A Discussion of Same-Sex Marriage and Gay Rights

[SilverBear]

Other activities were an "abomination" under the Law, but that does not change the fact that homosexuality was an abomination, or indicate that it should be regarded as not offensive to God.

Just like eating shrimp or wearing a poly cotton blend shirt.

The natural understanding of Ezekiel 16:49-50 is that Sodom was characterized by a list of decadent and self-indulgent sins that eventually led it to commit abomination before God, causing him to destroy it. This understanding is reflected in what Paul wrote (Romans 1:21-22, Romans 1:23-24).

Even before the Law was given, the sin of Sodom was regarded as very grievous by God (Genesis 13:13, Genesis 18:20). In the NT, Jesus' followers were very clear about the sin for which Sodom was destroyed (2 Peter 2:7, Jude 1:7)

Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. Jude 1:7

Strange flesh is clearly defined in Gen 6. Here we read of a time when the "sons of God" fornicated with the "daughters of humans", resulting in a strange progeny called the "nephilim”.

Who are the "sons of God"? look to Job 1:6. Here we see that Satan, a fallen angel, was before God as one of the "sons of God" So the sons of God are angels, fallen or otherwise.


Strange flesh refers to sexual activity between angels and humans which has nothing to do with homosexuality but of concourse between two distinct orders of creation.

 

[Zoii]

If we buy into the idea (falsehood) that there is a separation that can exist between Church and state, then this civil vs religious marriage argument might make sense. However, there is no such separation, and whatever one single person does, even in what might be felt to be total isolation, effects all of humankind spanning all of time and space. There is no separation: we are all part of each other -- one body. When people afflict themselves with death by turning from God and following their own selfish desires, the rot that they bring upon themselves tries to spread like gangrenous poison to the rest of the body in order to afflict it with the stench of its evil. We are not made to live unto ourselves. Such a state is not Life, but death. It is not Light, but darkness. It is not good, but evil. "Woe unto them who call evil good, and good evil" (Isaiah 5:20).

I dont want my government to be a religious institution - I want them to govern for everyone. If I want religious instruction I can talk to my pastor.

 

[Archivist]

It is a much broader issue than that. It includes what our children are taught at school,

At one time children were taught that interracial marriage violated Scripture. Was that correct?

what businesses are required to do,

If a business is holding itself out to the public it cannot discriminate.

and how God blesses our society ... Sodom didn't fare so well (Luke 17:29, 2 Peter 2:6, Jude 1:7)

And Ezekiel makes it clear that the sin of Sodom was not homosexuality.

 

[truefiction1]

I dont want my government to be a religious institution - I want them to govern for everyone. If I want religious instruction I can talk to my pastor.

Soon, there aren't going to be many pastors to talk to.

 

[JackRT]

Soon, there aren't going to be many pastors to talk to.

Why would you say that?

 

[truefiction1]

Why would you say that?

I suggest meditating on the post that brought upon the response that elicited that one. Know also that the disease is spreading on an unprecedented scale, and know that it cannot ever culminate in anything other than mass murder, and know that it will come upon us with unimaginable rapidity.

By the time you realize the accuracy of this, it will be too late to repent, and Isaiah 5:20 will be understood.

 

[Zoii]

Soon, there aren't going to be many pastors to talk to.

Why would you think such a thing. There's nothing I know of that says there's a pastor problem

 

[ken777]

At one time children were taught that interracial marriage violated Scripture. Was that correct?

And don't forget that children were once taught writing with the left hand was wrong ... so of course that is also a good argument for teaching them sin is now acceptable.

If a business is holding itself out to the public it cannot discriminate.

Discrimination against activities is Scriptural ... and still not illegal.

And Ezekiel makes it clear that the sin of Sodom was not homosexuality.

Ezekiel frequently references the Levitical holiness code, and his use of the singular tow'ebah for abomination reflects its use in Leviticus 18:22 & Leviticus 20:13 where it is only used for homosexuality.

Jesus' followers clarify the "abomination" in Ezekiel 16:50 for which Sodom was destroyed. (2 Peter 2:7. Jude 1:7).

In Romans 1, Paul uses the Ezekiel sequence to show how pride and rebellion against God leads to the sin of sexual immorality and perversion.

.

 

[ken777]

Strange flesh refers to sexual activity between angels and humans which has nothing to do with homosexuality but of concourse between two distinct orders of creation.

Genesis 19:5 says the men of Sodom wanted to have sex with the men in Lot's house.

 

[Arcangl86]

Genesis 19:5 says the men of Sodom wanted to have sex with the men in Lot's house.

Who were angels. And part of the reason that hospitality was such a big deal back then was because they believed that any strangers could be angels. And of course there is the fact that the whole thing was nonconsenual.

 

[ken777]

Who were angels. And part of the reason that hospitality was such a big deal back then was because they believed that any strangers could be angels. And of course there is the fact that the whole thing was nonconsenual.

The men of Sodom wanted to have sex with the angels because they thought they were men (Genesis 19:5).

The word "know" in this context refers to sexual relations (see Genesis 19:8, Jude 1:7).

The sin of Sodom was practised before the visit of the angels ( Genesis 13:13).

The act - whether consensual or not - is what the Bible consistently condemns, with not a single word condoning consensual same sex acts.

 

[Sheep4Christ]

We have two people in my church who have given up their gay sexual lifestyle for Christ and they seem happier now than they were when they were committing that sexual act. In fact one just got married to someone of the opposite sex and they seem to be doing well.

