A Parable about Age

[sandwiches]

If you're not taking me on my word,then why do you take others on theirs before seeing your proof?

For the same reason you take some claims at face value and others you ask for evidence. Think about this. What if I told you that I have talked to God and he told me that Jesus wasn't his son? Of course you wouldn't believe me. You'd require evidence, wouldn't you? What if instead I told you I'm wearing a red shirt? Would you believe that? Probably.

Ask yourself why you'd take one claim without evidence and not another one and you'll have your answer.

But you just like to believe what you want to.And he resides in heaven.Did you go to heaven and look for him?

No. Can I got to heaven without believing in him?

That makes no sense.You can find him by prayer , which of course you certainly lack.

I lack prayer? That doesn't even make sense.

And the NT isnt vague.And it explains God much better,because his son came,and he knows much more than the prophets about what he wants,and how good he is,and explains well his actions.Fulfilled prophecies are another sign,and eyewitnesses prove his existance.And btw.

The Bible proves the Bible, which proves the Bible, which proves the Bible, et cetera. Thanks for this profound and novel insight.

Freeing your mind isnt hard at all to do,but you just dont want to.

How is it done, then?

 

[sandwiches]

This is really quite a profound truth! Since you brought up the contradictory experiences you and I had, what was your status when you were seeking?

Myself, I found I did not HAVE a "whole heart" to seek Him with. I never got anywhere until after making that discovery ...

I don't think I have ever been more willing or able than back when I tried staying true to my faith. I had doubts but I KNEW that God would nudge me or point me in the "right" direction and keep my faith... but nothing.

 

[GA777]

For the same reason you take some claims at face value and others you ask for evidence. Think about this. What if I told you that I have talked to God and he told me that Jesus wasn't his son? Of course you wouldn't believe me. You'd require evidence, wouldn't you? What if instead I told you I'm wearing a red shirt? Would you believe that? Probably.

You're right. But you'd be the only one to hear a voice telling so, which will make someone not believe so, whereas answering prayers- seeing the superntural - miracles - ndes happen a lot and share many common aspects. If it wasnt for the common aspects, things would have been different. Also give me 1 valid reason which may make us lie, that no serious prayers got answered. We're trying to help you, because the thing is real and happened, or else we wouldnt waste our time here.

If you are the only one to hear that, then of course I wouldnt believe.

Ask yourself why you'd take one claim without evidence and not another one and you'll have your answer.

No. Can I got to heaven without believing in him?

Nope. Dont think so.

I lack prayer? That doesn't even make sense.

You understood what I meant. You dont pray.

How is it done, then?

You try to forget everything, stop thinking about anything else, and try to imagine things as real. And as long as you show some great interest in God, and seek him all the time, you'll eventually get your answer. And as I said, if we were uncertain about his existance, we wouldnt be so sure (the ones here)

 

[GA777]

Anyways, when you guys learn to talk in a civil way, without twisting words, we can start this again. If you cant control your emotions or never intend to change your views, then forget about it. I may not be so convincing but I'll try my best.

 

[razeontherock]

It's refreshing that you guys seem to be able to so easily denigrate what, for most of us, was an extremely trying and painful process. The process of becoming an atheist is far harder than most of you guys will ever know.

But it must be nice to know that your God allows you to denigrate the pain of others!

(And if you think, for one second that what you have said here is not hurtful to some of us: think again, because you are, for once, WRONG. Go ahead and try to justify what you said, dance all your circles and tell me how I misinterpreted your words, but remember: that jibe only works once or twice, either you cant' say what you mean or you don't like what you said when others hear it and repeat it back to you. Either way, you messed up.)

I'm sorry if the Truth I present stirs pain of some sort, but life is a painful process. You have you, and perhaps some others in this very thread, who did everything you knew to do searching for God, and came up empty. You also have at least a few in this same thread who found God to be Faithful. And the question has been raised, what accounts for the difference?

One possibility is simply that God loves me more than you. I just don't believe that; there is much Scripture to the contrary.

Another possibility is that after I had done everything I knew to do for years and years, the real process of learning what He wants began. And I followed.

I bet if you were to search, you would find a few new things ...

 

[razeontherock]

Which has nothing to do with the AV's bible quote.

Does my age display by my avatar say 'born yesterday'?

or it may be that I am not starting with the right conclusions, as you pointed out in an earlier discussion: link

Did you really think you were making some kind of point? (Other than an affinity for red herring, I mean)

 

[razeontherock]

And here you go on to prove my point:

sacrificed himself to himself and raised himself from the dead to go back up to heaven with himself

All of that is false, or misconception at best. Clinging to falsehoods like this is more than enough to keep G-d at arm's length.

even allow a bit of doubt for anyone, least of all such serious doubt that atheism springs up, or even worse: incorrect interpretations of God?

