4 Reasons John was writing a gospel sermon about suffering under Rome

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timothyu

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How does Peter calling Rome 'Babylon' fit in with the harlot in Rev. 17 who sits on seven hills and Babylon (Rome)? The church that less than two hundred and fifty years after the writing of Rev. whored itself back to the Roman Empire to work in tandem with the world of man and become a worldly power itself having rejected the Kingdom? Was that a past or future event?
 
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parousia70

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How does Peter calling Rome 'Babylon' fit in with the harlot in Rev. 17 who sits on seven hills and Babylon (Rome)? The church that less than two hundred and fifty years after the writing of Rev. whored itself back to the Roman Empire to work in tandem with the world of man and become a worldly power itself having rejected the Kingdom? Was that a past or future event?

Peter Doesn't call Rome Babylon.

He calls 1st Century Jerusalem Babylon:

"By Silvanus, ...I have written you. ...The Church in Babylon ...sends you her greeting, and Mark my son." (I Peter 5:12,13)
"Babylon" was Jerusalem. Jerusalem was where both "Mark" and "Silvanus" lived (Acts 12:12; 15:22-40).

Peter wrote his first epistle from Jerusalem in about A.D. 65, calling her "Babylon." Peter was a "pillar" at Jerusalem (Gal. 1:18; 2:9; Acts 15:7). He was the Apostle of the Circumcision (Gal. 2:7-9).

John likewise confirms 1st century Jerusalem is the Great Harlot City Babylon:

Jerusalem is the Great City in the book of Revelation (Rev 11:8). She is Babylon (1 Pet 5:12-13), the Harlot that rode on the Beast's back (her alliance with Ancient Rome) before the Beast turned on her and made her desolate and burned her with fire (Rev 17:16; Lk.21:20).

Earthly Jerusalem, by Divine right and calling, was the preeminent city among all nations. The Hebrew/Biblical understanding of Jerusalem is that she is the "Chief of the nations" (Jeremiah 31:7; Ez 5:5), the Queen city of the earth (Lam 1:1/Rev 18:7). She, by Divine right and covenant, was appointed as the head of all nations (Deut 26:19; Deut 15:6; Deut 28:1,10-13), and the gentile kings recognized God's dwelling was at Jerusalem with the Hebrews (1 Ki 10:24; Luke 11:31; Ezra 1:2; Dan 2:47, 3:28-29, 4:1-3, 4:17, 4:34-37; Ezra 1; Ezra 4-7; Ezra 7:15,23).

The Governor of all nations (Ps. 22:28) lived in Jerusalem in his House (Ez 7:15,23), and all the kingdom, power and might over earth was His (1 Chron 29:11-12). Indeed, all kings receive their power to rule from that Divine King (Rom 13:1-2,6; John 19:11; 1 Pet 2:13-14,17; Ez 1:2; Dan 1:1-2; Dan 2:20-21; Dan 2:37-38; Dan 2:47, Dan 3:28-29; Dan 4:1-3,17,34-37.).

Yet, Jerusalem was also famous for becoming The Harlot City -- an unfaithful spouse to her King (Isa 1:21; Jer 3:6-10; Ez 16:37-39). She had become "drunk with the blood of the saints" (Rev 17:6; Rev 18:20,24; 1 Thess 2:15-16) as Christ had prophesied she would (Mt 23:33-37; Lk 11:50-51).

Sadly, the "great city," Jerusalem (Rev 11:8), had fallen, and had become the habitation of demons and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird (Rev 18:2). The Queen City Jerusalem (Rev 18:7/Lam1:1), which had been great among the nations (Lam 1:1), had become a widow (Rev 18:7/Lam1:1). And She, having become an unfaithful Harlot to God, was thus "burned with fire" (Rev 18:8/17:16) as her covenant law demanded for her (Lev 21:9). The blood of all the apostles and prophets who she famously killed (Matt 23:33-36; Matt 21:34-39; Lk 13:33; Acts 7:52; 1 Thess 2:15-16; Lk 11:47; Neh 9:26; 1 Ki 19:14) was avenged upon her (Matt 23:33-37; Rev 16:6; Rev 18:20,24; 1 Thess 2:15-16).

