A Parable about Age

[Davian]

How does "not picking up the phone" equate to answering "no"?

#377

I'm just showing all the options which, of course, he doesn't seem to like.

I don't know what it was he specifically prayed for, and it's none of my business.

Furthermore, I don't know how God specifically responded.

All I know is that God handled it His way, and if sandwiches won't accept that, then he will just be making the matter worse.

You didn't show him *all* the options, such as "deities do not exist."

He clearly stated what he prayed for, and the response he got. #345

What do you mean "making the matter worse"?

 

[Tiberius]

Test

 

[Tiberius]

Atheism is refusing to call because you believe the number is not a working number.

Very often, atheism is a case of calling and calling and calling and calling, not getting an answer and then figuring that no one is at the other end...

As usual, you have the wrong idea about things.

 

[Lillen]

I have another explination... science lie about the creations age!

 

[Lillen]

There is another expenation of it, everyone has experienced when time moves slow, and the minuites seems like hours. This psychological phonomenon, what exactly does it do physical body!?

 

[Eudaimonist]

Very often, atheism is a case of calling and calling and calling and calling, not getting an answer and then figuring that no one is at the other end...

More than that, it is realizing that one isn't even holding something that is reliably even a phone. And that too leads to the realization that even an "answered" call wouldn't necessarily even be what you might interpret it to be.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[thaumaturgy]

More than that, it is realizing that one isn't even holding something that is reliably even a phone. And that too leads to the realization that even an "answered" call wouldn't necessarily even be what you might interpret it to be.


eudaimonia,

Mark

For me the fact that prayers often appeared to go "unanswered" was not a problem for my faith initially. There's a million "excuses" generated for God by the faithful:

1. God works in mysterious ways
2. God always answers prayers but sometimes the answer is "no"
3. Make sure you are praying "right"
4. etc.

So when one would occasionaly appear to be answered it was positive confirmation and those times when it wasn't it wasn't a problem because you knew it was something you had to figure out on your own.

The earlier conversation with AV in which he said sometimes he doesn't answer his phone at home really doesn't apply. God is "with you" always. So when he doesn't answer your prayers it's not like he's saying "no" or "I'll let you figure that out yourself it'll make youa better person", HE's just staring at you silently.

The old saw the "God helps those who help themselves" and if God answers your prayer by doing nothing to intervene but allows you to "grow" by figuring it out for yourself begs the question "Then why is God even necessary in the calculus there?"

If I am supposed to this stuff all by myself then what makes me think God is even there to begin with?

This was a step for me. WHen faced with something I can propose two possibilities:

1. God didn't answer my prayer because he wants me to help myself and become a stronger person and he isn't even going to communicate this to me, he's just going to stare at me

2. God isn't there to begin with.

In either case I'm left on my own. If I have "faith" then I can always tell myself it is #1, but if I am willing to let go of God then the outcome really doesn't change, it's just the "interpretation" I layer on it.

I know there are people like Raze (who looks an awful lot like Mark Wahlberg, right?) who claim they have definitive proof that prayer works and they see all manner of evidence for God in their lives. That's great. Clearly it doesn't work that way for all of us.

I find it annoying that folks like Raze insist that there is this "evidence" he finds compelling but whenever we skeptically ask about it suddenly it is all of our faults that we simply don't understand the system.

Well, that's all fine and dandy. Apparently God made prayer so complex and unattainable for certain people that only the truly enlightened folks like Raze can utilize it to feel closer to God.

Now, of course Raze will point out he's no claiming any special skill or ability but clearly that is not the case. Many on here have asked cogent and reasonable questions about prayer based on their experience and invariably we hear that the person asking the questions has simply got something "wrong".

It's tiring being so wrong all the time. If only God had miracle working powers to help us who are wrong to see the light.

But God can only do so much. He's somewhat limited apparently.

And apparently he gives us a brain prone to "science" and "questioning" and then refuses to allow the questions to be addressed.

I have never understood that God. Guess I never will. He clearly made me defective, and if he didn't see how that was going to work out then I have to wonder about his Omniscience.

 

[quatona]

Sometimes the things I wish for (but are not in my control) take place. Sometimes they don´t.
This is my experience, it´s everybody´s experience, and to tell from the posts here it is what praying Christians experience as well.
It will the experienced result when I pray to the FSM or a jug of milk.

Now, how do we get from there to the interpretation "God answers prayers" without actually making it the premise?

 

[GA777]

As was stated, confirmation bias. If God answers prayers then he apparently answers them in the exact same fashion as if one had not prayed.

Then why doesnt the FSM answer any?And what are you stating can be only shown to be true by luck.But we're talking about miracles happening here,that's no luck.
Tho. your answer is expected,because you only believe what you want to believe,and havent had such experiences.

