A Discussion of Same-Sex Marriage and Gay Rights

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ken777

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'Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.” Ezekiel 16:49-50

Detestable things - shiqquts; sheqets; shiqqutsim - idol-worship or objects connected with idolatry

The word translated "abomination" or "detestable things" in Ezekiel 16:50 is tow`ebah not shiqquts.

The same word (tow'ebah) is used in Leviticus 18:22 & Leviticus 20:13.

God did not rain fire from heaven and destroy heathen people for idolatry (Acts 17:29-30).

Luke 17:29, 2 Peter 2:7, & Jude 1:7 make it clear Sodom was destroyed for sexual immorality & perversion.
 
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SilverBear

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The word translated "abomination" or "detestable things" in Ezekiel 16:50 is tow`ebah not shiqquts.

The same word (tow'ebah) is used in Leviticus 18:22 & Leviticus 20:13.

God did not rain fire from heaven and destroy heathen people for idolatry (Acts 17:29-30).

Luke 17:29, 2 Peter 2:7, & Jude 1:7 make it clear Sodom was destroyed for sexual immorality & perversion.
Was the decision to destroy Sodom made before or after the Angels paid a visit oto Lot?
 
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Smidlee

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The word translated "abomination" or "detestable things" in Ezekiel 16:50 is tow`ebah not shiqquts.

The same word (tow'ebah) is used in Leviticus 18:22 & Leviticus 20:13.

God did not rain fire from heaven and destroy heathen people for idolatry (Acts 17:29-30).

Luke 17:29, 2 Peter 2:7, & Jude 1:7 make it clear Sodom was destroyed for sexual immorality & perversion.
Yes, study the whole word of God to get the full picture.
 
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Smidlee

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Was the decision to destroy Sodom made before or after the Angels paid a visit oto Lot?
They wasn't judge by the Mosaic law so how did God judge them? By their own judgement. God judged them for the light that they received. That light was Lot as if it wasn't for Lot they would still be in captivity as Abraham rescued them. As soon as they decided to lay their hands on Lot their judgment was settled.
 
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Paul Yohannan

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Sojourner, in a note for these fora, asked these questions about same-sex marriages:

Is it a civil right?
Yes, it is. If it is legal for two people to marry for all of the other reasons, I cannot see why it should be illegal--or in any other way less than legal. I will make the assumption that both are of age, that one or the other is not being coerced, etc.​

Is it legal to discriminate against homosexuals or same-sex marriages?
No! Note I am saying LEGAL. It has been illegal for a long time to disciminate against blacks, Amerindians, Oriental, or any other race.

However, If (Note, I said IF) I was a gay man trying to get a cake or flowers for my wedding, if someone said NO, I would say, "well the baker down the street will make a cake for me. If you don't want my business, he does!"​

How does this affect the rights of religious organizations in regards to performing same-sex marriages?
Not all all. For instance, the Catholic Church will not perform same-sex marriage. That is their right. Neither I nor the government can (or should be able to) force my will on the Church.
The political and civil history of government involvement in marriage and how that pertains to the current debate.
I have heard people on the anti side say that same-sex marriage re-defines Marriage. Marriage has been re-defined so many times it makes my head spin. Just in my country alone (USA), marriage was re-defined by the Supreme Court by Loving vs. Virginia. It was re-defined by no-fault divorce. For that matter, the first time a Christian presbyter or bishop married a couple, marriage was re-defined.
If a same-sex couple should want to be civilly married, as long as they are of the same breed (human) and both are of age and neither is being coerced, fine.​

Note, I am saying that when it comes to civil marriage, there should be no difference.

Is this view really in accord with the stated position of the Catholic Church on this issue? Rome has consistently taken a stance in opposition to homosexuality and homosexual marriage, and one would expect this view to be particularly prevalent in one of the two predominantly ethnically Syrian sui juris churches; as a rule the eastern Catholic patriarchates tend to be even more conservative than the Latin Rite.

Certainly as an Orthodox Christian I cannot but oppose homosexual marriage even as civil marriage as an affront to the sacramental union between one man and one woman that is defined as a sacred mystery.
 
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SilverBear

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They wasn't judge by the Mosaic law so how did God judge them? By their own judgement. God judged them for the light that they received. That light was Lot as if it wasn't for Lot they would still be in captivity as Abraham rescued them. As soon as they decided to lay their hands on Lot their judgment was settled.
that's...nice.
Again did God decide to destroy Sodom before or after the Angels paid a visit to Lot?
 
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Smidlee

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that's...nice.
Again did God decide to destroy Sodom before or after the Angels paid a visit to Lot?
What's the point of your question or you don't really know. I wrote exactly when judgement was decided .. the moment they decided to lay their hands on Lot.
 
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Monk Brendan

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Guess what so is homosexuality a sin.

I am not concerned with that! ALL I am talking about is CIVIL RIGHTS. If a murderer is taken to trial, then they try to respect his civil rights. ALL I am asking is to give them the same civil rights that the CIVIL authorities give to a murderer or rapist.

Yes, homosexuality is a sin. There, are we happy? I am a monk living in a hermitage. I don't get to see many women OR men, and as I am living a celibate life, neither of them appeal to me.

ALL I have been pointing out is that, as citizens of the USA, homosexuals have the same CIVIL rights as anyone else.
 
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Monk Brendan

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The word translated "abomination" or "detestable things" in Ezekiel 16:50 is tow`ebah not shiqquts.

The same word (tow'ebah) is used in Leviticus 18:22 & Leviticus 20:13.

God did not rain fire from heaven and destroy heathen people for idolatry (Acts 17:29-30).

