today's slavery vs slavery of the 1800s

[Estrid]

Yes thank you I did not mean to sound that way, to me all kinds of slavery is bad, and it is even worse when slaves are badly abused, starved, and mistreated, here in the country I live it has been banned for about 700 years. But many still live for labour, and labour to live, many are in massive debt, and subjected to propaganda and brainwashing massive lies, and mental abuse that way. But still there is some freedom, some spare time. So there has definatly been worse conditions for some during some periods of histry

700 years. Where is that?

 

[Estrid]

Huh What are you doing here on Christian forums, I thought you were not allowed, I am sorry if I was blunt, but it is my experience, I was a heathen, or what I left behind was a heathen.

But after that baptism Jesus led me to clean my soul, and clen my spirit, so that all was like transparent. There inside is the light of God, God is Love, God is light, and when we see with the eye that can see the light, then we can know the greatest explosions of Love that will obliterate all else.

That is why Jesus says the greatest and the first commandment is to Love God with all our heart soul and mind, when we do all we want is there.

So it is why I serve the Lord, He is better, He know how to love better, He treats ladies better, He is magnificent and beautiful beyond compare, and all I ever wanted, so to serve Him is like a dream, even if people abuse me sometimes for it.

When we have not cleaned/ repented, and do not know the light of God within, then all we see is flesh.

Young women will think they are flesh, and men will see them as flesh. But Love is inside, that love is light, that light is the life of all mankind as it is written, when it leaves a body of flesh it falls down dead. so it is why flesh is death, and the light of God is life.

So now I am serving life and not death, you see what I mean?

Who are you to question my right to be here.
If you wish to avoid disturbing thoughts,
most of CF bans atheists.
Which I am. I see that " heathen" is for all
religions but christian. So im not heathen.

" He treats ladies better". Oh? Where, how? Better than who?
The bible doesnt reflect much respect for women.
Theres been little in Christian history.
Mao did more for women than 2000 years of
Christianity has done.


What am I missing that i regard not this better treatment by " god" ?

" All we see is flesh" is a very strange sounding thing
to say.. What does it meam, who are "

You dont speak for me.

"... think they are flesh"

Ive had extensive experience as a young woman.
Again, you dont speak for me, you may not be well
positined to speak for any women.

"Serve life, not dearh"

I dont know what serving life, not death might mean.


Tho as i understand Christianity, one is to endure life
as a servant, for a reward after death.


So to me, again you seem to have things backwards.

 

[A servant of the Kings]

700 years. Where is that?

Sweden

 

[A servant of the Kings]

Who are you to question my right to be here.
If you wish to avoid disturbing thoughts,
most of CF bans atheists.
Which I am. I see that " heathen" is for all
religions but christian. So im not heathen.

" He treats ladies better". Oh? Where, how? Better than who?
The bible doesnt reflect much respect for women.
Theres been little in Christian history.
Mao did more for women than 2000 years of
Christianity has done.


What am I missing that i regard not this better treatment by " god" ?

" All we see is flesh" is a very strange sounding thing
to say.. What does it meam, who are "

You dont speak for me.

"... think they are flesh"

Ive had extensive experience as a young woman.
Again, you dont speak for me, you may not be well
positined to speak for any women.

"Serve life, not dearh"

I dont know what serving life, not death might mean.


Tho as i understand Christianity, one is to endure life
as a servant, for a reward after death.


So to me, again you seem to have things backwards.

Well you do not seem to know what I am talking about,
I did not also before God let me see
God gave us an eye to see the light of God
The light of God is Love

That Love is for people who choose it, people who choose God
And not the dirt that is covering the light
So it is also about cleaning
Cleaning with Gods help from all that hurt us,and all we did that hurt others
It is the repentance to the remission of sin
That is very liberating and beautiful

The flesh is a term used in the bible, it is kind of a term for the physical body
Many people believe they actually are the physical body
It is quite silly, since we all know that life can leave a body of flesh
Then all that is left is a corpse, so that body is not a human
That person left the body
We are the life inside

That said I am not trying to persuade you, choosing Jesus as our Guide
And choosing God our Father, is something that is out of free will

I just would like it if you understand what I mean

 

[Larniavc]

This would be why the idea that slave owners beat and did not care for their slaves makes no sense as they cannot work for you whether paid or not if they are unfit to work.

Giving that sentence less than five seconds thought: as a example to other slaves that if you don't work you will be beaten to death.

