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A forever hell

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by KisKatte, May 1, 2021.

  1. Shrewd Manager

    Shrewd Manager Through him, in all things, more than conquerors. Supporter

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    So where do the repentant nations come from in Revelation 21:24 if all the unbelievers have been thrown in the fire in Revelation 20:15 and Revelation 21:8? And why are we told the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations in Revelation 22:2?
     
  2. 2BeholdHisGlory

    2BeholdHisGlory Still on vacation!

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    I know what its like to wrangle with them and I am not interested in all tiresome the back and forths they try to keep going. I am not interested in universalism threads, had enough of them.

    I read a little, on the back end, someone had posted about dead means dead (and that was it) and so I simply posted the verse "she who liveth in pleasure (not self denial) is dead while they liveth (along with another) to show its not always the case (providing exampes) and what is typical is you posted back on dying daily for Christ, and so as it appears it will be endless scripture pitting which I am also familar with how this goes and then a flood of ones own words attached to a verse. I just am not into that (I have stated so much before). And so I am not taking up a discussion on unversalism just because I posted a couple of verses that show dead is not always mean dead in the way the one post indicated (in this life). Thats all, it had nothing to do the verse dying daily (in self denial) for Christ, and I couldn't tell where you were going, until it dawned on me that you could be a universalist which I spent enough years already examining it and am done with any further discussions of it.

    But you have done your own examination of it and have decided for it yourself and I wont be the one to volunteer to sit here and try to change your mind. Not interested, most of them argue till the cows come home (and longer) and more often than not they make really bad verse connections. But I will say, who wouldnt want it to be true? Sounded great to me too but just because it sounded great did not make it true. but like I said I spent enough years looking at it and I am satisfied but no its not a denial of Christ its a denial of their doctrine.

    I will no longer reply to you on this, if I dont do that it will never end.
     
  3. Shrewd Manager

    Shrewd Manager Through him, in all things, more than conquerors. Supporter

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    Not really, but I do sympathise. It must be hard when ppl are irritating you with the pesky idea that God's not a psychokiller.

    Thanks for your patience and your forbearance in these difficult times.
     
  4. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Disciple Supporter

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    Nowhere does it say that those people of those nations were people that came out of hades or hell or the lake of fire, and nowhere does it say that they were "repentant" either, those nations are what's left after the judgement and final judgement and after Armageddon...

    Unless you can show me otherwise, etc...?

    Anyway,

    God Bless!
     
  5. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    Mat_10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

    Eze_18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
    Eze_18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
    Eze_33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
    Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
    Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
    Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
    Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

    Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
    Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

    Ignore if you wish. Youi always do.
     
  6. Shrewd Manager

    Shrewd Manager Through him, in all things, more than conquerors. Supporter

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    Traditionally, the nations are the enemies of God's people, fair enough? But we are told back in Revelation 15:4 that all the nations will come and worship. This is consistent with the Abrahamic covenant (all nations blessed) the Koreshic oath (every knee will bow), and the most futuristic Bible prophecy (God will be all in all). So the nations do indeed come and worship in the consummation in Rev 21:24. By worshiping they show they have repented, fair enough?

    You don't have to believe the nations pre-repentance as unbelievers dead in their sins and trespasses, are thrown into the LoF, but something happens to convert them from their hatred of God back in Rev 20:7 (armies surround Jerusalem) to the 'wolf lies down with lamb' result. 'And the leaves of the tree of life were for the healing of the nations' (Rev 22:2).

    That's the narrative. You don't have to like it. But it's good news for all mankind, and gives great glory to God, who sent His son to save the whole world.
     
  7. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    The gathering, by Satan, of all the wicked obviously happens before they are devoured by the fire from God---that is the lake of fire.
    It is for the healing of the nations---the saints are all resurrected with glorified bodies. At the Tree, it is national grievances, hatreds, and such that are healed.
     
  8. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Disciple Supporter

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    Revelation 15:4 is talking about what's left of the nations and what's left of the people in them, after the wrath of God was finished and/or over, and many many people died, etc, and it does not say that those ones were even repentant, or needed to repent (although they probably were, etc) but my point is your saying it, and people like you saying it, when it is just simply "not there", etc, because that's exactly what you have to do to make universalist narrative/doctrine make sense, etc, and be in line with the rest of the Bible, etc...

    This doesn't even make sense, what do you mean by "the nations pre-repentance as unbelievers dead in their sins and trespasses, are thrown into the LoF", etc...?

    People who are put into the LoF were those who either, refused to repent, or God already knew never would repent, etc...

    And there is no coming back from it, etc...

    Not the LoF, etc...

