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<chuckle> My first thought after I watched the video (BTW, I do enjoy Ted Talks) is that perhaps marketing is not doing something new but taking a thousand + year old tactic of organized Christianity..."We will offer you a free gift, all you have to is hand us control of your eternal soul".
I'm glad you enjoyed the Ted Talk, zephcom. I'm a moderate fan myself. As for your comment here about Christianity I'd say, "Sure!" I've thought the same thing about it, and on more than one occasion, and on more than one level.

Another thought, Marketing understands more about how to motivate people than anyone else on the planet. And they are willing to spend tons and tons of effort using that knowledge to strip each of us of all the money we possess and all that we hope to possess.
Yes, and I'm guessing that's why Jesus and His Apostles spent time discussing how we need to "watch out" for various persons with polished halos and slick licking tongues who would come along to fleece us "in the name of God and/or of Christ." As you know, not everyone pays attention to those warnings. Of course, they don't often pay attention to the warnings on Opioid bottles either. :dontcare:
 
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com7fy8

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Below is a mix of things from the video along with things I share.

It seems he might be saying that marketing can be an art of convincing someone to get or do something because you are being payed to promote that thing.

Marketing can make something seem so desirable, this year, but next year it isn't desirable . . . because the marketer is being payed to sell something else!

Marketing can be not about basic and lasting values, but getting us to know more about something so we want it.

What they can do is try to make a product seem like it will give you something they already know you value and want. They try to make it known by making the product seem to keep company with what you value, so it is known supposedly by the company it keeps, but this is like how a narcissist can get trust and praise, by associating oneself with something which people already value and trust.

Marketing can get you to think you know the product, when really you do not . . . maybe like how we can choose a companion, then discover how the person really is. There can be a lot of marketing going on in our thinking, then, without our really knowing.

So, yes, a number of us can fool our own selves without help!!

But marketing can help us to do this.

The Bible clearly says, "be content with such things as you have," in Hebrews 13:5. But marketing can come along, and like the devil did with Adam and Eve, get you to feel that you do not have enough, and decide that what you have with God is not good enough.

Knowledge used to come from people with position of authority. Now the knowledge can be through peer influence, without authority.

Peers can get people to smoke; so yes peer influence can be effective even to get people to do what can hurt themselves and waste a lot of their money and health.

Marketing can seek to reach the ones who have what the marketer wants . . . the ones who have money . . . or votes . . . or other stuff. Marketing can tell someone what he or she wants to hear, and maybe pick and choose what the person is told.

A bank marketer might tell me it is free to open an account, and I do not have to have a minimum balance. But the person might not tell me that every transaction will have a fee, or something like that.

"How do you make money, then?"

"We're just trying to help."

hmm

He is saying that marketing has been just making claims about something, but now ones will give you something to get you interacting and conversing about the thing.

samples :)

A sample can get more attention. And we see how President Trump keeps getting attention, including by using Tweets.

So, I think if we are honest with God and not seeking to use people, it will be hard for people to use us . . . while we ourselves are not interested in taking advantage of anyone.

Love does not have us only using anyone.

And if we are busy with loving, it will be hard for people to get our attention to what is less than our sharing with God and loving as His family. Plus, we can pray and obey how God guides us and our attention.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Below is a mix of things from the video along with things I share.

It seems he might be saying that marketing can be an art of convincing someone to get or do something because you are being payed to promote that thing.

Marketing can make something seem so desirable, this year, but next year it isn't desirable . . . because the marketer is being payed to sell something else!

Marketing can be not about basic and lasting values, but getting us to know more about something so we want it.

What they can do is try to make a product seem like it will give you something they already know you value and want. They try to make it known by making the product seem to keep company with what you value, so it is known supposedly by the company it keeps, but this is like how a narcissist can get trust and praise, by associating oneself with something which people already value and trust.

Marketing can get you to think you know the product, when really you do not . . . maybe like how we can choose a companion, then discover how the person really is. There can be a lot of marketing going on in our thinking, then, without our really knowing.

