4 Reasons John was writing a gospel sermon about suffering under Rome

[nolidad]

I find the biblical metaphors far more convincing than the super-stretching many futurists do in interpreting Revelation. The idea that the giant locusts were actually some sort of soldier in a mech suit amuses me - but is not what John's mix of biblical metaphors is about. He doesn't write so that only people 2000 years later can understand - he writes so his generation can hear and understand and obey his message. How on earth would YOU obey a message about the Reds fighting the Greens on Mars in 2000 years!? Hear and obey!

Well I agree with you that dispensationalists who speak and write like allegorists and preterists or partial preterists are just as wrong as preterists who twist the Scriptures to make them fit into a 1st Century fulfillment.

I agree that JOhn wrote so people could have a glimpse ( I don't believe a 10 headed beast is going to arise from the sea either) the fact that after the letters to the churches, nothing has been literally fulfilled on earth (remember even symbolic passages have to be literally fulfilled on earth) means they are yet to come.

So he can write in intricate detail about some futurist interpretation of conflicts between nation-states that did not even exist in his own time, but can't write in general terms about the broad categories of persecution Rome was about to inflict from his own time? Interesting.

He could have if that is what God chose for HIm. But the seals, trumpets and bowls were not even remotely fulfilled anytime from now till John so that issue is moot! And having studied and taughtEschatology for 35 years now, I do not see John writing in that intricate of detail about the future conflicts to take place!

I have covered this in a previous post and it most definitely is used as "soon". You need to retract this statement. But here it is again.

REVELATION 1: SOON
How is the word SOON used in the rest of the New Testament?

The NIV renders Revelation 1:1 as:-
"The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place."

The Hendrickson Interlinear bible renders it in the side-bar text:
"A revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to Him to show His slaves things which musts occur quickly."

Then, under the word for word greek to english translation, it reads:
"Must occur with speed".

Bible hub has it as ἐν τάχει, en tachei or "in quickness"
Revelation 1:1 Interlinear: A revelation of Jesus Christ, that God gave to him, to shew to his servants what things it behoveth to come to pass quickly; and he did signify it, having sent through his messenger to his servant John,

First I challenge you to give a short synopsis of teh seals, trumpets, and bowls (and the mark and image coming alive) and show what you think fulfilled these in teh first century!

But let us look at the Book a little more closely and see something which preterists and partial preterists fail to see!

Revelation 1
King James Version
1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

John sees a vison of Jesus and the Holy Spirit and is told to write to teh seven churches. those things were the things that shortly came to pass! (the events warned in the 7 letters)

This covers chapters 1-3.

Then John writes this:

Revelation 4
King James Version
4 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.


After what?????? Teh vision and command to write the 7 letters to teh seven churches about the things which will shortly come to pass.

So chapter four starts a brand new context! That we know because in HIs vision John says "AFTER THIS" .

Hereafter is "meta tauta" and because it follows two verbs

"must" which is:
Speech: Verb

Tense: Present

Voice: Impersonal Active

Mood: Indicative

Person: 3rd Person

Number: Singular

And "be" another verb whic is:

Speech: Verb

Tense: Second Aorist

Voice: Middle Deponent

Mood: Infinitive

In English it is best rendered as the next things are things that will happen sometime afterwards with no definitive time frame in mind!

The next verse shows John saying:

Revelation 4:2
King James Version
2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

Immediately is: "eutheos" which means with out delay or right away!

So it is up to the preterist to prove that the seals, trumpets, bowls mark, image and the return of Jesus in REv. 19 are symbolic of events that are historical and still yet future!

And please kind of sort of fits , is good enough for horseshoes and nuclear bombs, but not the Word of God!

 

[keras]

No the 12 sons of Israel are the true Israel of God!

The true Israel of god are those faithful Israelis who have been the remnant in all generations to this day and into the future.

Well, that's good then, as we all have some of Abrahams genes, both literally and Spiritually. Galatians 3:26-29

Your belief of a separate Church and Israel of God, is not scriptural and in quite illogical.

 

[eclipsenow]

No the 12 sons of Israel are the true Israel of God!

The true Israel of god are those faithful Israelis who have been the remnant in all generations to this day and into the future.