    Yes something happened to/with those remaining, they saw the wrath of God, and all the people who were killed and/or destroyed and/or cast into the LoF, and decided to repent and worship God, etc...

    Well, Universalist narrative, and your narrative here, is false, etc..

    Well, it seems that in order for it to truth to and/or for you, "you have to like it", etc, that it has to "agree with you", make you "feel good", etc, but that's not what "I base real Biblical truth on", etc...

    Are you suggesting that God can't get great glory any other way than only the way you are seeing things, etc...?

    John 3:17- "For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him "might" be saved."

    Not that all will most 100% absolutely all be saved most absolutely, etc...

    And more than likely "not" because not all will "repent", etc...

    And Jesus knew this, etc...

    And the light coming into the world automatically condemns some (John 3:19) who will not be saved (John 3:20-21) because they refuse to be saved/come to the light to be saved, etc, (John 3:20), etc...

    God Bless!
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2021
  9. KisKatte

    KisKatte Jesus, send us your Holy Spirit.

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    Dear Christians,

    you all misunderstood me completely if you think this is a debate Thread. That would be boring. I only ask what you believe. Given that you left church politics aside but took all the bible. ..... I have to say the following. God talked to me when I wanted to kill myself. Lets make the Thread more "philosophical". Means imagine all possible worlds. What if God gave us the bible and the church NOT teaching the whole truth, because it would not be good for us? I know reincarnation exists and God answered me also WHY the church he wants to teach otherwise! Because it is NOT GOOD for us to know thw whole truth. Not for everybody. So given that just imagine a God who punishes never without reason. You kill somebody, next life you are ill. But someday you will be saved. You can come to hell but will be delivered someday. God created us out of Love. And that is not only what I believe, I know this by talking to God. So I do not care what is standing in the bible, because God already explained to me why it was HIS WILL the church to teach otherwise. People need this belief to be saved. Other people do not need this belief to be saved. I only asked what you believed. I was never the kind of person to think that God would give us a perfect book in THAT SENSE THAT it would replace God and His Will completely. God is almighty and he can decide what ever HE WANTS!!! And every destiny is individual, my friends! God is above church and bible, and if HE WANTS he can give a soul another chance. And it does not matter if He does this frequently or not. It is a "philosophical" statement. Imagine all possible worlds.
     
  10. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Disciple Supporter

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    The "good news" especially as compared to in the OT, etc, is that you "can be saved", or that there is "now a way for you to saved" (for Heaven now, etc) (which wasn't even possible nor available yet in the OT yet, etc) and not that "everyone and all will be saved regardless of any kind of any kind of conditions or prerequisites ever at all whatsoever", etc...

    Because that very last part, etc, just simply isn't true, etc...

    And most definitely is not at all in line with "the rest of the Bible", etc, and in fact, it's "not even close", etc...

    You have to believe, and you have to repent, and you have to acknowledge God as God, and also Jesus Christ as Lord, mainly, etc... And maybe you also have to follow and/or walk in His ways also maybe, etc...

    And I just don't see "everyone doing that" without a lot of people dying, and/or being eternally condemned, etc...

    Which is how the Bible actually says it actually will happen, or how God will truly get His final glory, etc...

    God Bless!
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2021
  11. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Disciple Supporter

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    Oh, and part of believing means putting your faith and/or hope and trust in God and Jesus Christ also, etc...

    Just thought I might have needed to add or explain that part about believing in the quoted above about the requirements or prerequisites, etc...

    And above anything else also, etc, because that could be an idol if not, or if your not, etc...

    Doesn't mean you can't have other things that might fall into that category, they just can't be above, and/or before/beyond, and/or in front of God, etc...

    You have to realize God gives them and supplies them, etc, and never be forgetting that, etc...

    God Bless!
     
  12. JulieB67

    JulieB67 Active Member

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    I left my church years ago when certain doctrines I was taught could not be backed up in the Word. Which no offense, should be the standard we live by. God is not going to change his Word to suit our "beliefs" we have to believe his Word, plain and simple.

    In saying that, I believe Hebrews 9:27 when it says man is appointed once to die. So, no I can't believe in reincarnation. Although I do believe we are born "from above" and when that silver cord breaks, we will return to the Father.

    Not looking to debate anything but only post my beliefs and I'm a scripture person first and foremost.

    But I do have one question for you, what is your belief on what the "second death" is?
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2021
  13. KisKatte

    KisKatte Jesus, send us your Holy Spirit.