Let's leave the term "free will" out for the moment. Which part of "let man have dominion" escapes you?

then why would this not be:

1. The most important concept in the universe?
2. The most incontrovertible FACT of existence?

A Christian of course believes this IS the most important concept in this life. If it were somehow rendered factual, we would have a very different existence. Apparently this will be one attribute of the next life, and no, there are no sinners or atheists in hell. All believe based on FACT, and sin has ceased.

 

[razeontherock]

God ignores the prayers of a child in Africa dying from AIDS. explain to me how that is justice. Where is the salvation?

What did I say earlier? "Anything you can do to make sure that when prayer doesn't work, you can blame the person doing the praying rather than the deity being prayed to."

You're doing it again!

Not a big fan of personal responsibility, are ya?

Man, you must think atheists are actively trying to avoid God. You don't think we've tried the same number as you?

Again, I ask, why do you Christians think that we atheists just haven't done it right? Is it so hard for you guys to realise that we have done the exact same things as you guys and simply gotten different results?

Again, personal responsibility comes into play here. Words, actions, and empty rituals are not what God has ever chosen. I absolutely know that "trying the same number" will get the same results. The only difficulty is, in trying to get that number, or relaying it ...

Making excuses and / or justifying ourselves is known to stop the process dead in it's tracks. What's the opposite? (1 Peter 5:6) Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time"

 

[razeontherock]

Personally I think prayer is a "balm for the soul" rather than a real impactor.

False dichotomy. The "balm" is described as a very particular form of incense, which we can know a great deal about. This has everything to do with Jesus' statement about bearing fruit, and we see this process of growth both in nature and in people in the Bible.

Here's an interesting mathematical factoid:

Let's say I live for 72 years (nice average male U.S. lifespan). If I pick wrong in religion during those 72 years and I end up in Hell and get punished for eternity (that's "infinity" years) that means that punishment is based on 72years/inifinity years which is approximately equal to "zero".

If I gave you zero seconds to make a decision and the consequences were quite dire (I was going to start torturing you for a month and a half) would you call that a fair balance?

Our entire existence is now nothing? I'm pretty sure you could recall one decision you agonized over, and were careful to do the right thing. This seems to violate the precept of your factoid here.

I love to read stories about the Saints. One I just read about was St. Joseph of Cupertino who was apparently quite dim-witted but could levitate and "fly".

My absolute favorite saint is Christina of Liege who at her "funeral" (they thought she was dead but apparently she was stricken with something that looked like death), she came back awake and flew to the rafters of the church where her funeral was being held

I'm guessing Sally Field isn't so cute anymore?

 

[FrenchyBearpaw]

I'm sorry if the Truth I present stirs pain of some sort, but life is a painful process. You have you, and perhaps some others in this very thread, who did everything you knew to do searching for God, and came up empty. You also have at least a few in this same thread who found God to be Faithful. And the question has been raised, what accounts for the difference?

One possibility is simply that God loves me more than you. I just don't believe that; there is much Scripture to the contrary.

Another possibility is that after I had done everything I knew to do for years and years, the real process of learning what He wants began. And I followed.

I bet if you were to search, you would find a few new things ...

Or another possibility might be that we find meaning where we look for it, and use positive events to reinforce our beliefs, no matter how tenuous they may be.

 

[razeontherock]

Or another possibility might be that we find meaning where we look for it, and use positive events to reinforce our beliefs, no matter how tenuous they may be.

Otherwise known as: did not, did too, nana nana boo boo Next?

 

[FrenchyBearpaw]

Otherwise known as: did not, did too, nana nana boo boo Next?

Otherwise known as a false dichotomy, AKA, itellectually dishonest. But that's ok, internet theologians are infamous for this.

 

[Davian]

Which has nothing to do with the AV's bible quote.

Does my age display by my avatar say 'born yesterday'?

or it may be that I am not starting with the right conclusions, as you pointed out in an earlier discussion: link

Did you really think you were making some kind of point? (Other than an affinity for red herring, I mean)

You were to conflating "generation", "degeneration" and "re-generation" in an attempt to give substance to what you think AV's quote meant. My point is that I am not working from the same conclusions you are, so your explanation fell flat. I am assuming the bible is just a old book, until demonstrated otherwise. If we don't really know what a passage means, just say so.

BTW, does AV concur with your definition in this context? It was his quote.