Galatians 6:15-17
King James Version
15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

17 From henceforth let no man trouble me: for I bear in my body the marks of the Lord Jesus.

If the believing church is the Israel of God- then Paul was excluding the Galatians from being part of teh Church!

Israel is Israel and believers are the church-the Body of Christ! Jews who believe become part of teh body of Christ and are the true Israel of God!

How does this relate to the opening post? Also, who uses the KJV any more - it's awful on the ear?

 

[eclipsenow]

First I challenge you to give a short synopsis of teh seals, trumpets, and bowls (and the mark and image coming alive) and show what you think fulfilled these in teh first century!

A broad outline:-

There are 3 parts - the first vision (letter to the churches), the next vision that describes the general flavour of these Last Days (2000 years and counting), and then the 3 different camera angles on Judgement Day.

As Bishop Paul Barnett explains, the 1000 years we are in (long period of time between Jesus resurrection and return) have the following cycles described all in parallel - along side each other - not to be read sequentially like some sort of future timeline.
HUMAN HISTORY: THE 1000 YEARS:-
Seven seals depicting TYRANNY (then back to the beginning to describe)...
Seven trumpets depicting CHAOS in nature (then back to the beginning to describe)...
Seven signs depicting PERSECUTION (then back to the beginning to describe)...
Seven plagues depicting DESTRUCTION.
These episodes are concurrent, not consecutive.

Wouldn't it be ironic if we were looking for how the Corona Virus pandemic fit into some future timeline and missed it entirely because we were looking for a timeline prediction rather than a thematic description? What if we missed the entire point of Revelation, and missed biblical warnings and encouragements about our lives now - and the last 2000 years - because we were trying to read it with the wrong glasses on?
https://www.amazon.com/Apocalypse-Now-Then-Revelation-Commentaries/dp/1875861416

Bottom line - it describes natural disasters, tyrants persecuting the church, 'beast-states', the temptations of trusting in materialism and luxury and even state security, and all manner of other things the human race have experienced over the last 2000 years and into the next. Revelation was a book John wrote about impending Roman persecution, but also other themes. Some images (like the beast) describe Roman stuff, other things are more generic. Not everything has to be fulfilled in the first century because it was a general description of life and the various temptations we'll face.

To put it plainly, while Rev 13 describes Rome's persecution of the Christians in Asia Minor, it also tells us general principles about our beast states. Hitler was one beast state, Stalin another, North Korea yet another. There are many examples - and Amil Christians that live under these look to Revelation as a book of comfort. They laugh at the idea that John would have told his generation of suffering Christians "You think you've got it bad, wait till you see what happens in 2000 years!"

So chapter four starts a brand new context! That we know because in HIs vision John says "AFTER THIS".

It's just like a doctor calling out 'Next!' to the waiting room.
It's saying the next things I saw in my vision.
It doesn't add 2000 years.
It doesn't change the urgency of Chapter 1.
It doesn't mean John suddenly doesn't want his generation to hear and obey his message.
It just says "after this I immediately saw this..."

So it is up to the preterist to prove that the seals, trumpets, bowls mark, image and the return of Jesus in REv. 19 are symbolic of events that are historical and still yet future!

Huh? John's just saying "I saw this and then I saw this..."
He's not dating the visions for us - just telling us what order he saw them in.
The visions and images and metaphors describe what John is discussing and show them to be timeless thematic examples of what life will be like - generally speaking.

 

[Timtofly]

I'm sorry if I gave that impression - maybe you misunderstood me showing the illogical and unfeeling consequences of a futurist reading of Revelation? Can you please show me an example of where I mocked John? Thanks.

No matter how any one views it, John was a futurist. When any one read it, they were futurist. Making a bunch of points 2000 years after the fact cannot change those two facts. I do not believe a word you say to the contrary. Making fun of the future, and walking backwards is a poor way to avoid judgment and error.

 

[eclipsenow]

No matter how any one views it, John was a futurist.

Modern American culture has been moved to read it as futurist because of the Omen "Damien Thorn" movies. I know as a teenager I found it the most exciting and spooky book, because it was all about scary things that could throw my future plans off course. But - that's the reality of anyone living in any age, isn't it? That's just wisdom literature from Proverbs or Ecclesiastes. It's also the message of Revelation, with the extra specific purpose of showing us how even though God's people the church might be persecuted now and then, Jesus has saved us and will see us through.