So, yes, a number of us can fool our own selves without help!!

But marketing can help us to do this.

The Bible clearly says, "be content with such things as you have," in Hebrews 13:5. But marketing can come along, and like the devil did with Adam and Eve, get you to feel that you do not have enough, and decide that what you have with God is not good enough.

Knowledge used to come from people with position of authority. Now the knowledge can be through peer influence, without authority.

Peers can get people to smoke; so yes peer influence can be effective even to get people to do what can hurt themselves and waste a lot of their money and health.

Marketing can seek to reach the ones who have what the marketer wants . . . the ones who have money . . . or votes . . . or other stuff. Marketing can tell someone what he or she wants to hear, and maybe pick and choose what the person is told.

A bank marketer might tell me it is free to open an account, and I do not have to have a minimum balance. But the person might not tell me that every transaction will have a fee, or something like that.

"How do you make money, then?"

"We're just trying to help."

hmm

He is saying that marketing has been just making claims about something, but now ones will give you something to get you interacting and conversing about the thing.

samples :)

A sample can get more attention. And we see how President Trump keeps getting attention, including by using Tweets.

So, I think if we are honest with God and not seeking to use people, it will be hard for people to use us . . . while we ourselves are not interested in taking advantage of anyone.

Love does not have us only using anyone.

And if we are busy with loving, it will be hard for people to get our attention to what is less than our sharing with God and loving as His family. Plus, we can pray and obey how God guides us and our attention.

Well said, com7fy8! Very well said. I think the following comment you've made is particularly relevant:

Marketing can get you to think you know the product, when really you do not . . . maybe like how we can choose a companion, then discover how the person really is. There can be a lot of marketing going on in our thinking, then, without our really knowing.

Would you say, then, as the Serpent spun his web of deceit when speaking with Eve in the Garden of Eden, he was 'marketing/advertising'? Or is marketing something a little different but related to that?
 
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com7fy8

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Would you say, then, as the Serpent spun his web of deceit when speaking with Eve in the Garden of Eden, he was 'marketing/advertising'? Or is marketing something a little different but related to that?
They can be similar or the same. Satan was saying Adam and Eve did not have enough with God and so they needed to do what Satan said.

Like this, ones in worldly marketing can be saying we do not have enough without something and we need to get what they are selling. They do not say, "be content with such things as you have" (in Hebrews 13:5).

But > I think preaching the cross of Christ is a right kind of marketing, letting us know we need Jesus. And there could be the right kind of marketing to let us know there is something available which can be good for us.

And our Father does give "us richly all things to enjoy." (in 1 Timothy 6:17); so there might be things He would want us to know about, for our enjoyment.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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They can be similar or the same. Satan was saying Adam and Eve did not have enough with God and so they needed to do what Satan said.
So, you're saying that Satan was attempting to get Eve and Adam to do something that they didn't really NEED to do? Would that be an accurate assessment of what you're saying here?

Like this, ones in worldly marketing can be saying we do not have enough without something and we need to get what they are selling. They do not say, "be content with such things as you have" (in Hebrews 13:5).
So, maybe there is something similar to the Serpent's methodology and intent in the way modern marketers are employing their praxis to "make the sale"? Did you by chance catch the which philosophers the speaker in the video presents as the archetypical thinkers of this kind of philosophical approach?

But > I think preaching the cross of Christ is a right kind of marketing, letting us know we need Jesus. And there could be the right kind of marketing to let us know there is something available which can be good for us.
That could be. So, might marketing be a neutral method of gaining attention for a product or service, and its actual essence will depend upon the underlying intentions?

And our Father does give "us richly all things to enjoy." (in 1 Timothy 6:17); so there might be things He would want us to know about, for our enjoyment.
Perhaps, but Jesus did use a lot of parables that weren't so clear. How good of a marketing approach is that?
 
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com7fy8

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So, you're saying that Satan was attempting to get Eve and Adam to do something that they didn't really NEED to do? Would that be an accurate assessment of what you're saying here?
This is included. They certainly did not need something which God told them not to have or do, I would say.

