A Discussion of Same-Sex Marriage and Gay Rights

[ken777]

This is plainly untrue. The maelstrom that has whirled around same sex marriage is mostly fueled by Christians judging the PEOPLE! Otherwise, there would not be this furor that has gone on to 100 posts. STOP thinking about SIN! Think, instead about CIVIL RIGHTS!

I am surprised you do not better understand the spiritual meaning of marriage as taught in the Bible. The symbolism of male-female marriage is very significant for the Biblical Christian and to participate in a same sex marriage would be a violation of their faith.

It is the activity - the wedding ceremony - that is the reason some Christians have refused to participate in ssm. Even if it were a heterosexual same sex couple who were getting married (eg to establish nok rights) these Christians would still refuse to participate.

I am disappointed you support the persecution of these Christians.

 

[ken777]

Oh? I disagree. Lot was not the highly moral person you are making him out to be. Remember, when the PEOPLE were banging on the door, Lot asked if he could trade his daughters in the gang-bang the people wanted for the visitors that had come to the city gate.

And we see what happened AFTER Lot and his family escaped from Sodom. His daughters got him drunk, and had sex with him (btw, why is incest not condemned just as strongly, and why weren't they destroyed just as Sodom?)

Peter calls Lot "righteous" (2 Peter 2:7-8). You need to reconcile this with Lot's errors of judgment.

 

[Smidlee]

Oh? I disagree. Lot was not the highly moral person you are making him out to be. Remember, when the PEOPLE were banging on the door, Lot asked if he could trade his daughters in the gang-bang the people wanted for the visitors that had come to the city gate.

And we see what happened AFTER Lot and his family escaped from Sodom. His daughters got him drunk, and had sex with him (btw, why is incest not condemned just as strongly, and why weren't they destroyed just as Sodom?)

I never made him out to be as spiritual as Abraham. BUT the people of Sodom knew that Abraham recused them because of Lot so they were judged by their own judgment. Notice judgment was decided the moment the mob tried to lay their hands on Lot. God judges people by the light they receive.

 

[Smidlee]

Then why is divorce not only legal, but almost encouraged? Why is ABORTION (you know what that is--killing babies) legal?

The shedding of innocent blood in one of the seven things God hates. Just because man approves shedding innocent blood doesn't mean God does.

 

[ken777]

Said by the person who tried to compare teaching children that interracial marriage was wrong with teaching left-handed children to write with their right hands.

You missed the point that both are irrelevant to the topic in hand.

If you have a public business you cannot discriminate against protected classes. Discrimination against activities is discrimination against people.

And yet a T shirt printer was found not guilty of discrimination for refusing to print T shirts for a gay pride parade.

The words of Ezekiel are very clear. Only those who refuse to accept their plain meaning need to go beyond them.

I suggest you become familiar with some of the principles of exegesis.

 

[SilverBear]

And don't forget that children were once taught writing with the left hand was wrong ... so of course that is also a good argument for teaching them sin is now acceptable.

how about actually answering Archivist's question: At one time children were taught that interracial marriage violated Scripture. Was that correct?

 

[SilverBear]

Genesis 19:5 says the men of Sodom wanted to have sex with the men in Lot's house.

Which had nothing to do with the original decision to destroy Sodom.

And which has nothing to do with Jude's use of the phrase 'strange flesh'.

 

[SilverBear]

The men of Sodom wanted to have sex with the angels because they thought they were men (Genesis 19:5).

The word "know" in this context refers to sexual relations (see Genesis 19:8, Jude 1:7).

The sin of Sodom was practised before the visit of the angels ( Genesis 13:13).

'Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy.” Ezekiel 16:49

 

[SilverBear]

We have two people in my church who have given up their gay sexual lifestyle for Christ and they seem happier now than they were when they were committing that sexual act. In fact one just got married to someone of the opposite sex and they seem to be doing well.

is this "gay sexual lifestyle" anything like the black sexual lifestyle or the Jewish sexual lifestyle?

 

[SilverBear]

I am surprised you do not better understand the spiritual meaning of marriage as taught in the Bible. The symbolism of male-female marriage is very significant for the Biblical Christian and to participate in a same sex marriage would be a violation of their faith.