But really, "John was a futurist" in the sense that he was generally describing what life would be like till the Lord returns. So that's 2000 years and counting. But a specific future timetable that only the last generation could understand? I find that position absurd in the face of Chapter 1, and smacks too much of Hollywood.

When any one read it, they were futurist.

Incorrect - in my theological neighbourhood futurists are the exception, not the rule.

Making a bunch of points 2000 years after the fact cannot change those two facts.

Well, you are asserting a bunch of things but without clear argumentation let alone 'facts'.

Augustine seems to have been an optimistic amillennial that postmillennials are almost trying to claim as their own. But basically from the little I know about him he's more accurately Amil. As the wiki says:

Augustine originally believed in premillennialism, namely that Christ would establish a literal 1,000-year kingdom prior to the general resurrection, but later rejected the belief, viewing it as carnal. He was the first theologian to expound a systematic doctrine of amillennialism, although some theologians and Christian historians believe his position was closer to that of modern postmillennialists. The Catholic Church during the Medieval period built its system of eschatology on Augustinian amillennialism, where Christ rules the earth spiritually through his triumphant church.[120]

During the Reformation theologians such as John Calvin accepted amillennialism.​

I do not believe a word you say to the contrary.

Then perhaps you can explain to me why you just insert whatever you want into chapter 1? Futurists claim they read Revelation 'literally' except of course for Chapter 1! They'll dance around the plain meaning of that text all they want. I'll add what you have done to the text in red.

"to show his servants what must soon take place - except I John didn't know what I was saying then, and really meant 2000 years"

"blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it - in 2000 years of course - because no one will understand it before then!

"because the time is near - except by that I really mean 2000 years."

"I, John, your brother and partner in the tribulation and the kingdom and the patient endurance that are in Jesus, except I'm not really your partner in the tribulation because this book isn't even really about you but about people suffering in 2000 years..."

Bzzzzt - sorry - thank you for playing!

 

[Timtofly]

Modern American culture has been moved to read it as futurist because of the Omen "Damien Thorn" movies. I know as a teenager I found it the most exciting and spooky book, because it was all about scary things that could throw my future plans off course. But - that's the reality of anyone living in any age, isn't it? That's just wisdom literature from Proverbs or Ecclesiastes. It's also the message of Revelation, with the extra specific purpose of showing us how even though God's people the church might be persecuted now and then, Jesus has saved us and will see us through.

But really, "John was a futurist" in the sense that he was generally describing what life would be like till the Lord returns. So that's 2000 years and counting. But a specific future timetable that only the last generation could understand? I find that position absurd in the face of Chapter 1, and smacks too much of Hollywood.


Incorrect - in my theological neighbourhood futurists are the exception, not the rule.


Well, you are asserting a bunch of things but without clear argumentation let alone 'facts'.

Augustine seems to have been an optimistic amillennial that postmillennials are almost trying to claim as their own. But basically from the little I know about him he's more accurately Amil. As the wiki says:

Augustine originally believed in premillennialism, namely that Christ would establish a literal 1,000-year kingdom prior to the general resurrection, but later rejected the belief, viewing it as carnal. He was the first theologian to expound a systematic doctrine of amillennialism, although some theologians and Christian historians believe his position was closer to that of modern postmillennialists. The Catholic Church during the Medieval period built its system of eschatology on Augustinian amillennialism, where Christ rules the earth spiritually through his triumphant church.[120]

During the Reformation theologians such as John Calvin accepted amillennialism.​

Then perhaps you can explain to me why you just insert whatever you want into chapter 1? Futurists claim they read Revelation 'literally' except of course for Chapter 1! They'll dance around the plain meaning of that text all they want. I'll add what you have done to the text in red.

"to show his servants what must soon take place - except I John didn't know what I was saying then, and really meant 2000 years"

"blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it - in 2000 years of course - because no one will understand it before then!

"because the time is near - except by that I really mean 2000 years."

"I, John, your brother and partner in the tribulation and the kingdom and the patient endurance that are in Jesus, except I'm not really your partner in the tribulation because this book isn't even really about you but about people suffering in 2000 years..."

Bzzzzt - sorry - thank you for playing!

So this red markup just proves you are mocking John.

Why blame me for being born in the mid 1900s? I have not inserted any interpretation into Revelation 1. The most you can accuse me of is ignoring it.