 

[Archivist]

And don't forget that children were once taught writing with the left hand was wrong ... so of course that is also a good argument for teaching them sin is now acceptable.

No one in schools is teaching children that sin is now acceptable. They are simply being taught that same-sex marriage is now legal.

Discrimination against activities is Scriptural ... and still not illegal.

Discrimination against protected classes is illegal if you are operating a business that is open to the public.

Ezekiel frequently references the Levitical holiness code, and his use of the singular tow'ebah for abomination reflects its use in Leviticus 18:22 & Leviticus 20:13 where it is only used for homosexuality.

Jesus' followers clarify the "abomination" in Ezekiel 16:50 for which Sodom was destroyed. (2 Peter 2:7. Jude 1:7).

In Romans 1, Paul uses the Ezekiel sequence to show how pride and rebellion against God leads to the sin of sexual immorality and perversion.

All if which ignores the plain meaning of Ezekiel.

 

[ken777]

We have two people in my church who have given up their gay sexual lifestyle for Christ and they seem happier now than they were when they were committing that sexual act. In fact one just got married to someone of the opposite sex and they seem to be doing well.

I am aware of similar stories ... and there are hundreds online. Some people are delivered from all same sex attraction, but for others it requires a lifetime commitment to maintain their Christian faith (Romans 6:19)

St Paul writes about a "thorn in the flesh" (2 Corinthians 12:7-8). Whatever it was, God did not take it away but gave him strength to live a godly life (2 Corinthians 12:9-10).

 

[ken777]

No one in schools is teaching children that sin is now acceptable. They are simply being taught that same-sex marriage is now legal.

same thing ... it is not taught in a morally neutral environment

Discrimination against protected classes is illegal if you are operating a business that is open to the public.

which has nothing to do with the fact that Christians only discriminate against activities.

All of which ignores the plain meaning of Ezekiel.

There is no "plain meaning" of Ezekiel 16:50 - it can only be understood by considering the context in Ezekiel, the context in the Levitical holiness code, and the context of the NT authors who were followers of Jesus. Ignore these elements and you can make up whatever interpretation you like ... they call it eisegesis.

 

[Archivist]

same thing ... it is not taught in a morally neutral environment

Said by the person who tried to compare teaching children that interracial marriage was wrong with teaching left-handed children to write with their right hands.

which has nothing to do with the fact that Christians only discriminate against activities.

If you have a public business you cannot discriminate against protected classes. Discrimination against activities is discrimination against people.

There is no "plain meaning" of Ezekiel 16:50 - it can only be understood by considering the context in Ezekiel, the context in the Levitical holiness code, and the context of the NT authors who were followers of Jesus. Ignore these elements and you can make up whatever interpretation you like ... they call it eisegesis.

The words of Ezekiel are very clear. Only those who refuse to accept their plain meaning need to go beyond them.

 

[Monk Brendan]

This thread started out with a question: Is same-sex marriage a CIVIL right? So far, everybody has talked about how nasty homosexuality is, and the sin of Sodom, etc.

In the original post, I did not talk about sin at all. I have always been speaking of JUSTICE, not sin. Sinful or not, drinking in bars is LEGAL. So is gambling (in Nevada, Atlantic City, and most Indian reservations). Smoking is still legal in the privacy of your home and outdoors, even though it is slow suicide--i.e. sinful.

I do not condone any of these activities! But these things are LEGAL. I had no desire to open up a thread about the sinfulness of any activity. I posted the question to see if anyone on this board had ANY sense of justice, and could make a fair and reasoned statement. What I have received is insults, questions about my sexuality, and countless sermons on sin.

OPEN YOUR MINDS! Think! If I had asked if it was a civil right if a white man married an African-American woman, almost everyone would have jumped up and down on my head for such bigotry! And yet a lot of you have made the same bigoted judgment about this issue.

PAY ATTENTION! I am asking about CIVIL RIGHTS, not whether something is sinful. Answer the question, and not what you think my motives are, or what sin is hidden in my heart.

 

[Monk Brendan]

God laws overrides man laws. God is Truth and the more man laws move away from God the more it will lead to corruption and chaos.

Then why is divorce not only legal, but almost encouraged? Why is ABORTION (you know what that is--killing babies) legal?

 

[Monk Brendan]

They wasn't judge by the Mosaic law so how did God judge them? By their own judgement. God judged them for the light that they received. That light was Lot as if it wasn't for Lot they would still be in captivity as Abraham rescued them. As soon as they decided to lay their hands on Lot their judgment was settled.

Oh? I disagree. Lot was not the highly moral person you are making him out to be. Remember, when the PEOPLE were banging on the door, Lot asked if he could trade his daughters in the gang-bang the people wanted for the visitors that had come to the city gate.

And we see what happened AFTER Lot and his family escaped from Sodom. His daughters got him drunk, and had sex with him (btw, why is incest not condemned just as strongly, and why weren't they destroyed just as Sodom?)

 

[Monk Brendan]

which has nothing to do with the fact that Christians only discriminate against activities.

This is plainly untrue. The maelstrom that has whirled around same sex marriage is mostly fueled by Christians judging the PEOPLE! Otherwise, there would not be this furor that has gone on to 100 posts. STOP thinking about SIN! Think, instead about CIVIL RIGHTS!