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Featured A cause, and effect world

Discussion in 'Christian Philosophy & Ethics' started by JohnB445, May 20, 2020.

  1. JohnB445

    JohnB445 Well-Known Member

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    Is the kind of world we live in, everything has an effect and a cause.

    Things can cause cancer for example, and the effect is not anything good, and there are many more examples.

    There are some preventative measures one can take to reduce the risk of cancer, just like there a preventative measures for other means.

    But can things be reversed after an effect has happened? And is it possible for other things as well?

    What we know one thing cannot be reversed is going to hell. Could this be a reflection in the world today that what happens has a consequence and it stays with you?
     
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  2. timewerx

    timewerx the village i--o--t--

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    Just about everything in Christianity is also governed by cause and effect. Ironically, one way to tell apart a false teaching is that it violates the cause and effect. One very good example of such false teaching that violates cause and effect is the false prosperity gospel. Money / material wealth always comes from someplace and governed by worldy rules (that is cruel and deceitful), it cannot manifest from thin air.
     
  3. QvQ

    QvQ Member

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    There would be changes so that each sequence would be unique and give a different end. Consider a sequence of billiard balls, hit one and it hits the next causing that to hit the next, chain sequence, cause and effect. Then hit the other end, it would not Undo the original motion. It would not place the balls precisely where and on which side they originally were. Each sequence would be unique due to initial conditions, small perturbations in the original motions and time.
    Some parts of the theory of relativity violate causality.
    Does quantum entanglement violate causality ? Based on the most common interpretation of QM, the answer is “Yes, but not in a directly observable way” (that is, the causality violation cannot be used to send messages backward in time in any reference frame.) However, I believe that action at a distance has been observed.
    So the answer is no, because time would need to reverse, theoretically possible, but it would require warp speed (exceed the speed of light) or so I gather from various sources.
    Christ manifested loaves/fishes and wine from thin air. The manna from heaven was from thin air.
     
  4. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    In the physical realm, for every action there can be an equal reaction.

    Here is an example, in the physical, of how also the consequence can be greater than the action which causes it.

    So, it varies.

    There are things that can, and things that can't. And in curing cancer, you don't reverse it, but you destroy the cancer. The cancer does not do a backwards playing of a movie thing.

    Each of us will reap what we have been sowing >

    "Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life." (Galatians 6:7-8)

    Physically, if you sow a few seeds, you can reap a harvest of food. You reap so much more than you sowed.

    Right now, people are already growing what they will be reaping, spiritually and emotionally. They are already getting according to what they have been sowing emotionally and spiritually . . . according to how each person's personality is developing either in a worldly way or in God's love.

    Ones now already are increasing in what is of Heaven's love or of Hell's "spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience." (in Ephesians 2:2)

    What God has done can not be overpowered by evil. But what becomes of a worldly person can be changed by the almighty power of God, so the person is a new creation in Jesus and growing in the good of where he or she will be going.
     
  5. OldWiseGuy

    OldWiseGuy Wake me when it's soup. Supporter

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    There's more to 'prosperity' than money or stuff. Prosperity can also be success in that which you set out to do. This is what John meant. However, a comfortable level of wealth can bring peace of mind, something more people can use. Not everyone wants more more more. Most are happy once they've achieved a secure level of wealth.
     
  6. QvQ

    QvQ Member

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    This coronavirus has given people money but empty shelves. I ordered a new bed. The mattress factory was shut down. I can agree that wealth, real wealth must be created. Money, can't eat it, can't sleep under it. Hope the nation goes back to work soon.
     
  7. timewerx

    timewerx the village i--o--t--

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    Is this about John 10:10?

    I don't think that's what it meant. It's not about what we set out to do. A man's heart is deceitful above all things. We can't trust it to pick the right thing to do unless if John 14:12

    John 10:10 is simply about the things that bring spirit and life - the truth and the ways of the Lord. It's nothing about material wealth because material wealth can be stolen, temporal, and deceitful and because - John 6:63.

    I'm with @QvQ here. Even financial stability isn't guaranteed. Events as of late is challenging that notion.

    What works for me is the Lord's supernatural provisions like a bulletproof immune system and provisions of physical strength, speed, and unwavering physical endurance. Things you'll keep even if the whole system comes crashing down and is proving immensely useful in times like these.

    It takes us back to John 10:10. These are things that cannot be stolen and you'll keep even if the world falls apart. So it cannot be financial security.
     
  8. OldWiseGuy

    OldWiseGuy Wake me when it's soup. Supporter

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    This verse. Best of all three worlds.

    3 John 1:2
    Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.
     
  9. OldWiseGuy

    OldWiseGuy Wake me when it's soup. Supporter

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    Lots of stuff available from Amazon.
     
  10. OldWiseGuy

    OldWiseGuy Wake me when it's soup. Supporter

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    The physical and mental health of people is under threat from the social and economic effects of the pandemic. It's good if you can maintain your health and strength through it.
     
  11. Hawkins

    Hawkins Member Supporter

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    It is so because causality is actually a human concept that something on a time spot can only be affected by something happened before that point but not after. So the basic establishment is based on the "fact" that humans are bound to the axis of time-space. The question is who made that happen that humans are bound to such a situation that time cannot be reversed. The concept beyond the concept of time is that "God speaks it so" such that it is so.

