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A Parable about Age

Discussion in 'Physical & Life Sciences' started by AV1611VET, Sep 8, 2011.

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  1. sandwiches

    sandwiches Mas sabe el diablo por viejo que por diablo.

    +111
    Atheist
    Single
    Which just so happens that when reality contradicts a book, the book can take a hike.
     
  2. Tinker Grey

    Tinker Grey Wanderer Supporter

    +3,701
    Atheist
    Nothing in that verse is about choosing to believe.
     
  3. razeontherock

    razeontherock Well-Known Member

    +1,316
    Christian
    Single
    It's really not that difficult. I have seen many, many "effects on reality" from prayer. Indisputable, countless times. Things ranging from life-saving miracles in dire emergencies, to the trivial and mundane.

    None of this was under controlled circumstances, nor is it repeatable, nor is it under human control in any sense of the word, which places it squarely outside the realm of science.

    You (the collective you here can be used just as well) on the other hand, claim to be a former Christian. You also claim 0 first-hand experience with either prayer or Faith making a whit of difference.

    Funny definition of "christian," that. No, this does not make you a "former Christian," but it does bolster your atheism which is understandable.

    (And apparently I missed AV's statement that the Bible was written to an audience of 5 year olds. Got link?)
     
  4. razeontherock

    razeontherock Well-Known Member

    +1,316
    Christian
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    Your 2 sentences do not logically follow. In the first sentence, you accurately paraphrase that understanding prayer is not a scientific pursuit, nor does it involve scientific requirements. The fact that this is outside the realm of science does not mean we "can't detect any effects from prayer."
     
  5. razeontherock

    razeontherock Well-Known Member

    +1,316
    Christian
    Single
    That is true, it is about choosing whom you will serve.
     
  6. Nathan Poe

    Nathan Poe Well-Known Member

    +1,589
    Agnostic
    US-Democrat
    If anecdotal evidence is all you have, so be it -- at least give us an example of something you claim to have seen, and we'll decide for ourselves if there's a possible causal connection.
     
  7. razeontherock

    razeontherock Well-Known Member

    +1,316
    Christian
    Single
    Just came across a wonderful literal translation straight from the Greek, that describes not only what sandwiches and I have been discussing, but what is happening here; all in the same breath:

    "If-ever any ye should be asking in My name, I shall be doing. If ever ye may be loving Me, the My commands be keeping and I shall be asking the Father and another comforter, the spirit of the truth, He shall be giving to ye that may remain with ye into the age, which the world not is able to be receiving, that not it is seeing it, neither is knowing it. Ye yet are knowing it, that beside ye is abiding and in ye shall be."
     
  8. razeontherock

    razeontherock Well-Known Member

    +1,316
    Christian
    Single
    I know you better than that, and I also know the Word of God better than to do so. Even your language in just this little snip betrays your intentions.
     
  9. Nathan Poe

    Nathan Poe Well-Known Member

    +1,589
    Agnostic
    US-Democrat
    So, you still have nothing but excuses, then.
     
  10. Jazer

    Jazer Guest

    +0
    The verse is about the song Bob Dylan use to sing. You gonna have to serve someone.
    It maybe the devil or it maybe the Lord, but your gonna have to serve somebody.

    You may be an ambassador to England or France
    You may like to gamble you might like to dance
    You may be the heavyweight champion of the world
    You may be a socialite with a long string of pearls.

    But you're gonna have to serve somebody yes indeed
    You're gonna have to serve somebody
    It may be the devil or it may be the Lord
    But you're gonna have to serve somebody.

    Might be a rock'n' roll adict prancing on the stage
    Might have money and drugs at your commands women in a cage
    You may be a business man or some high degree thief
    They may call you Doctor or they may call you Chief.

    But you're gonna have to serve somebody yes indeed
    You're gonna have to serve somebody
    Well it may be the devil or it may be the Lord
    But you're gonna have to serve somebody.

    You may be a state trooper you might be an young turk
    You may be the head of some big TV network
    You may be rich or poor you may be blind or lame
    You may be living in another country under another name.

    But you're gonna have to serve somebody yes
    You're gonna have to serve somebody
    Well it may be the devil or it may be the Lord
    But you're gonna have to serve somebody.

    You may be a construction worker working on a home
    You may be living in a mansion or you might live in a dome
    You might own guns and you might even own tanks
    You might be somebody's landlord you might even own banks.

    But you're gonna have to serve somebody yes
    You're gonna have to serve somebody
    Well it may be the devil or it may be the Lord
    But you're gonna have to serve somebody.

    You may be a preacher with your spiritual pride
    You may be a city councilman taking bribes on the side
    You may be working in a barbershop you may know how to cut hair
    You may be somebody's mistress may be somebody's heir.