 

[GA777]

Sure. To use your analogy, without having met this person, I have no reason to take you on your word, right? Worse yet, I have actually looked for this person where he's said to be reside and he wasn't there. I called for him and looked for him everywhere I could think of. Now, of course what theists tell me is that I didn't look in the right places or that he doesn't have to answer me (AV and Jazer.) Fine. So, show me exactly where I can find him or, better yet, introduce him to me; just don't expect me to simply believe you when you tell me this person exists and he X and Y when I haven't even seen him. I've only heard stories, and vague descriptions of him, conflicting ones at that, even within the same person but yet I'm supposed to not only accept these stories but I'm supposed to already put my trust in this person even before I can be sure he exists.


Is prayer effective when you don't believe it does anything or that anyone will even hear it? In other words, is prayer effective even without faith?

If you're not taking me on my word,then why do you take others on theirs before seeing your proof?But you just like to believe what you want to.And he resides in heaven.Did you go to heaven and look for him?That makes no sense.You can find him by prayer , which of course you certainly lack.
And the NT isnt vague.And it explains God much better,because his son came,and he knows much more than the prophets about what he wants,and how good he is,and explains well his actions.Fulfilled prophecies are another sign,and eyewitnesses prove his existance.And btw. Freeing your mind isnt hard at all to do,but you just dont want to.


When you free your mind,you can have this faith.Tho. maybe if you keep trying , God will be merciful and show you his existance just like Jesus did to Thomas when Thomas didnt believe Jesus was resurrected.

 

[GA777]

A convenient excuse for you to use when it doesn't work, eh?



And how many of those prayers were people praying to find car keys? Make the touchdown in the big game? What about all the people starving in Africa who pray and pray and pray and get nothing?



You're kidding. God could help people, save them from terrible things, but he doesn't, because he doesn't like the people he'd have to use to get the job done?

First of all, that's disgusting. And why would God care? Is he afraid to get cooties or something?

And secondly, why would he even need to use people in the first place? He never needed to use people in the Bible. He could snap his fingers and get things done.

Your interpretation of this sure paints God in a bad light.



I can turn into a dinosaur. What's that, you don't believe me? You want me to prove it? You want me to turn into a dinosaur in front of your very eyes?

Well, i could, but y'see, the fact you don't believe me means you aren't worthy of seeing me turn into a dinosaur. Maybe if you had genuinely believed me I would do it, but your lack of belief means that you get nothing.

When you believe me, let me know, and then I'll show you.



How do you know it was God, and not, y'know, the doctors? How have you eliminated every single explanation other than God?



Accomplish justice and the salvation of souls, and yet by your own admission he is withholding evidence from unbelievers - the very thing required to achieve salvation!

And saying, "God works in mysterious ways" or anything of the sort is basically saying that it makes no sense to you, yet you believe it any way...



Look, GA777, the simple fact is that many atheists have sought, sought longer and harder than some Christians. Some people who are now atheists were once people who longed desperately to be Christian. And yet when they sought,m they found nothing, and sooner or later, they reached the inevitable conclusion.

Why is it that you have such a hard time realising that people can do the same things that you did and yet reach a different conclusion? Why do Christians so often say, "Well, if you only tried harder...?" The fact is that many people did try, and the fault is not in them, but the fact that there is just nothing out there.



They claim it because they want to believe it. People have a strange ability to justify anything that they want to believe. So if they desire to believe in God, then they will latch onto anything which gives them an opportunity to justify their faith. That's why so many people discount evolution based on the pseudo-science of creationists. Not because they have examined both sides and found that the pseudo-science works better, but because they want to believe creationism, and if they are given a reason - any reason - to believe it, they'll grab onto that reason, push evolution away and hold onto their pseudo-science no matter what. People will believe whatever they want to, provided they have a half-cocked reason for doing so. The only way to avoid this is to subject beliefs and opinions to rigorous testing - which is exactly what science does.



But it does mean that, for the person on the other end, he may as well believe that you aren't home. That is the message you are sending him, isn't it? When it comes to God, this is called atheism.

1- It’s not an excuse, It’s a fact. This clearly shows how much you understand from the bible.


2- Who told you they get no help? Again, this clearly shows that you know nothing about the will of God.I don’t need to explain further because you’re not worth it,as you’ll type all the possible wrong statements, and I would have to correct them one by one until you run out of accusations.


3- He can do that himself,or through angelic beings. Again, I’ve never said that help can only be done by humans, in fact most of it comes from angelic beings. You interpreted this wrong, again.
Because his will is fulfilling justice and salvation, Again.
If the person is worthy to get the miracles through him, and deserves so, God would make miracles through him, if he deserves to be admired by the people. When someone does something special in the eyes of God, God rewards him too, this can be a reward. This is one of the many reasons. And he always did miracles through the prophets, so this proves that your knowledge about the bible is completely weak.