Jerusalem Sits on Seven Hills
Seven Hills of Jerusalem

  • The Mount of Olives (826 m)
  • Mount Scopus (826m )
  • Mount of Corruption (747m)
  • Original Mount Zion / Temple Mount (740 m)
  • The New Mount Zion / Western Hill (765 m)
  • Mount Ophel
  • Anotonia Fortress Hill
It's Past.
 
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Neogaia777

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It was/is about things that have happened, will happen (did happen), and will continue to happen and/or come yet still in the future (again), etc...

It was about things that already had happened in the past, and were going to be taking place or happen (again) in the present (at that time), and were going to continue to take place or happen (again) in the future, etc...

I was about the cycles of fallen earth, and fallen man, and fallen doomed to fail systems that mankind would go through, and have to go through or have gone through, and would have to continue to go through, and endure till the end of them, and only at the very end of the book, tells what will happen and take place after that, or after them, to the ending of this creation, and the new beginning of a whole new one, etc...

This is why it is so difficult to understand, especially in all it's specific details, etc, cause I don't know if it is meant to be fully understood in all of it's specifics, or specific details (yet), etc...

We might only be able to know or ever see that, only looking back maybe, etc...

As is the case with a lot of the more symbolic, and more prophetic books, etc, I certainly don't understand "all of it's details", etc, and I think only a fool can claim to fully know and/or understand, let alone comprehend, let alone be able to fully articulate so as to adequately explain to anyone else, all of it's specific details, as they apply to every and all time, and all time periods or periods and points and places in time, etc, whether past, present, and/or future, etc...

God Bless!
 
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nolidad

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John indicates 4 times in Chapter 1 of Revelation that 'these things' he's discussing will start soon - and that the whole book is probably about the Roman persecution of the church.
1. "to show his servants what must soon take place"
2. " blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it" - how could the early church obey something that was addressed to Christians 2000 years later?
3. "because the time is near."
4. he SHARES in their tribulation! - John was already in jail because of Rome.
Basically, if Revelation is some sort of timetable that only the last generation will understand:-
  • what good has it been for the church for the last 2000 years?
  • Why can't anyone agree on this end-times timetable? ;-) Why is it so vague when Jesus and his death and resurrection and the epistles about him are mostly fairly clear?
  • Compare that to Amillennials that see it as a book that neatly describes the Roman persecution of the church, Roman temptation to Christians of money wealth and empire, and Roman appeal to trusting in State security rather than God's eternal security. In this case, Revelation has been a relevant warning and encouragement to all Christians in all societies for the last 2000 years. In fact, Christians I know of who have been persecuted in Muslim countries read it this way and laugh at the idea John is talking about a future suffering. They think it silly that John would write to his suffering generation and basically say "You think you've got it bad - wait till you see what happens in 2000 years!"
  • The return of Christ at the end isn't a timetable of events but gospel vision and encouragement - it's a sermon reminding us to keep going no matter what happens. It even describes the return of Jesus in judgement from 3 different points of view - repeating the same one magnificent event from 3 camera-views - none of which work in chronological order.
  • Phd in Ancient History, theologian and retired Sydney Anglican Bishop Dr Paul Barnett explains further in "Apocalypse Now and Then". https://www.amazon.com/Apocalypse-now-then-reading-Revelation/dp/0949108421
  • I recommend learning Amil theology as it will free modern Christians from the endless fretting over which credit card or computer chip might be the 'mark of the beast' and being diverted by endless speculation over geopolitical matters and how they fit into a 'Revelation timetable'. Amil will help rather focus them on living for Christ each day and being more compassionate in their local affairs and realistic in their politics.

There is a huge serious problem with that!

