A forever hell

[Der Alte]

* * * Mat_10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

What God created He can certainly destroy but I am not aware of a single scripture Old or New Testament where God has or will destroy a single soul in hell or anywhere else.

 

[2BeholdHisGlory]

Given that, "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." (First Corinthians 15:26), I have a very simple question:

How can anyone still be dead and/or in Hell after Death has been destroyed...?

The dead are first delivered up out of death and hell in Rev 20:13. That happens before death and hell are shown cast into the Lake of fire (which is the second death)

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

So now the dead which are delivered up out of death and hell (which are no more but in the lake of fire) are alive (delivered out of both). So there is no more death and hell in the for ever and ever sense of those, but now there are those (which were dead) delivered out of death and of these it also says

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Just as it says here

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Rev 20:14 isnt the end all there.

 

[Der Alte]

It's a foul slander on God's holy name to suggest he tortures people forever if they reject him. What a petty, nasty and cruel deity that would be. I'd go so far as to say that the doctrine of eternal damnation or annihilation is how satan gets Christians to worship him unknowingly!
Our God is love, and it's the kind that goes through hell and death to retrieve every last lost sheep. Holy judgment that sets us right, not to get even. Mercy that triumphs over judgment, forgives 7 times 70 times, and amazing grace that bows every knee so that we cry out 'Abba Father'!
Glad to hear that the evil one has not made merchandise of you sister.

Since when is God influenced or limited by mankind's fickle feelings and sensibilities?
The opinions expressed here ignore the fact that God destroyed millions of mankind in a flood; men, women, old, young, children, infants by water.
God destroyed thousands of mankind; men, women, old, young, children, infants by fire.
God told Israel to enter Canaan and destroy 1000s men, women, old, young, children, infants by the sword.
For Jesus' teaching on eternal hell please see my post [#18-19] above.

 

[Der Alte]

The dead are first delivered up out of death and hell in Rev 20:13. That happens before death and hell are shown cast into the Lake of fire (which is the second death)
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
So now the dead which are delivered up out of death and hell (which are no more but in the lake of fire) are alive (delivered out of both). So there is no more death and hell in the for ever and ever sense of those, but now there are those (which were dead) delivered out of death and of these it also says
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Just as it says here
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Rev 20:14 isnt the end all there.

Hell if it refers to the grave is empty holes, empty can't be literally thrown anywhere. Death is the point in time end of life and can't be thrown anywhere but there is a scriptural answer which does not entail mixing literal with figurative. There is a "death" and "hell" which can be thrown.

Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.​

I refer to the beings in Rev 6:8 as the angel of death and the demon of hell. You can call them whatever you like. They are sentient beings and they can be thrown into hell and their power to kill terminated.
Since they have never died a first death they can't die a second death.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

[Previous post continued]

Paul used the word “aionios” eleven [11] times. It is translated “eternal/everlasting” 20 times and world 3 times. In the following 12 verses Paul defines “aionios” as eternal.

[11]Romans 5:21
(21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [aionios] life by Jesus Christ our Lord.​

In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios life” with death. “A finite period life” is not opposite death. “Aionios life” by definition here means ‘eternal life.”

[12]Ephesians 3:21
(21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [tou aionios] and ever! [ton aionion] Amen. ​

In this verse Paul parallels “tou aionios ton aionion” with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.

[13]Romans 1:20
(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
[14]Romans 16:26
(26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:​

In Rom 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26, Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, refers to God as “aionios.” Paul has used “aidios” synonymous with “aionios.” In this verse by definition “aionios” means eternal, everlasting.

[15]2 Corinthians 4:17-18
(17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal [aionios] weight of glory;
(18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal;[proskairos] but the things which are not seen are eternal [aionios]​

In this passage Paul juxtaposes “aionios” with “for a moment,” vs. 4, and “temporal,” vs. 5. “Age(s)” an indeterminate finite period, it is not the opposite of “for a moment”/”temporal/temporary” “eternal” is. “Aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[16]2 Corinthians 5:1
(1) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal [aionios] in the heavens.​

In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios house” with “earthly house which is destroyed.” Is God going to replace our destroyed earthly house with a house which only lasts a little longer and will be destroyed at the end of an age? The aionios house is not destroyed, the opposite of “is destroyed.” Thus, “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[17]1 Timothy 6:16
(16) Who only hath immortality, [aphthartos] dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting [aionios] ​

In this verse Paul paralleled “aionios” with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, God cannot be “immortal” and only exist for a finite period at the same time. Thus “aionios” by definition means “eternal.”

[18]Galatians 6:8
(8) For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; [fthora] but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. [aionios] ​

In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios” with “corruption.” “Fleshly” people reap “corruption” but spiritual people reap “life aionios,” i.e. “not corruption.” “Age(s), a finite period, is not opposite of “corruption.” Thus “aionios life” by definition here means “eternal/everlasting life.”