But there's nothing wrong with having more than what we absolutely need to have. But Satan was also trying to get them to doubt God.

Did you by chance catch the which philosophers the speaker in the video presents as the archetypical thinkers of this kind of philosophical approach?
n:)

might marketing be a neutral method of gaining attention for a product or service, and its actual essence will depend upon the underlying intentions?
And there is the issue of what approach and methods are used. It would be good and right only to advertise what really can be good for people, and to make it clear what something really has to offer. But, yes, the good can be simply enjoyment.

Jesus did use a lot of parables that weren't so clear. How good of a marketing approach is that?
Since Jesus was committing His message to how the Holy Spirit could make things clear, that was good :) Also, it drew attention, even if no one ever were to figure a parable out. Parables get interest, attention :)
 
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com7fy8

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And don't say I didn't warn you about the philosophical deliberation that sits in the middle of this whole topic.
I just thought of something which I am not aware that anyone else has brought out. But ones may have, or maybe in different words.

I can see how advertising can try to get people to have all the same interests and values so that the marketer can reach everyone with one approach for one product design. But each of us is a unique individual; so we need to pray and see what is really right for each of us, and in case we buy something that others are buying, get it for the reason which fits with us and not let others clone us to want what supposedly everyone else needs or likes.

Cars can be designed in a one-size-fits-all way, more or less, given though that we can pay for customization. But if they make a certain design, they might not be trying to please people on an individual basis, and so they might try to teach a group of people to all like a certain model and feel that is what they need and want.

And yet are they really giving us what we need? There can be a lot of fancy stuff which is said to be for a bargain price, when they could have made a much more simple design for less than half the price and it is more safe and you won't total the car by having a little bump on the rear light. So, there can be deflection from dealing with what might be the most safe and strong and fuel efficient car, deflecting people to be noticing how they are getting all those expensive unnecessary items for a bargain reduction of a hundred dollars, when they could have a safe efficient comfortable car with extra frame strength weight, instead of the major expense and weight of complicated wiring and computer stuff and radios and decorative material whose weight could instead be in the framing and perhaps special springs to cushion between the riders and the chassis.

And then next year they make a different design and claim this is what great numbers of us should all like, together . . . when some number of us should want a generic-safe-efficient vehicle, and possibly the color needs to be yellow or white or something else distinct, so our colors do not blend in with the road or the dusk's shadowed surroundings. I have seen how numerous cars have colors which do not stand out from the road and especially shadowed surroundings; but people have been trained to want cars which do not stand out, so they do not look too different from other people > conformity has been trained into people, I suppose this means.

But God did not make all our faces the same design. And it's interesting how a person can fall in love with someone who looks so different than anyone else, and then never want another :) Of course, hopefully one is not falling only for what someone looks like; but possibly God has us looking different so we can readily identify the one we are committed to.

But marketing can have us feeling we need to keep moving from one thing or person to another. Enough is never enough.

So, at least we still have love available, and love is free :)
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I just thought of something which I am not aware that anyone else has brought out. But ones may have, or maybe in different words.

I can see how advertising can try to get people to have all the same interests and values so that the marketer can reach everyone with one approach for one product design. But each of us is a unique individual; so we need to pray and see what is really right for each of us, and in case we buy something that others are buying, get it for the reason which fits with us and not let others clone us to want what supposedly everyone else needs or likes.

Cars can be designed in a one-size-fits-all way, more or less, given though that we can pay for customization. But if they make a certain design, they might not be trying to please people on an individual basis, and so they might try to teach a group of people to all like a certain model and feel that is what they need and want.

And yet are they really giving us what we need? There can be a lot of fancy stuff which is said to be for a bargain price, when they could have made a much more simple design for less than half the price and it is more safe and you won't total the car by having a little bump on the rear light. So, there can be deflection from dealing with what might be the most safe and strong and fuel efficient car, deflecting people to be noticing how they are getting all those expensive unnecessary items for a bargain reduction of a hundred dollars, when they could have a safe efficient comfortable car with extra frame strength weight, instead of the major expense and weight of complicated wiring and computer stuff and radios and decorative material whose weight could instead be in the framing and perhaps special springs to cushion between the riders and the chassis.