John wrote the revelation in the early 90's AD! Also being on teh isle of Patmos He would not have had access to much information as to what was going on in the empire! Patmos was a prison and John was a prisoner of Rome in that mining prosion.

Also an amill eschatology relies extra ordinarily on an allegorical hermeneutic and interpreting the symbols found in REvelation with fantastical concepts.

If it is a vision to keep going- why repeat that after Jesus said so , so many times!

Also the "soon" of revelation is the greek word "en" which really doesn't mean quickly but at an or the appointed time designated.

The problem with AMill interpretation is that it takes the seals,trumpets and bowls and symbolizes the symbols. they just can't believe that all that mess will actually literally take place!

Money and Empire??? No it was to recant Jesus and accept Cesar to live! NOt to gain fame, fortune or noteriety!

In order for ths REvelation to "fit nicely" with roman persecution one has to play twister with Scripture and gerrymander words until they no longer meran what is written.

Sorry, both Amill covenant eschatology and Dispensational pre mil pre trib eschatology are man made theologies, but dispensational hereneutics do far less harm to SCriptures.
 
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timothyu

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Peter Doesn't all Rome Babylon.
Regardless of Babylon I think the focus was on the Harlot. There s no denying what the church did in tandem with the Empire at a later date would quality it as whoring itself to the empire and rejecting the Kingdom.
 
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shilohsfoal

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Babylon was destroyed by the Medes in 539 BC. Just as Isaiah Prophesied it would be in Isaiah 13... one of the Myriad reasons we know Isaiah is a true prophet of God.

You have no scriptural instruction to push Isaiah 13 into our future.

This is NOT Future to us.

Fall of Babylon - Wikipedia

The Medes didn't destroy ancient Babylon.
It was a beautiful city after Alexander defeated Persia even.



He loved the hanging gardens.
But Ancient Babylon was eventually abandoned in about 1000 ad.
Babylon - Wikipedia
That's the true history of ancient Babylon.
The Medes today are mass producing missiles to destroy Babylon the great though. 200,000 missiles all pointed at Babylon. The plan is to overwhelm thier defences and capture the city and according to scripture they succeed in capturing the city.

Jeremiah 51:11 Sharpen the arrows! Fill the quivers! The LORD has aroused the spirit of the kings of the Medes, because His plan is aimed at Babylon to destroy her, for it is the vengeance of the LORD--vengeance for His temple.

I'm betting you don't know what the temple of God is so you wouldn't understand.
 
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parousia70

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There is a huge serious problem with that!

John wrote the revelation in the early 90's AD!

The book of Revelation was written by St. John between AD 66-68, in the final years of the Neronic persecution. The internal evidence of the book concretely supports the early date, and the external evidence for this date is firmly attested to by the vast majority of well-known scholars and early Church writings.

The ONLY evidence for the 90AD Date is one single, solitary, ambiguous Statement by Irenaeus. All other Sources for the Late Date Rest Solely on his one statement.. Irenaeus also believed Jesus lived to Be 50 years old...

The Muratorian Canon (A.D. 170)
"the blessed Apostle Paul, following the rule of his predecessor John, writes to no more than seven churches by name."

"John too, indeed, in the Apocalypse, although he writes to only seven churches, yet addresses all. "


The Muratorian Canon is the oldest Latin church document of Rome, and of very great importance for the history of the canon. The witness of this manuscript, which is from the very era of Irenaeus and just prior to Clement of Alexandria, virtually demands the early date for Revelation. The relevant portion of the document states that "the blessed Apostle Paul, following the rule of his predecessor John, writes to no more than seven churches by name" and "John too, indeed, in the Apocalypse, although he writes to only seven churches, yet addresses all." The writer of the Canon clearly teaches that John preceded Paul in writing letters to seven churches. And, church historians are agreed that Paul died before A.D. 70, either in A.D. 67 or 68. Therefore, the book of Revelation with its letters to seven churches was known by Paul before Paul's death, according to the Muratorian Canon.