[19]Romans 2:7
(7) To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, [apftharsia] he will give eternal [aionios] life. ​

In this verse Paul parallels “aionios” with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, believers do not seek for “a finite period,” and “immortality” at the same time. But they can seek for “eternal life” and “immortality” at the same time. Thus by definition “aionios life” here means “eternal life.”

[20]1 Timothy 1:17.
(17) Now unto the King eternal, [aion] immortal, [aphthartos] invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever [aion] and ever [aionios]. Amen. ​

In this verse Paul parallels “aion” with “immortal.” “Aion” cannot mean “age(s),” a finite period and immortal at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”

[21]Romans 5:21
(21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [aionios] life by Jesus Christ our Lord. ​

In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios life” with death. “A finite period life” is not opposite death. “Aionios life” by definition here means ‘eternal life.”

[22]Ephesians 3:21
(21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [tou aionios] and ever! [ton aionion] Amen. ​

In this verse Paul parallels “tou aionios ton aionion” with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.

[23]Hebrews 7:24 but because Jesus lives forever [aion] he has an unchangeable [aparabatos] priesthood.​

In this verse “aion” is parallel with “unchangeable.” If “aion” means “age(s),” Jesus cannot continue for only a “finite period” and simultaneously be “unchangeable.” Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”

[24]1 Peter 1:23
(23) For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, [aphthartos] through the living and enduring word of God. …
1 Peter 1:25
(25) but the word of the Lord endures forever.[aion] " And this is the word that was preached to you.​

In verse 23 Peter parallels “word of God” with “imperishable.” The same writer, Peter, in the same writing 1 Peter, in verse 25 writes the word of God “endures eis ton aiona/unto eternity. ” The word of God is not a finite age long but imperishable. Thus by definition “aion” here means “eternity”

[25]1 Peter 5:10
(10) And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal [aionion] glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, [oligon] will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast. ​

In this verse Peter contrasted “aionios” with “little while” Jesus does not give His followers a finite period of glory then they eventually die. Thus “aionios” here, by definition, means “eternal.”

[26]Revelation 14:11
(11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:[eis aionas aionon] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.​

In this verse “aionas aionon torment” is paralleled with “no rest day or night.” If “aionas, aionon” means “a finite period” at some time they would rest, “Aionas, aionon” by definition here means “forever and forever.”
= = = = = = =

Footnotes ου μη/ou mé
●The double negative [ου μη] signifies in nowise, by no means. Θεωρήσῃ[theōrésé], denoting steady, protracted vision, is purposely used, because the promise contemplates the entire course of the believer's life in Christ. It is not, shall not die forever, but shall live eternally.[Vincent word studies]
● ④οὐ marker of reinforced negation, in combination w. μή, οὐ μή has the effect of strengthening the negation (Kühner-G. II 221–23; Schwyzer II 317; Mlt. 187–92 [a thorough treatment of NT usage]; B-D-F §365; RLudwig: D. prophet. Wort 31 ’37, 272–79; JLee, NovT 27, ’85, 18–23; B-D-F §365.—Pla., Hdt. et al. [Kühner-G. loc. cit.]; SIG 1042, 16; POxy 119, 5, 14f; 903, 16; PGM 5, 279; 13, 321; LXX; TestAbr A 8 p. 85, 11 [Stone p. 46]; JosAs 20:3; GrBar 1:7; ApcEsdr 2:7; Just., D. 141, 2). οὐ μή is the most decisive way of negativing something in the future.
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000)A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian Literature.(3rd Ed). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
● The combinations with οὐ μή also be noticed as, ουδεν οὐ μή (Lu. 10:19); οὐ μή se σε άνο ουδ ου σε εγκαταιπο (Heb. 13:5); ουκετι οὐ μή (Rev. 18:14). There is no denying the power of this accumulation of negatives. Cf. the English hymn "I'll never, no never, no never forsake."
Grammar Of The Greek New Testament In The Light Of Historical Research
By A. T. Robertson, M.A., D.D., Ll.D., Litt.D. p.1165.

Der Alte you have a gift for filling spaces my friend. Unfortunately your thesis that 'aionian' means 'eternal' is not quite correct. As well as the various translations in the NT to 'world', 'age' and 'eternal', we can look to the usage de jour. So take the Nicene Creed for example, as in the Common Book of Prayer, the last lines:

We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

Now, it's good to know firstly that the first Ecumenical Council decided against looking for the immolation of the dead and their resurrection to exquisite torture. Selah.

But perhaps more to the point, aionian is here rendered the 'world to come', and of course together with our special friend zoe. Now the next world may be endless, but that's not what 'aionian' means, that expression in the Creed for 'and his kingdom will have no end' is 'ouk este telos'. Another Greek word for endless is 'ateleutetos'.