Augustine lived in the middle of a Millennium. What did he know? There had not even been 400 years gone by. He could not live for another 600 years to prove he was wrong or right. If he was a-mill he was denying even the first Millennium existed. How does that work if he was still alive himself in the Millennium? So now 1000 is allegorical for 450 years?

 

[eclipsenow]

So this red markup just proves you are mocking John.

I'm poking fun at the futurist understanding of the plain text in Chapter 1.

Why blame me for being born in the mid 1900s? I have not inserted any interpretation into Revelation 1.

It's not my fault you can't defend your own position.

Augustine lived in the middle of a Millennium. What did he know? There had not even been 400 years gone by. He could not live for another 600 years to prove he was wrong or right. If he was a-mill he was denying even the first Millennium existed. How does that work if he was still alive himself in the Millennium? So now 1000 is allegorical for 450 years?

Look - maybe this conversation isn't for you.

 

[Timtofly]

I'm poking fun at the futurist understanding of the plain text in Chapter 1.
It's not my fault you can't defend your own position.
Look - maybe this conversation isn't for you.

This ideology is not for anybody.

Does it make logical points? Of course it does. Does it help any one living today?

This topic will not even help those living 2000 years from now.

 

[eclipsenow]

This topic will not even help those living 2000 years from now.

If the Lord delays his return that long, who knows how many people will have remained Christians because they were Amil? But I've seen so many failed 'prophecies' based on a futurist understanding of Revelation that some of those have got to shake some Christian's faith. And it's so unnecessary! John was writing to his generation about his generation's suffering - and through that lens to us as well. It's just like the epistles to specific churches. They were to them specifically, but also for the universal church afterwards to learn from, meditate on, and be encouraged by.

 

[keras]

I've seen so many failed 'prophecies' based on a futurist understanding of Revelation that some of those have got to shake some Christian's faith.

The Prophesies of Revelation from Rev 6:12 onward, have not failed, they simply haven't taken place as yet. They will, it is just a matter of God's timing. Habakkuk 2:3

For anyone to scoff and deride those who believe their mostly literal future fulfilment, 2 Peter 3:1-7, has a message for you.

 

[eclipsenow]

The Prophesies of Revelation from Rev 6:12 onward, have not failed, they simply haven't taken place as yet.

I'm not saying the bible has failed at all!
I'm saying the many silly specific end-times-tables individuals have cooked up trying to interpret Revelation - these have failed. Time and again. In fact, any time someone puts a date on them!

They will, it is just a matter of God's timing. Habakkuk 2:3

Ah, but of course you're just assuming you can cut Chapter 1 out of Revelation and not answer the top 4 questions I've put to you, time and again!
You're just assuming you are right - and that these are predictions, not descriptions.

But I think I'll stick with the way Christians have been reading it for thousands of years - more or less - as Amils, and as descriptions of life now.

As we saw above, Augustine was Amil.

For anyone to scoff and deride those who believe their mostly literal future fulfilment, 2 Peter 3:1-7, has a message for you.

You futurists are really quick to jump on your high horse, but haven't proved your assumptions behind your then oh-so-high-horse application of 2 Peter.

I'll add what you have done to the text in red.

"to show his servants what must soon take place - except I John didn't know what I was saying then, and really meant 2000 years"

"blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it - in 2000 years of course - because no one will understand it before then!

"because the time is near - except by that I really mean 2000 years."

"I, John, your brother and partner in the tribulation and the kingdom and the patient endurance that are in Jesus, except I'm not really your partner in the tribulation because this book isn't even really about you but about people suffering in 2000 years..."

And yet look at Revelation 22!

"I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll."​

So why are you adding to Revelation? Because John clearly says he already shared in their tribulation - so it had already started. He shares 2 visions: one a warning to the 7 churches (really all churches, because there were more than 7 churches in that area but John chose the number 7 to represent God's perfect number of completeness - all churches!

Vision two: describes the period between resurrection and return - finishing with a big triple angle description of our gospel hope in the return of Christ.

In this way, all Christians in all ages can understand and obey this book.

In your way, the vast majority of the book is is mystifying and incomprehensible - let alone being clear enough to be obeyed. But that's clearly what John wants! His readers, in his generation, to obey his message! But you've just ruled that out.