It is the activity - the wedding ceremony - that is the reason some Christians have refused to participate in ssm. Even if it were a heterosexual same sex couple who were getting married (eg to establish nok rights) these Christians would still refuse to participate.

I am disappointed you support the persecution of these Christians.

In 28 states it is perfectly legal to be fired from your job just because your boss found out you were homosexual.
Homosexuals can be denied housing in 30 states
Businesses can refuse to serve homosexuals in 34 states.
In Michigan you can be denied medical treatment even emergency medical treatment if you are homosexual.
Homosexuals can be denied car insurance in 34 states.
Gays and Lesbians are twice as likely to be the target of hate crimes than African Americans. The FBI estimates that a staggering 90% of all anti-gay hate crimes go unreported.


So please tell us about how Christians are being persecuted

 

[Sheep4Christ]

is this "gay sexual lifestyle" anything like the black sexual lifestyle or the Jewish sexual lifestyle?

Hi. What I meant was these two people stopped sleeping with their same gender.

 

[SnowyMacie]

Sojourner, in a note for these fora, asked these questions about same-sex marriages:

Is it a civil right?

Yes, it is. If it is legal for two people to marry for all of the other reasons, I cannot see why it should be illegal--or in any other way less than legal. I will make the assumption that both are of age, that one or the other is not being coerced, etc.​

Is it legal to discriminate against homosexuals or same-sex marriages?

No! Note I am saying LEGAL. It has been illegal for a long time to disciminate against blacks, Amerindians, Oriental, or any other race.

However, If (Note, I said IF) I was a gay man trying to get a cake or flowers for my wedding, if someone said NO, I would say, "well the baker down the street will make a cake for me. If you don't want my business, he does!"​

How does this affect the rights of religious organizations in regards to performing same-sex marriages?

Not all all. For instance, the Catholic Church will not perform same-sex marriage. That is their right. Neither I nor the government can (or should be able to) force my will on the Church.
​

The political and civil history of government involvement in marriage and how that pertains to the current debate.

I have heard people on the anti side say that same-sex marriage re-defines Marriage. Marriage has been re-defined so many times it makes my head spin. Just in my country alone (USA), marriage was re-defined by the Supreme Court by Loving vs. Virginia. It was re-defined by no-fault divorce. For that matter, the first time a Christian presbyter or bishop married a couple, marriage was re-defined.
If a same-sex couple should want to be civilly married, as long as they are of the same breed (human) and both are of age and neither is being coerced, fine.​

Note, I am saying that when it comes to civil marriage, there should be no difference.

Well said, there is a difference between civil marriage and, for lack of a better term, Christian marriage. I think you can make an argument that it is a sin for Christians to engage in a same-sex marriage, but so is premarital sex and adultery, and nobody goes around saying these marriages (or ones that came from them) should be outlawed. There is no good argument that same-sex civil marriage should be outlawed, the United States is not a theocracy, it's laws are based on the English Common Law system.

 

[SnowyMacie]

I am surprised you do not better understand the spiritual meaning of marriage as taught in the Bible. The symbolism of male-female marriage is very significant for the Biblical Christian and to participate in a same sex marriage would be a violation of their faith.

It is the activity - the wedding ceremony - that is the reason some Christians have refused to participate in ssm. Even if it were a heterosexual same sex couple who were getting married (eg to establish nok rights) these Christians would still refuse to participate.

I am disappointed you support the persecution of these Christians.

Then don't have a same-sex marriage and don't attend one, it's simple. That's not persecution.

 

[Monk Brendan]

I suggest meditating on the post that brought upon the response that elicited that one. Know also that the disease is spreading on an unprecedented scale, and know that it cannot ever culminate in anything other than mass murder, and know that it will come upon us with unimaginable rapidity.

And do you see a communist hiding under your bed? NO? That's how well they hide themselves.

Your entire post is predicated on the idea that we are already in the seven years of the Tribulation, and that the coming of Jesus is only a few days away. The Third Temple in Jerusalem has yet to be built! Meditate on that!

To be honest, I see--more clearly than you--that we are coming up to a great anti-Christian time, and that we have to stand firm. But we don't have to be paranoid. When Henry VIII suppressed the Roman Catholic Church in England, who were the first people that he ordered killed or thrown out of the country? MONKS! I have to worry more than you.