So the aionian fire is unending, but the stay in it is only temporary - just until we get purified and overcome, leave behind the contemptible corrupt flesh for the worms to convert to good soil, and head on through the ever-open Pearly Gates for some good ol' worship and a shot of healing eau de vie.

So Matt 25:48 is warning us that we don't want to wake up to a next world of discipline, yes it could be eternal if we're unable to overcome. And the longer we resist God and cling to our own works and stubborn beliefs, the longer we'll experience the pain and time it will take to find Zoe. 'Just a taste of that water for my burning tongue,' croaks Richie.

 

[Sorn]

In that case, Death has NOT been destroyed, but Paul writes that it will be.

You misunderstand what being 'dead' means. Dead is a special word given to living things that have ceased to live, to convey they were once alive but now they are not.
Dying is the process a living thing goes through that ends with them being dead.
What God promises is that 'Dying' will be defeated. A living person will never experience dying ever again. But a person that is dead may still remain dead if God leaves them like that.

Take a cup from your kitchen, look at it, understand its well formed to hold liquids etc and perform a function.
Now throw it to the ground so it smashes.
It is no longer a cup but just chattered porcelain or clay etc or glass.
So process of smashing = process of dying (though doesn't have to be violent or sudden of course)
State of not being a cup anymore = state of being dead

What God is going to do is to make the equivalent of cups that won't smash, you can throw them to the ground but they wont smash or break anymore. So He is going to defeat smashing or breaking (ie dying, smashing = dying in this analogy)

Your understanding is like saying that God will have to un-smash every cup ever smashed otherwise death (or 'smashed' in this analogy) is not defeated. God doesn't stop or undo the state of being smashed, He stops the process of smashing.

Now, in the case of people, He may well resurrect everyone, though its clear some are not saved and either they spend eternity in Hell or go through dying again (this time soul included) in the 2nd death and then they stay that way. After this no one ever goes thru dying again but those that have gone thru 2nd death, and die again, stay that way. ie they don't exist anymore, not even in soul form.
It is perfectly consistent logically to say that at that time:
1) People who are alive or exist will no longer die, so if a living person can't die then death is defeated.
2) There will be people who existed once but no longer exist and never will exist again.

 

[2BeholdHisGlory]

Dead isnt always dead in the most literal sense, even in this life

1Ti 5:6 But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth.

The living dead can bury the physically dead

Luke 9:60 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.

 

[2BeholdHisGlory]

There is twice dead also

Jude 1:12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

 

[Shrewd Manager]

There is twice dead also

Jude 1:12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

Paul died daily, crucified with Christ.

Lest a grain of wheat fall to the ground and die, how can it grow and bring forth fruit?

And I heard a voice from heaven, saying, “Write: ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on!’” “Yes,” says the Spirit, “so that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow with them. (Rev 14:13)

Death is the sine qua non of life in Christ. Hence 'the death of death in the death of Christ' as John Owen wrote. And when death is defeated, what remains? It's life, and to the full. So the good news of the eschaton is that life triumphs, and God will be all in all.

 

[Neogaia777]

Halo there,

not very long time ago we had a discussion in our chalcedonian orthodox forum with a catholic and our orthodox priest if there is a for ever hell. Well the catholic could not name any text passeges or so but he had good reason to say hell can never be for ever. I "miss the times" so to say, do not know how to say it otherwise, when people had neither bible nor church and had themselves direct contact to God. They were better in that times. How can you think God will punish forever? This is impossible. It is so that God leads the church to say such things because we people need the anxiety to be saved! This is nothinig more than church politics. There will never be a for ever hell but a very long hell. This is absolutely enough to be afraid. enough to be saved.

God will never make someone suffer without reason and never for ever. I know this because I wanted to jump from 14th floor more than 10 years ago and God started talking to me. Therefore I also know about the frequency and possibility of reincaranation, ment that a soul can be born again(in another body on earth)! This does not change that Jesus came to earth. I wish all a good experience this year with Pascha/Easter. I would like to know your sincere opinions. Leave politics aside. Do you really think God will "kill" you for ever by never ever again delivering you from hell? You should always think the best of God, you know and use your reason also. Your reason existed before the bible. And I heard this passage is translated wrongly, it could mean for ever and it could mean one aeon/one million years or so.

The reason they all say it cannot at all be forever, even though the Bible says it is, etc, is because they do not truly know or understand what it truly is, etc, or why people truly go there, etc...

Do not understand that it was a decision that was already made (and not exactly a punishment) before the foundations of this world, or the beginning of this universe, or the ones before it, etc...

The ones that go there, were just never meant for, nor were ever made for heaven, etc, but there only purpose, and the only place they have any kind of purpose, is only in just more of this, or these kinds of realities here, etc...