4- No thanks.

5- Because the doctors said the daughter’s life was completely hopeless, and even gave a countdown about when she must die, which was of course, a few days, and even stopped working because working would have been completely useless. The father got so hopeless and got desperate that he prayed endlessly for the 1st time to Jesus, and promised that he’ll convert himself, his family and help people come to Christ, and 1 night later, he dreamed that he was praying and suddenly heard a voice saying something like this “don’t worry, your girl will be ok.”… and of course he believed so, but did the tests to be sure, and doctors were surprised, that some even converted (after telling them what happened) . It was a miracle 100%, and even was recorded in a newspaper. But of course, there must be something wrong. It’s impossible that he’s hallucinating here, so he’s making things up of course, and all the people must be dumb enough to believe him, he converted for a dumb reason and lived a complete desperate life to make it seem more real.

6- “Salvation of the souls and JUSTICE”.HE needs to get people saved by doing justice, so your statement is wrong.
Because there are things he hides from us. And we are fooler than the fools compared to him,so we cant understand any of his actions if there was no bible. But he caused 1 book representing him to be made so we can know about him what he wants us to know.

7- Because they didn’t seek from all their heart. And Christians already believe in Jesus existence, why should he show/prove them that he exists? If he’d do that, he would prove this to unbelievers. But when believers pray and try to satisfy God, they’ll get enough proof. But the usual problem is this for the converts to atheism: People mistake God by Santa Claus, and tend to make lists of their needs and send them to God, and wouldn’t waste their time praying or satisfying God, so of course, they don’t get much and they start complaining.
Then how were countless prayers answered in a wonderful way? 2 miracles are enough to prove that God exists, but there are countless which keep happening every now and then. He only does what is just, and excels in this. He knows everyone’s deepest thoughts, and what they would think years after now. So he knows exactly what must be done. So it’s surely that they did it wrong because he answered countless of others too. The problem is that people don’t know how/where/when to search for God. For example, most search for God because of their selfishness instead of love, as he can give them eternal life …

8- Yes, But There’s a huge difference when there is countless of witnesses and proofs of the supernatural world, there can be no more possible proof . It is clear that God wanted faith, he wanted faith from people. You may not understand its value, but when someone’s love to God is normal, a God whom he doesn’t see or hear, would be equal to a great love to someone the person sees. So if X loves God greatly without seeing him, it would be the undescribable love God wants us to have, so maybe in eternity we will be able to love him much more, and nothing like what happened with the rebellion of angels would happen again. And If someone, like you’re stating, clearly wants to seek God and find him, he’ll travel the world searching for witnesses, or pray A LOT. And of course, everyone starts believing after doing so. That’s why God told us to seek from all our heart, because the more someone seeks, the better the results, and if you seek weakly, you get weak results. Science is based on the reason and logic of humans, so theories keep changing when knowledge increases and because of our logic and reasoning, we’re destroying our nature and our world and people have much changed when this knowledge is being learnt. And if you really searched on the internet for evidence, you’ll easily understand that the supernatural world is real.

 

[Eudaimonist]

If you're not taking me on my word,then why do you take others on theirs before seeing your proof?

Can you provide a few examples for discussion? I would love to discuss with you just how I view those situations.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[AV1611VET]

Can you provide a few examples for discussion? I would love to discuss with you just how I view those situations.

Do you believe Pluto should have been downgraded, in light of this:

Only four percent of the IAU voted on the controversial demotion of Pluto, and most are not planetary scientists. The vote was conducted in violation of the IAU's own bylaws on the last day of a two-week conference when most attendees already had left. No absentee voting was allowed. Supporters of the demotion resolution violated the IAU's own bylaws by putting this resolution on the General Assembly floor without first vetting it by the proper committee as IAU rules require. Also, many planetary scientists do not belong to the IAU and therefore had no say in this matter. When professional astronomers objecting to the demotion asked for a reopening of the planet debate at the 2009 IAU General Assembly, the IAU leadership adamantly refused. Why would they refuse to reopen a debate unless they were insecure about their stand? Meanwhile, this issue continues to be debated in other venues, such as the 2008 Great Planet Debate, held at the Johns Hopkins University Applied Physics Lab in August 2008 (which I personally attended), the American Geophysical Union, and the European Geophysical Union.


