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"According to God's Word..." Do you say that to end the discussion?
Matthew 5:43-48
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
"Danger, Will Robinson!"There is a difference between forgiving someone for not knowing what they are doing, and forgiving someone who knowingly sins against you.
If a person did not know what they were doing was wrong, then it cannot be held against them as sin, for sin is dead without knowledge of what they were doing was against God's law.
Romans 7:8-9
For apart from the law, sin was dead. 9 Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died.
"Danger, Will Robinson!"
Matthew 6:15 NIV
But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.
Your suggestion of withholding forgiveness is very dangerous.That is a true statement, and we forgive someone their sins after they repent, just as God forgives our sins after we repent. You have to be view your prooftexts in the context of all Scripture teaching on a term in order to determine if your prooftext is valid.
Your suggestion of withholding forgiveness is very dangerous.
Saint Steven said: ↑
"Danger, Will Robinson!"
Matthew 6:15 NIV
But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.
He already has.Do you think God will forgive your sins if you continue in your sins without repentance?
Mat 7:13-14
13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 how strait is the gate, and compressed the way that is leading to the life, and few are those finding it!
Lord Jesus is teaching a truth about the gate to destruction and the gate to life that was not only true for that time but for an indefinite period not mentioned. If that were not true, He would have stated a limit to the teaching.
Lord Jesus warns them to enter through the narrow gate.
Lord Jesus teaches that, not just them he is talking to. For instance:
"broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many enter through it."
This statement has no limit attached to it; rather, it is a teaching of the reality of what is happening continuously.
Likewise, when Lord Jesus discusses the narrow gate, he no longer uses the word "enter," but rather, the gate is so narrow that few are those "finding" it.
"few are those finding it"
Notice, there is no limit to the time this teaching ends, rather, it is a present tense that is continuous in that it shows no limit in time. In Greek, most present tense clauses are also continuous.
Another common example of a present tense that is continuous is all those clauses with the word "believe" in them. In the New Testament, most times "believe" is present and continuous. That is why literal Greek translations state "believe" as "believing" or "believes" in most cases.
In a clause, this would mean that to believe in Jesus is not a one time action to be saved, but must continue throughout your life. That is why so many Scriptures warn the believers to remain faithful to the end to be saved.
He already has.
Colossians 2:13-14 NIV
When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross.
I notice in Matthew 7:13 an interesting feature - both gates lead to entry, and there is nothing said about what is entered. The verse does NOT say that the two gates lead to different places. or that they lead to the same place.
Jesus did not specify, so by grammar alone, I'm assuming it's the same place. I checked an interlinear version, and the Greek did not help. Does the narrow gate lead to an easy entry, while the wide gate involves destruction before entry? It's deep.
Destruction does not mean those on this pathway cease to exist. They don’t. All will live eternally either in damnation or blessing. Destruction refers to eternal ruin (cf. Matt 8:12, Rev 14:11, 20:10).
I looked at the verse in biblehub.com, and noticed a translation outlier from the New Living Translation: “You can enter God’s Kingdom only through the narrow gate. The highway to hell is broad, and its gate is wide for the many who choose that way." I suppose most Christians read it that way.
However, compare “Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it." -NASB
"If anyone’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet only so as through fire." -NASB
The works of some get destruction, but they are saved "as through fire." "Through" implies passing through, which implies entry further on. Is it just this simple, destruction of works, and then entry into the same place as those finding the narrow gate?
Couldn't I say the same to you? (but won't because I know better)Will you ever learn not to pervert God's Will by quoting God's Holy Word as prooftexts to back up your opinions?
Couldn't I say the same to you? (but won't because I know better)
I guess I will have to wait for you to repent so I can forgive you. - lolYou could say it about me, but it would not be true. I showed your errors in all your posts with your continued misquoting of God's Word. You have not shown evidence from me that I do the same. Therefore, again, your refuted opinions have no context in truth.
I found this post of mine on another forum:
IF Hell were real...
It might be mentioned in the creation account. It isn't.
God might have warned Adam, Eve, Cain, and a lot of other people about their risk of ending up there. He didn't.
The Law that God gave to Moses might contain warnings about living in such a way that you would risk going there. It doesn't.
The Bible's many accounts of the deaths of many, many people might have specified whether they went to Hell. They don't.
The word "hell" might stand on its own, instead of being footnoted in the margin as "sheol," "hades," "gehenna" or "tartarus." But it is.
We might expect to find Satan/Lucifer declared as the Ruler of Hell. But he isn't.
We might expect Jesus to speak more of Hell than of anything else, but no, He didn't. I checked - He spoke of the Kingdom of Heaven far more, almost ten times more.