 

[Monk Brendan]

I am surprised you do not better understand the spiritual meaning of marriage as taught in the Bible. The symbolism of male-female marriage is very significant for the Biblical Christian and to participate in a same sex marriage would be a violation of their faith.

It is the activity - the wedding ceremony - that is the reason some Christians have refused to participate in ssm. Even if it were a heterosexual same sex couple who were getting married (eg to establish nok rights) these Christians would still refuse to participate.

I am disappointed you support the persecution of these Christians.

First, I do NOT support the persecution of Christians! I have said earlier that if a baker doesn't want to bake a cake, he doesn't have to, but he is the one that will lose. His ex-customers will find themselves a new baker, and noise it around the "gay" community that XYZ Bakers are homophobes. Then all of his gay customers will go elsewhere.

Soon, the baker's barber will hear about it, and refuse to do the baker's hair, because the baker is a homophobe. Do you see how far this can go? There will be gay flags flying all over the place, and signs in most of the windows: "We Welcome Our Gay Clients!" Is this what you want?

I understand the Biblical meaning of Marriage better than you do. However, I'll bet you don't know that according to Scripture, a man can rape a virgin, and if she complains to her father, can hush it up with a bribe. Is THIS the type of marriage that you want? Deut 22:28-29

 

[Monk Brendan]

The shedding of innocent blood in one of the seven things God hates. Just because man approves shedding innocent blood doesn't mean God does.

Again, I am talking LAW and you are talking SIN.

 

[truefiction1]

And do you see a communist hiding under your bed? NO? That's how well they hide themselves.

Your entire post is predicated on the idea that we are already in the seven years of the Tribulation, and that the coming of Jesus is only a few days away. The Third Temple in Jerusalem has yet to be built! Meditate on that!

To be honest, I see--more clearly than you--that we are coming up to a great anti-Christian time, and that we have to stand firm. But we don't have to be paranoid. When Henry VIII suppressed the Roman Catholic Church in England, who were the first people that he ordered killed or thrown out of the country? MONKS! I have to worry more than you.

They tortured and killed much of the clergy too, or otherwise persecuted them in order to silence, or control them. The temple in Jerusalem is the Church, and She's been getting built for 2000+ years. She's almost finished

 

[Armoured]

They tortured and killed much of the clergy too, or otherwise persecuted them in order to silence, or control them. The temple in Jerusalem is the Church, and She's been getting built for 2000+ years. She's almost finished

It's been "almost finished " for a while now.

 

[Monk Brendan]

They tortured and killed much of the clergy too, or otherwise persecuted them in order to silence, or control them. The temple in Jerusalem is the Church, and She's been getting built for 2000+ years. She's almost finished

You are reaching, a bit. Many clergy and laity met their martyrdom bravely. Yes, that is true. But the grandmothers and grandfathers kept the faith, locked it up tight, sometimes, and taught their children and grandchildren--and even great-grandchildren the Gospel. The Russian Orthodox Church withstood the spread of communism and prevailed.

The temple in Jerusalem is not the Church, it is the ruins of the old LAW, and as such means nothing.

 

[truefiction1]

You are reaching, a bit. Many clergy and laity met their martyrdom bravely. Yes, that is true. But the grandmothers and grandfathers kept the faith, locked it up tight, sometimes, and taught their children and grandchildren--and even great-grandchildren the Gospel. The Russian Orthodox Church withstood the spread of communism and prevailed.

The temple in Jerusalem is not the Church, it is the ruins of the old LAW, and as such means nothing.

Reaching? The clergy were put down by the evil one and his children. This is absolutely true. That is why I said, "Soon, there aren't going to be many pastors to talk to." But in the final days, the evil one and his children will put faith down, not so much by means of open persecution (though to an extent they will) but by temptation through the abundance of material abundance, pleasure, and earthly distractions. True pastors have always been very rare. In our days they are nearly absent from the earth. And yes, I'm a little aware of the nature of Christianity under communist Russia, having two great aunts who were amongst the monastics put down by the evil one and his children.

On your last point: The only "temple" that means anything with regard to the end is the Temple of Christ's Body (which is the Church). The end can come anytime now, as always. It doesn't depend upon the construction by Jews of a third temple, if that is what you were implying.