Luke 17:29, 2 Peter 2:7, & Jude 1:7 make it clear Sodom was destroyed for sexual immorality & perversion.

Consider please, the same word being used by God in THESE passages:

Lev 11:10 KJV And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you:

Deuteronomy 17:1 Thou shalt not sacrifice unto the LORD thy God any bullock, or sheep, wherein is blemish, or any evilfavouredness: for that is an abomination unto the LORD thy God.

(Sacrificing an animal that has a blemish is the same thing as a man laying down with a man?)

Deuteronomy 22:5 “The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God.”

(Have you seen what fashion has done to the clothes that a woman wears being worn by a man? For that matter, how about a kilt? That is a very masculine garment, especially if worn properly.)

Those are some tow'ebah that have nothing to do with homosexuality, yet God judges them just as harshly.

BTW,
תּוֹעֵבַה tôwʻêbah, to-ay-baw'; or תֹּעֵבַה tôʻêbah; feminine active participle of H8581; properly, something disgusting (morally), i.e. (as noun) an abhorrence; especially idolatry or (concretely) an idol:—abominable (custom, thing), abomination.

And another BTW, the sin of Sodom was not homosexuality. EZ 16:48-50 says:
48 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, Sodom thy sister hath not done, she nor her daughters, as thou hast done, thou and thy daughters.

49 Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.

50 And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good.
 
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ken777

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Consider please, the same word being used by God in THESE passages:

Lev 11:10 KJV And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you:

Deuteronomy 17:1 Thou shalt not sacrifice unto the LORD thy God any bullock, or sheep, wherein is blemish, or any evilfavouredness: for that is an abomination unto the LORD thy God.

(Sacrificing an animal that has a blemish is the same thing as a man laying down with a man?)

Deuteronomy 22:5 “The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God.”

(Have you seen what fashion has done to the clothes that a woman wears being worn by a man? For that matter, how about a kilt? That is a very masculine garment, especially if worn properly.)

Those are some tow'ebah that have nothing to do with homosexuality, yet God judges them just as harshly.

BTW,
תּוֹעֵבַה tôwʻêbah, to-ay-baw'; or תֹּעֵבַה tôʻêbah; feminine active participle of H8581; properly, something disgusting (morally), i.e. (as noun) an abhorrence; especially idolatry or (concretely) an idol:—abominable (custom, thing), abomination.

And another BTW, the sin of Sodom was not homosexuality. EZ 16:48-50 says:
48 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, Sodom thy sister hath not done, she nor her daughters, as thou hast done, thou and thy daughters.

49 Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.

50 And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good.
Other activities were an "abomination" under the Law, but that does not change the fact that homosexuality was an abomination, or indicate that it should be regarded as not offensive to God.

The natural understanding of Ezekiel 16:49-50 is that Sodom was characterized by a list of decadent and self-indulgent sins that eventually led it to commit abomination before God, causing him to destroy it. This understanding is reflected in what Paul wrote (Romans 1:21-22, Romans 1:23-24).

Even before the Law was given, the sin of Sodom was regarded as very grievous by God (Genesis 13:13, Genesis 18:20). In the NT, Jesus' followers were very clear about the sin for which Sodom was destroyed (2 Peter 2:7, Jude 1:7)
 
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Arcangl86

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Other activities were an "abomination" under the Law, but that does not change the fact that homosexuality was an abomination, or indicate that it should be regarded as not offensive to God.

Jesus' followers were very clear about the sin for which Sodom was destroyed (2 Peter 2:7, Jude 1:7)
Yet oddly that is the only "abomination" that people want to outlaw. Also I think it says something that when people hear the story of Sodom and Gamora, they jump to homosexuality being the issue, and not the fact that it was rape.
 
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ken777

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Yet oddly that is the only "abomination" that people want to outlaw. Also I think it says something that when people hear the story of Sodom and Gamora, they jump to homosexuality being the issue, and not the fact that it was rape.
The reason homosexuality, and other types of immorality, are regarded as sinful for the Christian believer is that they are repeated even more explicitly in the NT.

Before the angels visited Sodom, God said, "the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous" (Genesis 18:20).

It is not only homosexual behavior that is condemned in the accounts of Sodom's destruction, but the approval of the people of these activities (Genesis 19:4, Romans 1:32)
 
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ken777

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Can somebody show me where in Scripture Christians are commanded to force other people to live by our moral code?

Only the law of the land can force anyone to do anything.

We can - and should - pray that legislators are influenced to put in place laws that reflect the morality of Scripture (1 Timothy 2:1-2)
 
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Arcangl86

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Only the law of the land can force anyone to do anything.

We can - and should - pray that legislators are influenced to put in place laws that reflect the morality of Scripture (1 Timothy 2:1-2)
That Scripture says we should pray for leaders, not that we should pray for them to impose Christian morality on everybody.
 
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ken777

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That Scripture says we should pray for leaders, not that we should pray for them to impose Christian morality on everybody.
1 Timothy 2:1-2 gives a very good indication how we should pray for those in authority : "that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness." (NIV)
 
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1 Timothy 2:1-2 gives a very good indication how we should pray for those in authority : "that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness." (NIV)
Is it impossible to live a "peaceful and quiet" life in "godliness and holiness" simply because your neighbor is married to her same-sex partner?
 
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ken777

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Is it impossible to live a "peaceful and quiet" life in "godliness and holiness" simply because your neighbor is married to her same-sex partner?
It is a much broader issue than that. It includes what our children are taught at school, what businesses are required to do, and how God blesses our society ... Sodom didn't fare so well (Luke 17:29, 2 Peter 2:6, Jude 1:7)
 
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