 

[Estrid]

Well you do not seem to know what I am talking about,
I did not also before God let me see
God gave us an eye to see the light of God
The light of God is Love

That Love is for people who choose it, people who choose God
And not the dirt that is covering the light
So it is also about cleaning
Cleaning with Gods help from all that hurt us,and all we did that hurt others
It is the repentance to the remission of sin
That is very liberating and beautiful

The flesh is a term used in the bible, it is kind of a term for the physical body
Many people believe they actually are the physical body
It is quite silly, since we all know that life can leave a body of flesh
Then all that is left is a corpse, so that body is not a human
That person left the body
We are the life inside

That said I am not trying to persuade you, choosing Jesus as our Guide
And choosing God our Father, is something that is out of free will

I just would like it if you understand what I mean

Ive heard other Christians saybthe same things.
Which one of us has a realistic understanding of
what is really going on is not possible to detremine.

I'll just say that since all religions ( see heathen )
promise, and members say they deliver, comparable effects,
I'd say that indicates the effects are entirely psychological,
not sourced from any god(s).
Perhaps you have a better explanation?

Its nice if you feel " clean" and free of " sin". I would feel
better too if i believed i was sinful and might get tortued for it.

Your "silly" and "all know thar life leaves body" is itself
rather silly, as well as vague and ambiguous.
We all know things die, machines get destroyed-
because they are matrrial in nature. Not because they
are " more than" material.
No - zero- evidence exists that there is anything that
" leaves" a tractor or a frog when it ceases to function.

That there is a "soul" as you seem to be saying is purely
a faith- belief. Zero evidence. Not a fact. Not somethjng
everyone knows.
You got it backwards again.

I askrd how this " god" demonstrates the concern for
women that you say he has. I didnt see any response.

Do you mean to be calling peoplecwho,do not choose to believe in your god "dirt"? Thats what youve said.

 

[Larniavc]

Sweden

It remained legal until 1878 in Swedish colonies.

 

[Estrid]

Giving that sentence less than five seconds thought: as a example to other slaves that if you don't work you will be beaten to death.

It depends. Many times there has been the specific intent
starve / drug and beat and terrorize cheap easily replaced slaves into a condition that made sure they cannot rebel.

A recent example of this would be King Leopold
with his ivory trade in the " Belgian Congo".

Go back to the sugsr plantations of Haiti, jamaiva etc where life expectancy of slaves was about two years.

Sex trafficking victims drugged, imprisoned and
disposed of when no longer profitzble.

 

[rturner76]

But there are also written down examples of people becoming friends with "their slaves", giving them a higher position in society, lots of money, and freedom, if you want I can tell you more about it.

Unfortunately that is rare and most slaves have been and are badly abused, in a way that would make most people crushed and miserable

True, and from what I have read and documentaries I've seen, in the Greek and Roman systems of slavery it's been said that many of the people who were kept as slaves were treated like family members. I haven't been able to verify how true that is. Mostly because there are so many different people writing about the time they lived in. I'm sure that just like wives, some slaves were beaten and some were treated with respect.

I apologize if I read something in your post that I jumped on thinking you were being a slave owner apologist. Because the black population in the USA was often through the slave trade, then Jim Crow, the CIA specifically brought drugs to the US and specifically sold them in black and Latin poor communities, I get fired up from any topic that deals with slavery or just racism in general.

I do know for a fact that Europeans did not invent slavery. An example is the enslaved Israelites in Egypt about 1300 years BCE. I'm sure it went on even a few millennia before that or even more. What I particularly hate about the trans-Atlantic chattel slave trade is one, no rules about the humane treatment of human beings (they were considered "Beasts of the Field" like any other farm animal, and two, the fact that a slave could be made to breed and the slave master would own their children and their children's children in perpetuity. Also, the fact that in the past, slaves were mostly POWs in Africa after a specific group or tribe was conquered but, the Federal law that ratified the legality of slavery also specified that a white person could not be enslaved (unless he owed a substantial debt or signed a contract to work off his travel expenses, food, and lodging, typically a seven-year contract that he would have signed before they sent his ticket to the Americas). I think it was called "indentured servitude rather than a chattel slave because the master would have no claim on your children, just a limited labor contract. Before that it was about ethnicity, the country or tribe one came from but this law broke people down strictly by color and no other factor.

All of this is just to explain why I sometimes jump the gun when I "feel like" someone does not feel like slavery in the past was not a human rights tragedy. I should not have made that assumption from your statement because you were just stating facts, not your opinion of them. Many slaves WERE well cared for, fed, and housed. Still just getting caught with a book could land a slave on the end of a noose on a tree. It's a very emotional topic for many people (like me), however, I needed to be reminded that stating facts is not an endorsement of those facts. It's just history.

 

[rturner76]

Mao did more for women than 2000 years of
Christianity has done.