 

[keras]

I'm not saying the bible has failed at all!
I'm saying the many silly specific end-times-tables individuals have cooked up trying to interpret Revelation - these have failed. Time and again. In fact, any time someone puts a date on them!

Unfortunately, there have been many wrong predictions and that has now led the the 'cry wolf syndrome', where people just discount any predictions.
Up until now, as Daniel 12:4 says; the Prophesies have been sealed, so all the past prophecy 'experts' were wrong. But now, with the 2000 year Church era nearly completed, the veil has been lifted for those who do not confuse themselves with false teachings.
SOMEONE is going to be proved right, or God has given us all those prophesies for no reason.

I won't answer your accusations, as for you the fulfillment of Revelation will be a shocking surprise.

 

[eclipsenow]

Unfortunately, there have been many wrong predictions and that has now led the the 'cry wolf syndrome', where people just discount any predictions.

Exactly! And then there's Chapter 1, which you keep avoiding, and the application of Chapter 1, which you keep avoiding.

EG: How was John's generation meant to OBEY it given you're saying the majority of the book was written about 2000 years later?

Up until now, as Daniel 12:4 says; the Prophesies have been sealed, so all the past prophecy 'experts' were wrong.

Ah, so what John should have done is say he'd love to give his suffering generation a helping hand but the scrolls were still sealed. But wait, doesn't John then go on to explain that the scrolls are unsealed and the answer is Jesus death and resurrection? That basically, the key to the scrolls is the gospel itself?

“Worthy are you to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God
from every tribe and language and people and nation,
10 and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God,
and they shall reign on the earth.”

it's not that Jesus death and resurrection was some kind of magic trick that qualifies him to open the seals and let history progress. It's that the gospel events themselves ARE the key to the contents of the scroll - history cannot continue in God's good plans without Jesus saving work to enable the fulfilment of God's plans.

It's that Jesus death and resurrection is the fulcrum of history, ushering in the Last Days 2000 years ago! (see Peter's Pentecost sermon and of course Hebrews 1:1).

But now, with the 2000 year Church era nearly completed, the veil has been lifted for those who do not confuse themselves with false teachings.

Sorry - the great mystery hidden for ages was that God would allow his son to die in our place, and then rise again. It's the gospel.
Hebrews:
1 In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son,

SOMEONE is going to be proved right,

Eventually, yes!

or God has given us all those prophesies for no reason.

Or you've made a category mistake and they're not prophesies at all but a sermon to keep going on in different circumstances.

I won't answer your accusations, as for you the fulfillment of Revelation will be a shocking surprise.

Ah, so you're finally admitting you don't have answers? Come on - try again!

"to show his servants what must soon take place - except I John didn't know what I was saying then, and really meant 2000 years"

"blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it - in 2000 years of course - because no one will understand it before then!

"because the time is near - except by that I really mean 2000 years."

"I, John, your brother and partner in the tribulation and the kingdom and the patient endurance that are in Jesus, except I'm not really your partner in the tribulation because this book isn't even really about you but about people suffering in 2000 years..."

Anyway, every few years is a shocking surprise.
Parenthood.
9/11.
Trump getting elected.
Covid.
But why am I surprised? I shouldn't be. I should be reading Revelation more, as it is the sermon that describes this period of history between the Resurrection and Return as ...

Seven seals depicting TYRANNY (then back to the beginning to describe)...
Seven trumpets depicting CHAOS in nature (then back to the beginning to describe)...
Seven signs depicting PERSECUTION (then back to the beginning to describe)...
Seven plagues depicting DESTRUCTION.
These episodes are concurrent, not consecutive.
And they describe 2000 years and counting.

 

[nolidad]

Well, that's good then, as we all have some of Abrahams genes, both literally and Spiritually. Galatians 3:26-29

Your belief of a separate Church and Israel of God, is not scriptural and in quite illogical.

No it is biblical!

Prove you have genetics from one of the twelve sons of Jacob!

The separation is only for the purpose of the millenial or Messianic Kingdom as at length described in SCripture!

Israel is not part of the Body of Christ (the church) . Jews who accept Christ in the NT are part of the Bride of Christ (the Church).

God said He shall give a kingdom to the nation of Israel and He shall when Jesus returns! We regin as jesus bride!