 

[thaumaturgy]

Our entire existence is now nothing? I'm pretty sure you could recall one decision you agonized over, and were careful to do the right thing. This seems to violate the precept of your factoid here.

Umm, no, I didn't say that. What I said was the "ratio of time spent living to the time spent being punished for failure to make the right decisions while living" is approximately zero.

That's the reason that I am complaining about eternal torment.

Don't worry, though, it's a mathematical concept. NOt necessarily related to faith because math and science don't work on faith-based topics.

I'm guessing Sally Field isn't so cute anymore?

PSSST: She was a flying nun on a TV show. To my knowledge she was never beatified and then sanctified by the Catholic Church. Now, granted, I could be a bit behind on the current list of Catholic Saints but I don't think she's made the cut just yet.

 

[thaumaturgy]

And here you go on to prove my point:
All of that is false, or misconception at best. Clinging to falsehoods like this is more than enough to keep G-d at arm's length.

FALSE? So the whole soteriological basis of Christianity that mankind need only accept that Jesus is their savior and that "3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." further enhanced by the later analysis that God the father, son and holy spirit are one is false?

I am seriously confused about your stance here, Raze. Please correct me as to where I have gone wrong! Are you arguing against the "trinity"? Or is there something else I misread here.

Please show me chapter and verse how my analysis is false. Thanks!

(BTW: I'm ok if you want to go down certain heretical path such as that of Arius, but you'll have to explain the First Council of Nicea in light of this. Does your congregation not repeat the Nicean Creed? Very interesting.)

I am truly intrigued now!

 

[thaumaturgy]

I'm sorry if the Truth I present stirs pain of some sort, but life is a painful process

What you said was denigrative of the "spiritual path" some of us took. You suggest we dialed incorrectly because we knew the number wouldn't work or some such. That isn't a "truth" you are proffering, Raze, it is an outright insult.

Again, I am glad you have your faith and it helps you. And I realize that it is often quite difficult for some Christians to have anything like "empathy" for others. The exhortation in Luke 6:31 is one of the hardest things for some Christians I've met to swallow. Maybe it is the hardest verse in the entire Bible.

Another possibility is that after I had done everything I knew to do for years and years, the real process of learning what He wants began. And I followed.

There is yet another possibility: You are credulous to the things that some of us are not.

You see a "miracle" and assume it divine. Some of us see an unexpected event and realize that sometimes random chance occurs. You see a "sign" in the heavens, some of us see clouds.

The part of being a materialist is that we accept that there is a distribution of possible outcomes from an event. In statistics sometimes you find a correlation between data sets that is due solely to random chance. It's built into the theories.

I bet if you were to search, you would find a few new things ...

And again, you seem to be going back to your only defense that we athiests simply didn't try hard enough. Good for you. It comforts you.

You tell me I'm wrong about the fundamentals of soteriology in Christianity without explainging how. (I really honestly am interested in where I was posting a falsehood in the earlier post about standard Christian soteriology), you tell others that they simply don't understand how prayer works, etc etc.

The best you seem to have on offer is not insight of knowledge but a constant stream of rebuke. YOu may not mean it as such but remember, if you keep telling people they are wrong or don't understand etc. then it starts to look like that's all you have.

That isn't a conversation, that isn't a reasoned defense of faith. That's merely telling others they are wrong.

 

[GA777]

You and I obviously have a different understanding of the word 'just'.

Nope. It's just that his will isnt very easy to understand. Their apparent state may seem to be really bad, but in fact that can be necessary in many occasions, I'll give you a few examples:

-1- God put hungry/poor people here for us, so we can help them and show if we are good and how good we are.

-2- God chooses the place and the time people (spirit form) are born at. And when God gives you a little, you can get saved when you return with doing little which can very easily ease up the salvation.

-3- Through hunger,people can stop caring about the actual life,and put their eyes on the eternal one so they can do the will of God etc.

-4- These people can have more time for God, which will of course help them in the afterlife in different ways.

-5- That help those people to get their salvation.If they may be rich,many of them may forget about God,or when they are able to live their own lives

-6- Faith and Belief is decreasing very fast. Prayer is decreasing, and people arent leaving their burdens to God, and through the technology and such, people think they are 'the gods'. So in other words, the creation turned its back to the creator, so as a just and patient God, instead of taking revenge, he keeps waiting until people "feel" the pain in the world and return to him and ask him for help. But unfortunately, people nowadays only care for themselves.

-7-After the poor condition of People, many may seek food and work for it because they want to save their life and not die of hunger.They'd know the feeling of hunger and pain by then and try to save as many people as they can from hunger when they get to their wealth.