And then next year they make a different design and claim this is what great numbers of us should all like, together . . . when some number of us should want a generic-safe-efficient vehicle, and possibly the color needs to be yellow or white or something else distinct, so our colors do not blend in with the road or the dusk's shadowed surroundings. I have seen how numerous cars have colors which do not stand out from the road and especially shadowed surroundings; but people have been trained to want cars which do not stand out, so they do not look too different from other people > conformity has been trained into people, I suppose this means.

But God did not make all our faces the same design. And it's interesting how a person can fall in love with someone who looks so different than anyone else, and then never want another :) Of course, hopefully one is not falling only for what someone looks like; but possibly God has us looking different so we can readily identify the one we are committed to.

But marketing can have us feeling we need to keep moving from one thing or person to another. Enough is never enough.

So, at least we still have love available, and love is free :)

Not that the goal here is to impress me because I'm just "another guy" on a forum, but I must say that on a personal level, I'm very impressed with your evaluation here, com7fy8. I particularly find riveting one of the first points you make:

"I can see how advertising can try to get people to have all the same interests and values so that the marketer can reach everyone with one approach for one product design. But each of us is a unique individual;..."
That definitely is something to think over, deeply even. And not just that, but some of the other comments you make about the purpose that may be implied in a biblical sense to the uniqueness that we each have as a human being. Great post! :oldthumbsup:

So, are you saying that, in some ways, philosophy of marketing/advertising attempts to shape us all into its own economic, moral matrix of value so we'll be convinced to "buy into" that matrix?
 
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com7fy8

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So, are you saying that, in some ways, philosophy of marketing/advertising attempts to shape us all into its own economic, moral matrix so we'll be convinced to "buy into" that matrix?
I would say there is marketing which does this. But I think each product and marketer can be unique, not to necessarily say every one has to be alike.

Now there can be an advantage to having one product for all people . . . so it can be mass-produced and not cost so much as if a certain item were custom-made for each individual. Cars could cost a lot much more, if every body of a car was made unique, for each of millions of buyers . . . for illustration.

Yet, is it necessary to double the price of a basic car, by putting in a lot of computer wiring for a radio system, or to have aerodynamic fine-detailing so the car can smoothly ride at over a hundred miles per hour? And other things might be making a car at least twice what an efficient and safe car would cost.

Yes, we might care about that one person who will take police on a hundred and twenty mile-an-hour chase; that is somebody's son, there, and so we might want to pay our extra hundreds, each, so each year they can design a car researched to be safe for when our vagrant kids endanger themselves.

In any case, who could be marketing who? Some high-end auto magazine might be promoting a few expensive things for the structure of a car, and only a few people read the magazine, but the designers of cars might feel they had better do what the magazine says to do. Then everyone is helping to pay for those design items which would be extremely expensive, individually, for those few who would custom-order to be tweaked into their cars. And so, we get marketed to accept what a handful of people marketed the designers to do :)

And, like this, may be politicians are going along with certain emotional demands of a handful of protesters who got shown on TV. And then the politicians market the cause which was marketed to them by not really very many people. The ones in our faces on TV do not necessarily speak for all the members of a certain group or cause.

Right now, in Massachusetts, we have a deal about if we should make sure that each nurse has only so many patients to care for at any given time. The number, of course, varies, according to the level of care needed . . . fewer, even one patient for an I.C.U. nurse, I think it is, but more patients where the care is not so concentrated per patient.

But > there are "nurses" who vote one way on this while, if I remember right, there is the head of a nursing association who supports the other side. So, nurses are used to promote either side.

Why are nurses being used to promote either side? My opinion is that we all have been treated very kindly and caringly by some number of nurses. And still a nurse is usually a lady . . . maybe a mommie image. So, if "nurses" or a "nurse" says she feels very strongly that she needs things a certain way, we can be swayed by her say.