 

[nolidad]

How does this relate to the opening post? Also, who uses the KJV any more - it's awful on the ear?

It was a response to someone.

Well many in my church use it! I have used it for over 40 years so I am very comfortable with it.

But I am adept with the NISV, NKJV, NASB,ASV and several others.

 

[nolidad]

It's just like a doctor calling out 'Next!' to the waiting room.
It's saying the next things I saw in my vision.
It doesn't add 2000 years.
It doesn't change the urgency of Chapter 1.
It doesn't mean John suddenly doesn't want his generation to hear and obey his message.
It just says "after this I immediately saw this...

No this is a mystical retranslating of the clear words of Scripture.

But if you wish to use a doctor analogy- this is a vision and Doctor God is now showing John the next part of a vision He is giving him.

Chapter one is tied to the letters! Chapter four is something that occurs after the urgency of the letters!

A broad outline:-

There are 3 parts - the first vision (letter to the churches), the next vision that describes the general flavour of these Last Days (2000 years and counting), and then the 3 different camera angles on Judgement Day.

As Bishop Paul Barnett explains, the 1000 years we are in (long period of time between Jesus resurrection and return) have the following cycles described all in parallel - along side each other - not to be read sequentially like some sort of future timeline.
HUMAN HISTORY: THE 1000 YEARS:-
Seven seals depicting TYRANNY (then back to the beginning to describe)...
Seven trumpets depicting CHAOS in nature (then back to the beginning to describe)...
Seven signs depicting PERSECUTION (then back to the beginning to describe)...
Seven plagues depicting DESTRUCTION.
These episodes are concurrent, not consecutive.

I guess Paul Barnett is lousy at math! The thousand years has been 1920+ years and counting. But hey if you are going to redefine what Scripture clearly says, I guess anything can go.

Funny you say they are genral conditions, but God inspired one of the writers of Scripture to go into great detail abou these general things and even at times put time frames to them!

The bible declares them as consecutive and not concurrent, but Hey what the heck! If we are going to translate gods Word- I guess anything can go. Just ask the dozens of others who have done the same!

Jesus in the Oliver discourse even gave us the general conditions of the time from HIs departure until He returns and they are not even close to the seals, trumpets and bowls!

To put it plainly, while Rev 13 describes Rome's persecution of the Christians in Asia Minor, it also tells us general principles about our beast states. Hitler was one beast state, Stalin another, North Korea yet another. There are many examples - and Amil Christians that live under these look to Revelation as a book of comfort. They laugh at the idea that John would have told his generation of suffering Christians "You think you've got it bad, wait till you see what happens in 2000 years!"

Oh we know! I find revelation a book of comfort as well!

But yes amillenials laugh at these things possibly coming to pass as written ! Just like they(as the super majority of the church at the time) laughed and mocked and scorned those believers in the 19th century who had the audacity to say that the nation of Israel would happen again and Jews would travel back to their land and Jerusalem would once again be their capitol! I love the amusing missives written by Amils trying to show why this even twhich fulilled Biblical Prophecy was just a mere coincidence. And I cherished those precious saints who finally realized that a dispensational hermeneutic does far far far less harm to the Scripurtes than an allegorical hermeneutic with an amillenial eschatology

 

[timothyu]

Israel is not part of the Body of Christ (the church) . Jews who accept Christ in the NT are part of the Bride of Christ (the Church).

Make that guests at the wedding feast that the original invitees turned down.

 

[keras]

God said He shall give a kingdom to the nation of Israel and He shall when Jesus returns! We regin as jesus bride!

The Kingdom was taken from the Jews and there is nowhere it is said they will get it back. Matthew 21:43
You are hopelessly confused about our role in the Kingdom of Jesus in the Millennium. Revelation 5:9-10

 

[eclipsenow]

No it is biblical!

Prove you have genetics from one of the twelve sons of Jacob!

The separation is only for the purpose of the millenial or Messianic Kingdom as at length described in SCripture!

Israel is not part of the Body of Christ (the church) . Jews who accept Christ in the NT are part of the Bride of Christ (the Church).

God said He shall give a kingdom to the nation of Israel and He shall when Jesus returns! We regin as jesus bride!

How about we write every sentence with an exclamation mark!
How about we go off topic again!
How about we ignore the first chapter of John!
How about we just hijack this guy's thread and talk about all sorts of other things!