I could be mistaken but didn't Chairman Mao do something like kill a couple of million of the citizens through assassination and starvation? I could be wrong. I imagine that being from Southeast Asia, you would have a better idea of what happened under Mao. In American schools, we were taught that the Chairman was a tyrant who murdered and engineered the starvation of millions of the citizens that he was elected to protect.

I do understand that never having lived in China nor having parents or grandparents who lived there, I would have no way to true;y understand the history of the region other than what the American government has told me through the public school system

 

[Estrid]

I could be mistaken but didn't Chairman Mao do something like kill a couple of million of the citizens through assassination and starvation? I could be wrong. I imagine that being from Southeast Asia, you would have a better idea of what happened under Mao. In American schools, we were taught that the Chairman was a tyrant who murdered and engineered the starvation of millions of the citizens that he was elected to protect.

I do understand that never having lived in China nor having parents or grandparents who lived there, I would have no way to true;y understand the history of the region other than what the American government has told me through the public school system

The claim was that " god" / christianity is
so concerned with the welfare of women.

I pointed out that Mao did more for womens'
rights than Christianity did in 2000 years.

If the topic is to be which world leaders intentiinally
or thro' inadvertance and bad policy causrd the death
of how many, one could start with the god who is said to
treat women so well.

In the event, our friend who spoke of such eems to have fled the iintrrview.

 

[rturner76]

The claim was that " god" / christianity is
so concerned with the welfare of women.

I pointed out that Mao did more for womens'
rights than Christianity did in 2000 years.

If the topic is to be which world leaders intentiinally
or thro' inadvertance and bad policy causrd the death
of how many, one could start with the god who is said to
treat women so well.

In the event, our friend who spoke of such eems to have fled the iintrrview.

Perhaps the poster didn't have any way of proving the idea that they were trying to push. I do appreciate learning that The Chairman advocated for women's rights. In the United States, we are systematically taught the evils of Communism. If the party made gains for women's rights it can't be all bad. Thank you for clarifying. I do agree that even modern-day Christianity (especially the evangelical churches) pushes the idea that a woman's only identity is to be a wife and mother. Even the church that I belong to (Catholic) has a culture of women being primarily baby-makers with the rule of birth control being a sin. The culture is changing but there are always people who cling to the old ways. Pope Francis has caught a lot of criticism for modernizing the Church but we need reform to move forward.

Just as a side note. My mother who fell pregnant by a married man at a very young age was sent to a convent for "fallen women" and had her baby taken by them to offer him to adoptive parents. She has always felt railroaded by what happened so I completely agree that the church has not considered the rights of women. It was even worse a thousand years ago.

 

[Ana the Ist]

When you think of the conditions on a slave ship, as reported, its really hard to think of that as Gods plan without imagining an evil God.

You mean "slave ship" as in "galley slavery"?

 

[Ana the Ist]

Well the first people that were taken slaves to the us by the British were mostly Irish I believe, those were desperately financially poor people who sold them selves into slavery, they would get their boat ticket paid for 20 years of labour or something like that, I believe it was mostly in the 16 hundreds. But almost non of them would survive for 20 years.

You're talking about indentured servitude...which is generally considered a type of slavery but not chattel slavery.

 

[Ana the Ist]

True, and from what I have read and documentaries I've seen, in the Greek and Roman systems of slavery it's been said that many of the people who were kept as slaves were treated like family members. I haven't been able to verify how true that is. Mostly because there are so many different people writing about the time they lived in. I'm sure that just like wives, some slaves were beaten and some were treated with respect.

I apologize if I read something in your post that I jumped on thinking you were being a slave owner apologist. Because the black population in the USA was often through the slave trade, then Jim Crow, the CIA specifically brought drugs to the US and specifically sold them in black and Latin poor communities, I get fired up from any topic that deals with slavery or just racism in general.

I do know for a fact that Europeans did not invent slavery. An example is the enslaved Israelites in Egypt about 1300 years BCE. I'm sure it went on even a few millennia before that or even more. What I particularly hate about the trans-Atlantic chattel slave trade is one, no rules about the humane treatment of human beings (they were considered "Beasts of the Field" like any other farm animal, and two, the fact that a slave could be made to breed and the slave master would own their children and their children's children in perpetuity. Also, the fact that in the past, slaves were mostly POWs in Africa after a specific group or tribe was conquered but, the Federal law that ratified the legality of slavery also specified that a white person could not be enslaved (unless he owed a substantial debt or signed a contract to work off his travel expenses, food, and lodging, typically a seven-year contract that he would have signed before they sent his ticket to the Americas). I think it was called "indentured servitude rather than a chattel slave because the master would have no claim on your children, just a limited labor contract. Before that it was about ethnicity, the country or tribe one came from but this law broke people down strictly by color and no other factor.