We might expect Paul the Apostle to have mentioned Hell, but he didn't.
We might have expected Hell to have a better foundation than dubious translation and the fictions of Dante, Milton and Baxter, but it doesn't.
God kept many things a mystery in the Old Testament period, but fully revealed them in the New Testament as regards the entire Gospel Word.
1 Peter 1:10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, 11 trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of the Messiah and the glories that would follow. 12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things.
Romans 16:25 (NIV) Now to him who is able to establish you in accordance with my gospel, the message I proclaim about Jesus Christ, in keeping with the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, 26 but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all the Gentiles might come to the obedience that comes from faith — 27 to the only wise God be glory forever through Jesus Christ! Amen.
Matthew 10:27 (WEB)
27 What I tell you in the darkness, speak in the light; and what you hear whispered in the ear, proclaim on the housetops.
Loving your enemies does not mean forgiving them. Loving your enemies enough to help them and pray that God will lead them to repentance is what is it means to love your enemy. Once they repent, you forgive them.
"It doesn't reach, Herbert!"
You quote three verses, none of which address any of my points. I found them to be true after much reading and study. If you mean to imply that God kept Hell a secret for most of human history, then you should explain why He should be so evil as to send people to a bad place He had not warned them of.
It is all too easy to wave around a few verses of generalized comment. What you need to do is to find specific verses which contradict my specific points, but I'm thinking you can't.
You could say it about me, but it would not be true. I showed your errors in all your posts with your continued misquoting of God's Word. You have not shown evidence from me that I do the same. Therefore, again, your refuted opinions have no context in truth.
The three verses, and I could quote many more, show that God left many things a mystery in the Old Testament, but God, all through the Old Testament, promised to repay with punishment those who do evil in this life, especially evil against the helpless.
God is not evil for sending them to a bad place. God is righteous in all His judgments, and will deal with each person according to the knowledge they had, and by their conscience.
Romans 2:14-16 (WEB)
14 (for when Gentiles who don’t have the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying with them, and their thoughts among themselves accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men, according to my Good News, by Jesus Christ.
God will repay those who did evil while on earth, just as He warned in the Old Testament.
Romans 2:3-9 (WEB)
3 Do you think this, O man who judges those who practice such things, and do the same, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you despise the riches of his goodness, forbearance, and patience, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But according to your hardness and unrepentant heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath, revelation, and of the righteous judgment of God; 6 who “will pay back to everyone according to their works:” [Psalm 62:12; Proverbs 24:12] 7 to those who by perseverance in well-doing seek for glory, honor, and incorruptibility, eternal life; 8 but to those who are self-seeking, and don’t obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, will be wrath, indignation, 9 oppression, and anguish on every soul of man who does evil, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Hebrews 10:19-31 (WEB)
...19 Having therefore, brothers, boldness to enter into the holy place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by the way which he dedicated for us, a new and living way, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh, 21 and having a great priest over God’s house, 22 let’s draw near with a true heart in fullness of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and having our body washed with pure water, 23 let’s hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering; for he who promised is faithful.
...24 Let’s consider how to provoke one another to love and good works, 25 not forsaking our own assembling together, as the custom of some is, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.
...26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which will devour the adversaries. 28 A man who disregards Moses’ law dies without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment do you think he will be judged worthy of who has trodden under-foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant with which he was sanctified an unholy thing, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance belongs to me. I will repay,” says the Lord. [Deuteronomy 32:35] Again, “The Lord will judge his people.” [Deuteronomy 32:36; Psalm 135:14] 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
The place of wrath is eternal torment.
Revelation 14:9-11 (WEB)
9 Another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a great voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead, or on his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is prepared unmixed in the cup of his anger. He will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 The smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. They have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.
Matthew 8:11-12 (WEB)
11 I tell you that many will come from the east and the west, and will sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the Kingdom of Heaven, 12 but the children of the Kingdom will be thrown out into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
This will all take place after the judgement.
Matthew 12:31-46 (WEB)
. . . 44 “Then they will also answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and didn’t help you?’ 45 “Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Most certainly I tell you, because you didn’t do it to one of the least of these, you didn’t do it to me.’ 46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Those in the Days of Noah were also preached to by Noah for years, but they refused to repent.
2 Peter 2:5
5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly
You alluded to a verse, 1 Cor 3:14, which the "hell no!" crowd, quotes, out-of-context, trying to support universal reconciliation [UR]* * * However, compare “Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it." -NASB
with
"If anyone’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet only so as through fire." -NASB
The works of some get destruction, but they are saved "as through fire." "Through" implies passing through, which implies entry further on. Is it just this simple, destruction of works, and then entry into the same place as those finding the narrow gate?
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