A Parable about Age

Status
Not open for further replies.

sandwiches

Mas sabe el diablo por viejo que por diablo.
Jun 16, 2009
6,104
124
45
Dallas, Texas
✟22,030.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Which just so happens -- (by coincidence of course) -- to go in spite of the Bible, not with respect to It.

Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Which just so happens that when reality contradicts a book, the book can take a hike.
 
Upvote 0

Tinker Grey

Wanderer
Supporter
Feb 6, 2002
11,214
5,606
Erewhon
Visit site
✟923,468.00
Faith
Atheist
Which just so happens -- (by coincidence of course) -- to go in spite of the Bible, not with respect to It.

Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Nothing in that verse is about choosing to believe.
 
Upvote 0

razeontherock

Well-Known Member
May 24, 2010
26,545
1,480
WI
✟35,597.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
then agreeing with me that prayer does nothing, as far as we are able to tell with our human senses.

we do not have the capacity to observe or detect any effects on reality from prayer.

the effectiveness of prayer cannot be truly be measured. Now it can be? Either the effects can be measured or they can't. Period. Make up your mind.

It's really not that difficult. I have seen many, many "effects on reality" from prayer. Indisputable, countless times. Things ranging from life-saving miracles in dire emergencies, to the trivial and mundane.

None of this was under controlled circumstances, nor is it repeatable, nor is it under human control in any sense of the word, which places it squarely outside the realm of science.

You (the collective you here can be used just as well) on the other hand, claim to be a former Christian. You also claim 0 first-hand experience with either prayer or Faith making a whit of difference.

Funny definition of "christian," that. No, this does not make you a "former Christian," but it does bolster your atheism which is understandable.

(And apparently I missed AV's statement that the Bible was written to an audience of 5 year olds. Got link?)
 
Upvote 0

razeontherock

Well-Known Member
May 24, 2010
26,545
1,480
WI
✟35,597.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
More to the point, you're claiming that prayer cannot even be measured scientifically by the nonscientific requirements you established. Which is in itself a concession that the effects of prayer cannot be empirically observed, that is that we cannot detect any effects from prayer.

Your 2 sentences do not logically follow. In the first sentence, you accurately paraphrase that understanding prayer is not a scientific pursuit, nor does it involve scientific requirements. The fact that this is outside the realm of science does not mean we "can't detect any effects from prayer."
 
Upvote 0

Nathan Poe

Well-Known Member
Sep 21, 2002
32,198
1,693
49
United States
✟41,319.00
Faith
Agnostic
Politics
US-Democrat
It's really not that difficult. I have seen many, many "effects on reality" from prayer. Indisputable, countless times. Things ranging from life-saving miracles in dire emergencies, to the trivial and mundane.

None of this was under controlled circumstances, nor is it repeatable, nor is it under human control in any sense of the word, which places it squarely outside the realm of science.

If anecdotal evidence is all you have, so be it -- at least give us an example of something you claim to have seen, and we'll decide for ourselves if there's a possible causal connection.
 
Upvote 0

razeontherock

Well-Known Member
May 24, 2010
26,545
1,480
WI
✟35,597.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Just came across a wonderful literal translation straight from the Greek, that describes not only what sandwiches and I have been discussing, but what is happening here; all in the same breath:

"If-ever any ye should be asking in My name, I shall be doing. If ever ye may be loving Me, the My commands be keeping and I shall be asking the Father and another comforter, the spirit of the truth, He shall be giving to ye that may remain with ye into the age, which the world not is able to be receiving, that not it is seeing it, neither is knowing it. Ye yet are knowing it, that beside ye is abiding and in ye shall be."
 
Upvote 0
Nothing in that verse is about choosing to believe.
The verse is about the song Bob Dylan use to sing. You gonna have to serve someone.
It maybe the devil or it maybe the Lord, but your gonna have to serve somebody.

You may be an ambassador to England or France
You may like to gamble you might like to dance
You may be the heavyweight champion of the world
You may be a socialite with a long string of pearls.