The IAU decision was immediately opposed in a formal petition by hundreds of professional astronomers led by Dr. Alan Stern, Principal Investigator of NASA’s New Horizons mission to Pluto. One reason the IAU definition makes no sense is it says dwarf planets are not planets at all! That is like saying a grizzly bear is not a bear, and it is inconsistent with the use of the term “dwarf” in astronomy, where dwarf stars are still stars, and dwarf galaxies are still galaxies. Also, the IAU definition classifies objects solely by where they are while ignoring what they are. If Earth were in Pluto’s orbit, according to the IAU definition, it would not be a planet either. A definition that takes the same object and makes it a planet in one location and not a planet in another is essentially useless.


Pluto is a planet because it is spherical, meaning it is large enough to be pulled into a round shape by its own gravity--a state known as hydrostatic equilibrium and characteristic of planets, not of shapeless asteroids held together by chemical bonds. These reasons are why many astronomers, lay people, and educators are either ignoring the demotion entirely or working to get it overturned. You can find out more by Googling "Laurel's Pluto Blog."
A decision should not be blindly accepted as some sort of gospel truth because a small number of people decreed it so. The IAU can decree the sky is green, but that doesn't make it any less blue.

 

[Eudaimonist]

Do you believe Pluto should have been downgraded, in light of this:

I don't care if Pluto is viewed as a planet or not. It's all just a matter of definitions. This is very much a non-issue for me.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Nostromo]

Then why doesnt the FSM answer any?

In crushing blow to atheists, FSM answers prayers big-time. : atheism
TeenSpot.com - Teen Message Boards - FSM answers prayers, ID is out of Florida..
Now that the FSM answered my prayer that there would be no rapture, why do people still disbelieve? - Yahoo! UK & Ireland Answers
http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&so...sg=AFQjCNGQO4YwCsy9b7q7Cn7gMvtjXofx8Q&cad=rja

etc.

 

[AV1611VET]

I don't care if Pluto is viewed as a planet or not. It's all just a matter of definitions. This is very much a non-issue for me.

So you want someone to play Twenty Questions with you? is that it?

 

[Eudaimonist]

So you want someone to play Twenty Questions with you? is that it?

You didn't ask me a question about knowledge and taking someone's word for something. I was responding to: "If you're not taking me on my word,then why do you take others on theirs before seeing your proof?"

What does proof have to do with their choice of definitions? Redefining Pluto's status as a planet didn't change my knowledge of Pluto. It simply offered a new category, and one that I could just as easily have ignored.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[AV1611VET]

You didn't ask me a question about knowledge and taking someone's word for something. I was responding to: "If you're not taking me on my word,then why do you take others on theirs before seeing your proof?"

What does proof have to do with their choice of definitions? Redefining Pluto's status as a planet didn't change my knowledge of Pluto. It simply offered a new category, and one that I could just as easily have ignored.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Did you not make this statement, Mark?

Can you provide a few examples for discussion? I would love to discuss with you just how I view those situations.

I responded with the Pluto issue as an example, and you responded as you did.

Like I'm fond of saying, responding to you guys just makes things worse around here.

 

[Jazer]

So when one would occasionaly appear to be answered it was positive confirmation and those times when it wasn't it wasn't a problem because you knew it was something you had to figure out on your own.

We do not ever have to figure out anything on our own. God always "explains" things to us, He gives us understanding. Let me give you an example. If my tummy was hurting me and I prayed for God to heal me. Then maybe God would give me understanding that there is something I am eating that I should not be eating. Moses gives us guidelines for what we should and should not eat, but also God through the Holy Spirit will guide us. Actually the doctors right now have me on a low salt diet. That means I have to cook all my own foods because just about all processed foods have to much salt and that is not suppose to be good for us. There is nothing in the Bible about that, so perhaps God will use the doctors to show me what I need to do. Either ways I do not eat salt, I do not retain water and my health is a lot better. Did God answer prayer? Yes He did by giving me wisdom, knowledge and understanding.

Jeremiah 29:13-14(NKJV)
And you will seek Me and find Me, when
you search for Me with all your heart.
I will be found by you, says the LORD

We are told we have to pray it through. Pray until God gives us peace. There are times when we have to wait on the Lord. He does not change so really He is waiting on us. As we wait for an answer or wait to receive what we want to ask from Him. For example, once I prayed and asked God to give me understanding about the passage that says to give all we have to the poor. I did not understand what that means until I was in the Philippines where there are people that just have less then we have here in this country. I realize then that I am not going to take more then I need, because there are others who have needs greater then mine. If I have compassion for them then I will want to do all I can to help. In American this is something difficult to understand. In a third world nation, this is a lot easier to understand what Jesus was teaching.

 

[Eudaimonist]

Did you not make this statement, Mark?

Yes, I did.

I responded with the Pluto issue as an example, and you responded as you did.

I offered a target for you to hit that was a mile wide, and you still managed to turn around in the opposite direction and miss.


eudaimonia,

Mark