    But you're gonna have to serve somebody yes
    You're gonna have to serve somebody
    Well it may be the devil or it may be the Lord
    But you're gonna have to serve somebody.

    Might like to wear cotton might like to wear silk
    Might like to drink whiskey might like to drink milk
    You might like to eat caviar you might like to eat bread
    You may be sleeping on the floor sleeping in a king-sized bed.

    But you're gonna have to serve somebody yes indeed
    You're gonna have to serve somebody
    It may be the devil or it may be the Lord
    But you're gonna have to serve somebody.

    You may call me Terry you may call me Jimmy
    You may call me Bobby you may call me Zimmy
    You may call me R.J. you may call me Ray
    You may call me anything but no matter what you say.

    You're gonna have to serve somebody yes indeed
    You're gonna have to serve somebody
    Well it may be the devil or it may be the Lord
    But you're gonna have to serve somebody.
     
  11. Tinker Grey

    Tinker Grey Wanderer Supporter

    +3,701
    Atheist
    Love Bob Dylan and I love the song. Nevertheless, neither the song nor the Bible verse are about choosing to believe.

    The presumption of both is that you already believe but you must choose to act accordingly.
     
  12. Nathan Poe

    Nathan Poe Well-Known Member

    +1,589
    Agnostic
    US-Democrat
    I had no idea Dylan was that old... :p
     
  13. razeontherock

    razeontherock Well-Known Member

    +1,316
    Christian
    Single
    .
     
  14. thaumaturgy

    thaumaturgy Well-Known Member

    +858
    Atheist
    Married
    Nothing in the real world is outside the realm of science unless we choose to keep it apart from science.

    You have experiences in your life that you attribute to prayer. That's fine. However since they were not "repeatable" nor under any sort of controlled circumstance doesn't mean they are outside of science, just that they are not up to the level of science.

    They are, as Nathan P. pointed out: anecdotal data.

    They may have been real or not, but you will probably fail to convince anyone who is not already primed to "believe".

    I tried prayer it did little for me. I didn't feel any sort of experiences that I couldn't apply to just the world around me or what my brain was processing. No miracles, no incredible insights that could not be more mundanely explained.

    But if you experienced something from prayer than good for you!
     
  15. thaumaturgy

    thaumaturgy Well-Known Member

    +858
    Atheist
    Married
    Well, why did you bring up the point that you have had experiences that make you feel prayer works?

    Seems to me you have hinted at something and now wish to not tell us the rest of the story.

    (Not that something you yourself have indicated is largely anecdotal will convince some of us, but if you bring up the topic I hardly think it is beyond the pale for Nathan to ask for more information.)
     
  16. quatona

    quatona "God"? What do you mean??

    +4,189
    Seeker
    Yet you seem to be reluctant when it comes to telling us about those "indisputable" effects. That gives me the impression that they are indeed disputable - you just don´t want to see them put to scrutinity and disputed.

    That may become a problem at some point. At this point, however, the problem is a different one:
    Even if we assume that these things you don´t want to tell us about did happen - your interpretation (e.g. of cause and effect) is still your interpretation and of course subject to dispute.
     
  17. AV1611VET

    AV1611VET BELIEVE IN MIRACLES Supporter

    +42,005
    United States
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Republican
    What's the real reason you want him to give an example, quatona?

    So you can just play the Arbitrary Denial card and add a notch to your ego?

    Suppose someone says their goldfish died, and they prayed, and it came back alive?

    Now what?

    You'll come back with some bologna about its inability to be confirmed, right?

    Who are you really trying to kid here?
    Like you would do that if he gave you an example.

    I'm sure your ineffectual, myopic science is going to suddenly confirm or deny his claim, isn't it?

    Let science do what it does best -- build us a better moustrap -- and keep their ten-cent clipboards out of our Bibles, eh?
     
  18. driewerf

    driewerf a day at the Zoo

    +1,258
    Atheist
    Married
    That's why praying for rain, state wide, doesn't work.

    “OK Pray For Rain Results Are In” by Old Fart Rants |

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  19. quatona

    quatona "God"? What do you mean??

    +4,189
    Seeker
    I would like to know what sort of interpretation he finds "undisputable".

    Let´s not discuss my person, let´s not discuss my intentions and motives. Let´s for arguments sake assume that I am a mean-spirited ego-filled guy of the most disgusting kind.
    Now that that´s out of the way...can I get a more objective response from you to a perfectly justified request (that wasn´t even directed at you)?

    No. I already said I would accept the reported facts for purposes of this discussion.

    You seem to aspire to get a foot in the psychic business. Don´t quit your dayjob.
     
  20. Jazer

    Jazer Guest

    +0
    They would claim the goldfish never died. If there was a test they would claim there was a false reading on the test. If someone in Africa is cured of aids they say the test was in error and they never had aids in the first place.
     
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