But you're gonna have to serve somebody yes indeed
You're gonna have to serve somebody
It may be the devil or it may be the Lord
But you're gonna have to serve somebody.

Might be a rock'n' roll adict prancing on the stage
Might have money and drugs at your commands women in a cage
You may be a business man or some high degree thief
They may call you Doctor or they may call you Chief.

But you're gonna have to serve somebody yes indeed
You're gonna have to serve somebody
Well it may be the devil or it may be the Lord
But you're gonna have to serve somebody.

You may be a state trooper you might be an young turk
You may be the head of some big TV network
You may be rich or poor you may be blind or lame
You may be living in another country under another name.

But you're gonna have to serve somebody yes
You're gonna have to serve somebody
Well it may be the devil or it may be the Lord
But you're gonna have to serve somebody.

You may be a construction worker working on a home
You may be living in a mansion or you might live in a dome
You might own guns and you might even own tanks
You might be somebody's landlord you might even own banks.

But you're gonna have to serve somebody yes
You're gonna have to serve somebody
Well it may be the devil or it may be the Lord
But you're gonna have to serve somebody.

You may be a preacher with your spiritual pride
You may be a city councilman taking bribes on the side
You may be working in a barbershop you may know how to cut hair
You may be somebody's mistress may be somebody's heir.

But you're gonna have to serve somebody yes
You're gonna have to serve somebody
Well it may be the devil or it may be the Lord
But you're gonna have to serve somebody.

Might like to wear cotton might like to wear silk
Might like to drink whiskey might like to drink milk
You might like to eat caviar you might like to eat bread
You may be sleeping on the floor sleeping in a king-sized bed.

But you're gonna have to serve somebody yes indeed
You're gonna have to serve somebody
It may be the devil or it may be the Lord
But you're gonna have to serve somebody.

You may call me Terry you may call me Jimmy
You may call me Bobby you may call me Zimmy
You may call me R.J. you may call me Ray
You may call me anything but no matter what you say.

You're gonna have to serve somebody yes indeed
You're gonna have to serve somebody
Well it may be the devil or it may be the Lord
But you're gonna have to serve somebody.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Tinker Grey

Wanderer
Supporter
Feb 6, 2002
11,214
5,606
Erewhon
Visit site
✟923,468.00
Faith
Atheist
The verse is about the song Bob Dylan use to sing.
*snip*

Love Bob Dylan and I love the song. Nevertheless, neither the song nor the Bible verse are about choosing to believe.

The presumption of both is that you already believe but you must choose to act accordingly.
 
Upvote 0

thaumaturgy

Well-Known Member
Nov 17, 2006
7,541
882
✟12,333.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
It's really not that difficult. I have seen many, many "effects on reality" from prayer. Indisputable, countless times. Things ranging from life-saving miracles in dire emergencies, to the trivial and mundane.

None of this was under controlled circumstances, nor is it repeatable, nor is it under human control in any sense of the word, which places it squarely outside the realm of science.

Nothing in the real world is outside the realm of science unless we choose to keep it apart from science.

You have experiences in your life that you attribute to prayer. That's fine. However since they were not "repeatable" nor under any sort of controlled circumstance doesn't mean they are outside of science, just that they are not up to the level of science.

They are, as Nathan P. pointed out: anecdotal data.

They may have been real or not, but you will probably fail to convince anyone who is not already primed to "believe".

You (the collective you here can be used just as well) on the other hand, claim to be a former Christian. You also claim 0 first-hand experience with either prayer or Faith making a whit of difference.

I tried prayer it did little for me. I didn't feel any sort of experiences that I couldn't apply to just the world around me or what my brain was processing. No miracles, no incredible insights that could not be more mundanely explained.

But if you experienced something from prayer than good for you!
 
Upvote 0

thaumaturgy

Well-Known Member
Nov 17, 2006
7,541
882
✟12,333.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
I know you better than that, and I also know the Word of God better than to do so. Even your language in just this little snip betrays your intentions.

Well, why did you bring up the point that you have had experiences that make you feel prayer works?