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    I personally believe that if you commit an unforgivable sin God still forgives you 70 times, but anyway usually people than do not stop sinning. And if you have killed somebody or somthing done severe you can come to hell, for example a 1000 years or a hundred years or a million years. This is the second death for me, because you are destroyed in another sense your suffering is horrible. But personally I also believe not in the ressurrection! This is a fairytale from the church. I believe when you die you do not wait for ressurrection. Modern times showed as tousands of testimonies when people fly by soul to God in Heaven after death or near death experiences show us that. Even the church, at least our church, has nothing against such testimonies. So you fly to God and He decides wether you come again to earth or hell or you can even stay there and how long. This all God decides. He is pure Love.
     
  14. KarateCowboy

    KarateCowboy Classical liberal Supporter

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    It's worth nothing that some understand that eternal torture to be the natural consequence of rejecting God. Id Est, final and absolute withdrawal of God's presence makes existence Hell to an immortal soul meant to fellowship with God.
     
  15. KisKatte

    KisKatte Jesus, send us your Holy Spirit.

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    Nothing is final for a human soul. Human can imagina to reject God finaly and for ever..... but still for God this is not for ever and He will find and return His lost sheep. A Human does nothing final and for ever nothing.
     
  16. Basil the Great

    Basil the Great Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I very openly admit that I do not know for certain what will happen to us. What do I believe? Based upon all the evidence that I have obtained in my almost 70 years of living, I think that you may well be correct. Reincarnation may be the course for some souls to take, but I go back and forth on this and am not certain that such is a reality. However, reincarnation would explain about John the Baptist being Elijah. "Oh no", almost all here will say. John the Baptist only came in the "power and spirit of Elijah". Really? What did God say at the end of the Old Testament? Did God say that He would send someone with the "power and spirit of Elijah" or did He say that He would send Elijah?

    While I would like to think that all souls will be saved eventually, I have come to think more and more in recent years that this is probably not the case. I suspect that mass murderers are probably so evil that they may well never be redeemed. However, only God knows the fate of every soul. The Catholic theologian Balthasar said that we may hope that all will be saved, but we cannot assume that such is the case. I do agree with those who make the case that God would never torture a soul for all eternity. I suspect that if there is a Hell, it is a dark and lonely place and not a place of fiery torment. John Paul II taught that the New Testament's descriptions of Hell were not meant to be taken literally.

    I became convinced in my teenage years that some human souls do become ghosts after death and do not directly go to either Heaven or Hell and I have seen no evidence in the past 50+ years to change said belief. I think it is safe to say that the famous line from Shakespeare is so very, very true, as "there are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are ever dreamt of in your philosophies".

    I have also firmly believed since my teenage years that flying saucers are indeed real and that aliens are indeed visiting the Earth. While such an event, if actually true, would not directly challenge all of the traditional doctrines of Christianity, it certainly would give one pause and ask what then happens to those on other planets? Does God save them? How are they saved? Did Jesus die for them or just for the souls on Earth?

    So then, what do I believe? I believe is that there is a Creator God and that we are all called upon to love God and love our neighbor and that there is an eternal soul and that we will all be judged one day. Beyond this, I cannot say for sure what will happen.
     
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  17. KarateCowboy

    KarateCowboy Classical liberal Supporter

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    Does that include a final and forever existence in Heaven with God? Can we be in Heaven and change our minds?
     
  18. KisKatte

    KisKatte Jesus, send us your Holy Spirit.

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    That is a serious and very good question. I would never ever imagine I would one day believe what I now believe..... never. But since God talked to me I can say at least this: We WERE already in Heaven and were thrown out! Because we sinned. So if we do not sin against God and do not hurt anybody in Heaven we can stay there for ever :). That is what I suppose..... But only the small "thrown out adam of paradise" in the bible reminds us of that. God does not show us the whole truth..... only in secret descriptions. So for me now suffering is explainable. It is for repentance and for being delivered someday. I hope we all will be able someday to decide finally and for ever to stay in heaven and to never ever again reject God! I really hope so.
     
  19. Hanging by a Thread

    Hanging by a Thread Member

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    I'm starting to think that heaven and hell is right here on earth. And Hell is for those who can't find heaven.
    I think anyone who is suffering from depression knows what I mean.
    Fortunately for me, my depression started about two years ago so it hasn't been a lifelong thing like it has for some. But still, this is mental agony and it just never stops.
     
  20. Hanging by a Thread

    Hanging by a Thread Member

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    Are you saying God actually talked to you in what most would call a "supernatural" way (i.e.- did you actually hear his voice?), or are you saying he spoke to you through that "inner voice" we all have and call the holy spirit (which unfortunately for me is hard to distinguish between whether God is instructing me or my own thoughts are telling me what I think God might say)? And if he did actually talk to you, would you be willing to share what he said?
     
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