A number of nurses have seemed to give us more love, even, maybe, than we have gotten from even ones closer to us. So, yes this can be a very emotional issue, not only an economic and medical one.

Nurses are being marketed to go one way or the other; associations have been marketed and are marketing; and we the voters are being marketed.

Plus, a politician can possibly get the votes of all the voters for one side or the other. Even if the side with the most nurses loses on this > these nurses and one voting with them are likely to be highly attached to their feelings about this issue, so that a politician can market himself or herself for all their votes, just by saying something for their cause.

But what would Jesus say? Ones claim that EMT's would have to "hold the wall" at ER's until their patient can fit into the quota of one of the ER nurses. Well, I am told how EMT's can burn out, in especially active city areas. So, stopping to be able to breathe could be good for them; Jesus gives us "rest for your souls," we have in Matthew 11:28-30. Plus, Jesus stood up for Mary who was not busy busy busy with doing the housework with her sister Martha; so it could be good to be stopped for a while, even right in the middle of a busy medical workday. On the other hand, it seems no one has provided for how they will pay for having lower amounts of patients per nurse. It could be good, of course, for nurses to have fewer patients so they can be more personal with each one, but at least they could have made sure, somehow, that institutions will have a reasonable way to pay for having more nurses . . . while now even community nonprofit hospitals are closing because they don't have money to pay for staff they already have.

But here is how marketing can make it look as though things are predictable. There is the more or less spoken idea that humans will do this or that and there is no other possibility. There is the idea that humans can not change, even that God Himself will not change certain people out of certain personality problems. And, with this > part of pushing your marketed political position is to get people to assume that humans will be incapable of making something work well . . . unless it is the something you want people to accept!!

If it is what you want . . . for some strange reason, it is guaranteed to work well for everyone.

And, like I consider, after marketers have succeeded in making a political thing a very emotional thing which a group of people want very badly, now a politician can harvest all their votes by simply saying some thing in favor of their treasured cause.

In the United States, I see how one group of marketers is getting large groups of votes, simply by saying they are in favor of a number of individual freedom items. But independence can breed isolation so then one is isolated with one's cell phones and preferences for how to get pleasure, not really learning how to love and enjoy sharing with other people. And if you threaten such people with even more loneliness . . . if they don't vote for you . . . this can keep their votes with you, no matter what any facts are.

Meanwhile, another group has ones who get votes by claiming they are helping voters make money. And there can be lip service to "morals". But we hear the most about money. And, again, money and morals can be more about each individual, including having morals to control others around you, really so you can make money and live the way you please without interference. Again, it all can be a trick which isolates us in our own individuality with our own free wills, and we are not learning how to love > "without complaining and disputing" (Philippians 2:13-16), as our Apostle Paul does say. We can get deeply weak while dictating how things have to be our way, so in our weakness we can be giving in to arguing and complaining instead of becoming strong in love.

So, we can be getting marketed to suppose we can be our own dictators, either way . . . with pleasures and freedom, or morals and money. Each one's vote makes each one one's own dictator!! So, marketing of individual freedom has helped make many the slaves of their own dictatorship.

So, we need to be careful not to allow anything to have power over us, but stay with God Himself and how He personally rules us in His kingdom. Or else, if you can be controlled by any human-level thing, including your own (Luke 9:23-24), the ones who control that thing can control you.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Marketing =/= Advertising

He seems to have totally forgotten that. If he forgot or never learned something so basic why should I trust him to have great insights or a good handle on where things are going.

Sure, they're not identical, but for the purposes of the underlying philosophical undercurrents that are at play here, I don't think it matters. Both fields are related and for general purposes, are both in bed together so as to drawn in attention for products and services for the purpose of either profit or empowerment. So, I personally think his applied analysis is relevant, even if his purpose for doing so is something that I, as a Christian, don't really like, especially if we bring in other angles on the field of NeuroMarketing.

But, who do you feel we should be listening to about the nature and praxis of Marketing, keith? I'm all ears.
 
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