And if you want to know anything more, then just ask, etc...

God Bless!

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Since when is God influenced or limited by mankind's fickle feelings and sensibilities?

Is it since He began accepting your doctrines?

The opinions expressed here ignore the fact that God destroyed millions of mankind in a flood; men, women, old, young, children, infants by water.

Correct, and regretted it, promised He'd not do it again.

God destroyed thousands of mankind; men, women, old, young, children, infants by fire.
God told Israel to enter Canaan and destroy 1000s men, women, old, young, children, infants by the sword.

Correct, but now we have the revelation of Christ to show us that God is our Father, and He takes aim at sin. So He can cleanse the sinner by destroying the sin and thereby convert him from enemy to friend. The Canaanites and Babylonian babies are types, symbols, metaphors for sin.

The sword of Jesus' mouth, the Gospel, is what destroys lies and allows for the restoration of the good, the contrite heart.

 

[2BeholdHisGlory]

Paul died daily, crucified with Christ.

Lest a grain of wheat fall to the ground and die, how can it grow and bring forth fruit?

And I heard a voice from heaven, saying, “Write: ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on!’” “Yes,” says the Spirit, “so that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow with them. (Rev 14:13)

Death is the sine qua non of life in Christ. Hence 'the death of death in the death of Christ' as John Owen wrote. And when death is defeated, what remains? It's life, and to the full. So the good news of the eschaton is that life triumphs, and God will be all in all.

Are you explaining or reproving the verse I cannot tell.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Are you explaining or reproving the verse I cannot tell.

Just showing a bit more as to the treatment of death in scripture. Die to self, live to Christ. And that's the second death in Rev 21. We know this because the nations, presumably thrown into the fire at the GWT judgment as unbelievers, later emerge repentant in Rev 21:24 and for healing in Rev 22:2.

 

[2BeholdHisGlory]

Just showing a bit more as to the treatment of death in scripture. Die to self, live to Christ. And that's the second death in Rev 21. We know this because the nations, presumably thrown into the fire at the GWT judgment as unbelievers, later emerge repentant in Rev 21:24 and for healing in Rev 22:2.

You completely lost me

 

[Shrewd Manager]

You completely lost me

Ultimately, everyone gets saved through Christ, just as God has promised throughout scripture, and sealed in holy blood at Calvary. Good news, glad tidings of great joy for all mankind!

 

[2BeholdHisGlory]

Ultimately, everyone gets saved through Christ, just as God has promised throughout scripture, and sealed in holy blood at Calvary. Good news, glad tidings of great joy for all mankind!

Ok I understand a little better, you are a universalist.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Ok I understand a little better, you are a universalist.

Is there any sense otherwise?

 

[2BeholdHisGlory]

Is there any sense otherwise?

I was there before long ago, all my freinds were, they meant well, but after some years of examining it I never came to the same conclusion and some of them have changed their minds back.

So I do understand

 

[Shrewd Manager]

I was there before long ago, all my freinds were, they meant well, but after some years of examining it I never came to the same conclusion and some of them have changed their minds back.

So I do understand

Back to what? A denial of the total victory of Christ? Bit of a shame. So Adam is greater than Christ after all is he?

 

[Neogaia777]

Jesus had a hope that all would be saved, but also realistically knew that they all probably wouldn't, etc...

It's practically beyond impossible that all will repent, etc, and that's what it would take for all to saved, etc...

Sure all things are possible and nothing is impossible with God, etc, but all I see right now is just a bunch of people being wicked and not being repentant at all, and not even realizing or recognizing their need for repentance, and not recognizing nor acknowledging God or Jesus Christ, and living only solely for the things of only this world and this life only, etc, which are very wicked things and sinful evil things, and things that perish, etc...

You really think there is hope for them, etc...?

If we/me/you don't truly change our true hearts desire by the end of this life, then there will be nothing at all left for you after this life, except only more of this life, forever after this life, etc...

Also, the idea that after people go to the lake of fire, they somehow come back out of it, and then even come back out of it repentant, etc, is a total heresy, etc, and not at all Biblical, etc, after the lake of fire there is not coming back, etc, for that is the final judgement, and that judgement is final, etc...

Or else just show one single place in scripture where it ever says or even implies that, etc, cause you not going to find any/one, etc, and in fact, scripture says the "exact opposite", etc, about the lake of fire, etc, for it says that it is "forever", and "final", and "eternal", etc...

Or why did Jesus, and why did the Bible give us so many warnings about hell or the lake of fire, if we were all going to saved out of it/them in the end anyway, etc...?

It is precisely because there comes a point when we won't, or won't be able to anymore, that it specifically gives us warnings about that and/or says that, etc...

God Bless!