All of this is just to explain why I sometimes jump the gun when I "feel like" someone does not feel like slavery in the past was not a human rights tragedy.

I don't see it as a "human rights tragedy". That would be odd...since human rights weren't really a concept in most places through human history. Slavery was a concept though...and it existed nearly everywhere.

It must have been considered a mercy for those who lost a war...something had to be done with the losing side, and while utter annihilation/genocide was certainly something that happened....enslavement didn't require the bloodshed. It must have been seen as a merciful option if you go back far enough.

I should not have made that assumption from your statement because you were just stating facts, not your opinion of them. Many slaves WERE well cared for, fed, and housed. Still just getting caught with a book could land a slave on the end of a noose on a tree. It's a very emotional topic for many people (like me), however, I needed to be reminded that stating facts is not an endorsement of those facts. It's just history.

Why though? You're half white...I'm going to guess you don't get emotional when discussing the Irish Potato Famine or something like that....so what's the difference? Serious question.

 

[Ragdoll]

There is also socialism which is form of slavery and a very well accepted form of slavery among most Democrat voters. So I can see where the OP is coming from on this topic.

 

[Ana the Ist]

True, and from what I have read and documentaries I've seen, in the Greek and Roman systems of slavery it's been said that many of the people who were kept as slaves were treated like family members. I haven't been able to verify how true that is. Mostly because there are so many different people writing about the time they lived in. I'm sure that just like wives, some slaves were beaten and some were treated with respect.

I apologize if I read something in your post that I jumped on thinking you were being a slave owner apologist. Because the black population in the USA was often through the slave trade, then Jim Crow, the CIA specifically brought drugs to the US and specifically sold them in black and Latin poor communities, I get fired up from any topic that deals with slavery or just racism in general.

I do know for a fact that Europeans did not invent slavery. An example is the enslaved Israelites in Egypt about 1300 years BCE. I'm sure it went on even a few millennia before that or even more. What I particularly hate about the trans-Atlantic chattel slave trade is one, no rules about the humane treatment of human beings (they were considered "Beasts of the Field" like any other farm animal, and two, the fact that a slave could be made to breed and the slave master would own their children and their children's children in perpetuity. Also, the fact that in the past, slaves were mostly POWs in Africa after a specific group or tribe was conquered but, the Federal law that ratified the legality of slavery also specified that a white person could not be enslaved (unless he owed a substantial debt or signed a contract to work off his travel expenses, food, and lodging, typically a seven-year contract that he would have signed before they sent his ticket to the Americas). I think it was called "indentured servitude rather than a chattel slave because the master would have no claim on your children, just a limited labor contract. Before that it was about ethnicity, the country or tribe one came from but this law broke people down strictly by color and no other factor.

All of this is just to explain why I sometimes jump the gun when I "feel like" someone does not feel like slavery in the past was not a human rights tragedy. I should not have made that assumption from your statement because you were just stating facts, not your opinion of them. Many slaves WERE well cared for, fed, and housed. Still just getting caught with a book could land a slave on the end of a noose on a tree. It's a very emotional topic for many people (like me), however, I needed to be reminded that stating facts is not an endorsement of those facts. It's just history.

Also....human rights tragedy???

You're in favor of racial discrimination now. We aren't back in the days of slavery....we're 50 years past the civil rights movement. How are you complaining about the state enforcement of racial discrimination under Jim Crow....and also in favor of the state enforcement of racial discrimination right now???

I mean...good grief....if you think someone who was in favor of the practice of slavery back when slavery was relatively normal everywhere is immoral....certainly you think someone in favor of slavery today, when it's not common is human scum...right?

So how should we consider those people in favor of racial discrimination today 50 years after it was outlawed during the end of the civil rights movement?

Are they good and moral people? Or you know....trash?

 

[ralliann]

Yes it is. The great shame for the USA however was that we legalized it and legitimized it, and even fought a war to preserve it.

As is being done today with immigration reform. Non of what I spoke of is addressed in the reform proposed so far, but it makes it "legal". Nor does any seem to mention dealing with México's corruption.

As for individuals who owned slaves, I cant look into the hearts of each one and say who was evil and who was just along for the ride of the times. But all were engaged in an atrocity, for sure.

Nave you heard the dems on immigration? We need people to pick our crops (cheap labor) we need people to have cheap food (cheap labor) We need people to keep our lawns, clean our homes, take care of our children etc. Making that slave wage work legal.

 

[rambot]

I only skimmed a bit.

This thread is about thr slavery system set up through America's prison system right?

 

[Hans Blaster]

I only skimmed a bit.

This thread is about thr slavery system set up through America's prison system right?

Not really. It's an attempt to paper over a set of really bad comments about slavery in an earlier thread. The early responses tell the story.