So the "apparent" state may seem difficult, but God looks at the future of everyone. And this life is meaningless, it's too short and not nearly good.

How can you possibly claim to know that when people here on the forum claim to hear God, they're telling the truth, but when somebody else claims to hear God, they have mental problems?

Good question. Tho. The possibilities when hearing such voices are these.

The person is hallucinating or lying.
If neither of those happened, it is either god or the devil.

There are lots of people for example who claim to be demon possessed, but not less than 99% of them need to see a psychiatrist. Same goes for this. But when people hear a voice which saves their life at the right moment, it is clear that there’s some supernatural entity interfering here. And there are lots of them happening. And you know every spirit by its fruit + God never talks too much, but says what is necessary which is identical in that thread. And there are common aspects between those which hear this, and it is that the words keep getting repeated until the listener agrees to do so, and later on he’ll realize how lucky he was to be obedient.

 

[FrenchyBearpaw]

Nope. It's just that his will isnt very easy to understand. Their apparent state may seem to be really bad, but in fact that can be necessary in many occasions, I'll give you a few examples:

-1- God put hungry/poor people here for us, so we can help them and show if we are good and how good we are.

-2- God chooses the place and the time people (spirit form) are born at. And when God gives you a little, you can get saved when you return with doing little which can very easily ease up the salvation.

-3- Through hunger,people can stop caring about the actual life,and put their eyes on the eternal one so they can do the will of God etc.

-4- These people can have more time for God, which will of course help them in the afterlife in different ways.

-5- That help those people to get their salvation.If they may be rich,many of them may forget about God,or when they are able to live their own lives

-6- Faith and Belief is decreasing very fast. Prayer is decreasing, and people arent leaving their burdens to God, and through the technology and such, people think they are 'the gods'. So in other words, the creation turned its back to the creator, so as a just and patient God, instead of taking revenge, he keeps waiting until people "feel" the pain in the world and return to him and ask him for help. But unfortunately, people nowadays only care for themselves.

-7-After the poor condition of People, many may seek food and work for it because they want to save their life and not die of hunger.They'd know the feeling of hunger and pain by then and try to save as many people as they can from hunger when they get to their wealth.

So the "apparent" state may seem difficult, but God looks at the future of everyone. And this life is meaningless, it's too short and not nearly good.




Good question. Tho. The possibilities when hearing such voices are these.

The person is hallucinating or lying.
If neither of those happened, it is either god or the devil.

There are lots of people for example who claim to be demon possessed, but not less than 99% of them need to see a psychiatrist. Same goes for this. But when people hear a voice which saves their life at the right moment, it is clear that there’s some supernatural entity interfering here. And there are lots of them happening. And you know every spirit by its fruit + God never talks too much, but says what is necessary which is identical in that thread. And there are common aspects between those which hear this, and it is that the words keep getting repeated until the listener agrees to do so, and later on he’ll realize how lucky he was to be obedient.

Sounds like so many ants in a lab. Either the god you worship is omnipotent or incompetent. Your description seems to make a case for the latter.

 

[Nostromo]

Nope. It's just that his will isnt very easy to understand. Their apparent state may seem to be really bad, but in fact that can be necessary in many occasions, I'll give you a few examples:
...
So the "apparent" state may seem difficult, but God looks at the future of everyone. And this life is meaningless, it's too short and not nearly good.

Is it true that Salvation is based on our acceptance of Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour, and not on our behaviour?

There are lots of people for example who claim to be demon possessed, but not less than 99% of them need to see a psychiatrist. Same goes for this. But when people hear a voice which saves their life at the right moment, it is clear that there’s some supernatural entity interfering here.

When the vast majority of people hear a voice, they're mental.
When a small minority of people hear a voice at a particular moment, it's divine intervention.

Doesn't that sound an awful lot like using rare coincidences to confirm your opinion, while ignoring all the conflicting evidence?

 

[GrowingSmaller]

Let's say an account exists that has 1 dollar deposited into it once a year.

Bank records show two things:

1. The account shows a balance of $4,570,000,000.00.
2. The account was opened 6000 years ago.

Evolutionists say #1 is correct and #2 must be in error.

YECs say #1 must be in error and #2 is correct.

Embedded Agers say both are correct, because the account must have been opened with an initial deposit of 4.57 billion dollars (-6000).

I would say that you have in your mind an isometric transformation of the natural world (according to certain transformation rules) which gives the creation scenario as a result. People may point out that they look dissimilar, and so cant be the same phenomenon being discussed, but than you can point out transformation rules. So [1,1,1] leads and maps onto [2,2,2] if the rule is +1 or *2. A bit like what Picasso did, but possibly in reverse.