Seems to me you have hinted at something and now wish to not tell us the rest of the story.

(Not that something you yourself have indicated is largely anecdotal will convince some of us, but if you bring up the topic I hardly think it is beyond the pale for Nathan to ask for more information.)
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

quatona

"God"? What do you mean??
May 15, 2005
37,512
4,301
✟175,292.00
Faith
Seeker
It's really not that difficult. I have seen many, many "effects on reality" from prayer. Indisputable, countless times. Things ranging from life-saving miracles in dire emergencies, to the trivial and mundane.
Yet you seem to be reluctant when it comes to telling us about those "indisputable" effects. That gives me the impression that they are indeed disputable - you just don´t want to see them put to scrutinity and disputed.

None of this was under controlled circumstances, nor is it repeatable, nor is it under human control in any sense of the word, which places it squarely outside the realm of science.
That may become a problem at some point. At this point, however, the problem is a different one:
Even if we assume that these things you don´t want to tell us about did happen - your interpretation (e.g. of cause and effect) is still your interpretation and of course subject to dispute.
 
Upvote 0

AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
Supporter
Jun 18, 2006
3,850,672
51,419
Guam
✟4,896,791.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Yet you seem to be reluctant when it comes to telling us about those "indisputable" effects.
What's the real reason you want him to give an example, quatona?

So you can just play the Arbitrary Denial card and add a notch to your ego?

Suppose someone says their goldfish died, and they prayed, and it came back alive?

Now what?

You'll come back with some bologna about its inability to be confirmed, right?

Who are you really trying to kid here?
That gives me the impression that they are indeed disputable - you just don´t want to see them put to scrutinity and disputed.
Like you would do that if he gave you an example.

I'm sure your ineffectual, myopic science is going to suddenly confirm or deny his claim, isn't it?

Let science do what it does best -- build us a better moustrap -- and keep their ten-cent clipboards out of our Bibles, eh?
 
Upvote 0

driewerf

a day at the Zoo
Mar 7, 2010
3,308
1,892
✟257,846.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
It's really not that difficult. I have seen many, many "effects on reality" from prayer. Indisputable, countless times. Things ranging from life-saving miracles in dire emergencies, to the trivial and mundane.
That's why praying for rain, state wide, doesn't work.

Well the results are in and they don’t look good for prayer working. I did a video recently called “Pray For Rain” about Governor Mary Fallin asking all Oklahomans to pray to the God that’s been making them so miserable with a record heatwave and drought to make it rain please – thank you very much – amen! Well guess what – it didn’t rain in Oklahoma — looks like another nail in the coffin of the myth that prayer actually works.
“OK Pray For Rain Results Are In” by Old Fart Rants |

perry_rain_prayer1.jpg


drought.jpe
 
Upvote 0

quatona

"God"? What do you mean??
May 15, 2005
37,512
4,301
✟175,292.00
Faith
Seeker
What's the real reason you want him to give an example, quatona?
I would like to know what sort of interpretation he finds "undisputable".

So you can just play the Arbitrary Denial card and add a notch to your ego?
Let´s not discuss my person, let´s not discuss my intentions and motives. Let´s for arguments sake assume that I am a mean-spirited ego-filled guy of the most disgusting kind.
Now that that´s out of the way...can I get a more objective response from you to a perfectly justified request (that wasn´t even directed at you)?

Suppose someone says their goldfish died, and they prayed, and it came back alive?

Now what?

You'll come back with some bologna about its inability to be confirmed, right?
No. I already said I would accept the reported facts for purposes of this discussion.

Who are you really trying to kid here?

Like you would do that if he gave you an example.

I'm sure your ineffectual, myopic science is going to suddenly confirm or deny his claim, isn't it?
You seem to aspire to get a foot in the psychic business. Don´t quit your dayjob.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
Suppose someone says their goldfish died, and they prayed, and it came back alive?

Now what?
They would claim the goldfish never died. If there was a test they would claim there was a false reading on the test. If someone in Africa is cured of aids they say the test was in error and they never had aids in the first place.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.