    Cause and effect is a matter of a time axis which is not reversible onto which humans are bound, such that something occurred is caused by something happened before that point in the axis of time but not after. Christianity goes beyond that as the concept of Word or logos is more absolute, that God can speak time itself into existence.

    Not only so, but also that human judgment is not time-bound in a sense. Judgment by Law (applicable to the angels) is an objective mean to measure one's past deeds. Jesus' crucifixion is a justification which allows Jesus to apply a subjective judgment. God's judgment is far more advanced than a judgment of Law in that, Law judges one's past and one's deeds, but God's judgments judges one's heart and one's past, present and future at the same time. You are thus refused to be set foot on the soil of Heaven possibly because you would sin in the future (Law can't make such a judgment but Jesus reserves the right to do so, simply because He can and legitimate through His self sacrifice as the justification).

    So to answer the question that if freewill sins here, will freewill sin in Heaven the same way? It won't, as it would have been stopped when it's still on earth. Someone would sin in the future won't stand a chance to set foot on the soil of Heaven (where the cause is in the future with its effect being right now).
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2020
  12. timewerx

    timewerx the village i--o--t--

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    I've been working from home years before the Covid crisis. No social life, no outdoor hobbies. The only reason I go out of the house is buy groceries or go to church.

    So to me, life is almost 100% normal even under very tight community quarantine. Just unable to go to church is what changed.

    It's been my life since becoming a Christian. Suddenly, I lost my desire for the things of this world. I used to love cars, going to the beach, road trips, social gatherings, etc. Suddenly lost their appeal to me. The truth will change you. Most people will hate it. Dramatically illustrated in John Chapter 6 when most of the thousands of people following Christ abandoned Him after hearing only a portion of this truth.

    It's a prayer of John to a fellow believer, read also verse 1 (3 John 1:1-4)

    Note he used the word "may" or "mayest". It's not a guarantee.
     
  13. QvQ

    QvQ Member

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    I became quieter after becoming a Christian. I lead a much simpler life now. Interesting you should mention that. I haven't made any changes for the quarantine either.
     
  14. OldWiseGuy

    OldWiseGuy Wake me when it's soup. Supporter

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    If John were alive today would he not wish this for most?

    On a personal level life comes down to... health and wealth.
     
  15. timewerx

    timewerx the village i--o--t--

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    I'm not sure St. John will be on our side. Have you read all of his epistles yet?

    Fortunately, a believer's life is upon The Rock, not the fickle sands of health and wealth. Quite ironic in light of recent events.
     
  16. OldWiseGuy

    OldWiseGuy Wake me when it's soup. Supporter

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    Jesus healed people. What was that all about?

    It is very likely that millions (including me) are praying to God, in Jesus' name, for the end of this pandemic.

    Also, it's hard to help others when you're sick and broke. :( The 'widow's mites' were wonderful symbolically, but did little real good. Those that are well-heeled are the most effective charitable contributors.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2020 at 10:45 AM
  17. public hermit

    public hermit social troglodyte Supporter

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    Cause and effect are part of what ensures order, understandability, and predictability. Imagine a world where things were wholly, randomly related. Assuming for the sake of argument we could exist in such a world, we wouldn't be able to make sense of it. We wouldn't know what to expect. Assuming we could exist in such a world, we probably wouldn't last very long. The Logos, or the Reason, of the world is what makes life possible.

    One thing the Pre-Socratic philosophers recognized is that even though there is much difference in the world, there is also sameness. So, one side could argue that everything changes (can't step in the same river twice). Another side could argue that there is no change, it's all one. Eventually this difference/sameness came to be seen as the distinction between matter and form. Form is the sameness in difference, and matter is that which differentiates. Whatever the case, very early on humans recognized that this wonderful order in which we live, regardless of how chaotic it might sometimes get, is what makes understanding and life possible.

    This doesn't answer your questions, but they are the not-so-random thoughts that occurred to me. ;)
     
  18. timewerx

    timewerx the village i--o--t--

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    It did a huge good thing in the Kingdom of God. It did a huge good to the saints. Whether it actually happened or not. Nothing about it is symbolic.

    I think the problem is you place too much faith in material wealth. It will blind you to things that matter more.

    Apart from unhealthy food, lack of physical activity/exercise, unhealthy thoughts, obsessive fear of death / disease, and genetic defects. Good health is free.

    My great grandmother lived to mid 90's without spending a dime on healthcare / medicines. Still walked around to her 90's.

    They were very poor (in a 3rd world country where medicines are too expensive for the poor). Her diet is almost entirely home cooked vegetables. Some home-grown vegetables, some wild plants.
     
  19. OldWiseGuy

    OldWiseGuy Wake me when it's soup. Supporter

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    Have you noticed that most charities have boxes numerated in donations of $10, $15, $20, $25, etc. It's because they can't survive on the $1.50 contributions that many (widows?) are used to sending and thus are 'suggesting' larger donations. This is where 'material wealth' has great spiritual value (not to demean those small contributions in any way). Also a modicum of financial comfort allows me to be a sustaining contributor to several charities.
     
  20. LaBèlla

    LaBèlla ❤️ Supporter

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    I have a friend who longs to solve problems through charitable work. Like Bill and Melinda’s foundation. That’s his heart’s desire. But he doesn’t have the capital yet.

    I have a similar attraction to philanthropy and funding special interests through my own organization. I think God places those desires within us. He provides the means or supporters to accomplish the work.

    ~Bella
     
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