Robert Young (1885)
"[Revelation] was written in Patmos about A.D.68, whither John had been banished by Domitious Nero, as stated in the title of the Syriac version of the book...The internal testimony is wholly in favor of the earlier date."

(Commentary on Revelation - Young's Analytical Concordance)

Like the vast majority of Biblical scholars, Robert Young believes Revelation was written during Nero's reign and he claims that the internal testimony of the book is wholly in favor of this early date. Here is a mere snippet of the overwhelming INTERNAL evidence:

* The time statements refer to soon events of cataclysmic Jewish importance. If it was written in 90-96 AD, there are no events soon from that time that could even remotely fit. If, however, it was before 70 AD, then the destruction of Jerusalem rises to the occasion as both Jewish and cataclysmic. The time statements demand we look here, and there is no historic support for a persecution of the Church under Domitian in the 90s.

* According to the epistles to the churches, there were still Judaizers (Revelation 2:9
; 3:9)
presenting problems in the churches. This, would be ridiculous after 70 AD

* The temple and the city were still standing in Revelation 11, because John is sent to measure them. This would not be possible after 70 AD. And if John is referring to some rebuilt temple in the far distant future, and he is writing in 90-96 AD, then his complete silence about the destruction of the temple and city in 70 AD is deafening.

* There were "other apostles" still around according to Revelation 2:2. Tradition has it that all the apostles were dead before 70 AD and John was the only original surviving past that time.

* Caesar Nero's name in Hebrew gematria adds up to 666. Since this was written about soon events, no other person can be found within this time scope whose name fits this requirement and description. Especially none can be found in the soon future of 96 AD.

* Nearly all scholars believe Revelation is inextricably linked to the Olivet Discourse. Since the best commentaries on the Olivet show it is speaking of the events leading up to AD 70, so must Revelation be speaking of the same events.

* The 6th king in Revelation 17 is the one that persecutes the saints. The Roman emperors as listed by Josephus and Tacitus are (1) Julius, (2) Augustus, (3) Tiberius, (4) Caligula, (5) Claudius, then (6) Nero.Nero was the first and only Roman Caesar of the Julian line to persecute Christians. Nero's death ended the Julian dynasty. The one ruling after him reigned only a little while.. . Galba, for 6 months. If the 6th king is indeed Nero, he would be the one that "now is" according to the prophecy, and this would date the writing before 68 AD when Nero supposedly committed suicide. Nero also persecuted Christians for 42 months as is stated in the prophecy.

The internal evidence of the book of Revelation demands the Neronic date. Robert Young was right: "The internal testimony is wholly in favor of the earlier date." As also do the majority of Published Scholars affirm.
 
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Bruce Leiter

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John indicates 4 times in Chapter 1 of Revelation that 'these things' he's discussing will start soon - and that the whole book is probably about the Roman persecution of the church.
1. "to show his servants what must soon take place"
2. " blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it" - how could the early church obey something that was addressed to Christians 2000 years later?
3. "because the time is near."
4. he SHARES in their tribulation! - John was already in jail because of Rome.
Basically, if Revelation is some sort of timetable that only the last generation will understand:-
  • what good has it been for the church for the last 2000 years?
  • Why can't anyone agree on this end-times timetable? ;-) Why is it so vague when Jesus and his death and resurrection and the epistles about him are mostly fairly clear?
  • Compare that to Amillennials that see it as a book that neatly describes the Roman persecution of the church, Roman temptation to Christians of money wealth and empire, and Roman appeal to trusting in State security rather than God's eternal security. In this case, Revelation has been a relevant warning and encouragement to all Christians in all societies for the last 2000 years. In fact, Christians I know of who have been persecuted in Muslim countries read it this way and laugh at the idea John is talking about a future suffering. They think it silly that John would write to his suffering generation and basically say "You think you've got it bad - wait till you see what happens in 2000 years!"
  • The return of Christ at the end isn't a timetable of events but gospel vision and encouragement - it's a sermon reminding us to keep going no matter what happens. It even describes the return of Jesus in judgement from 3 different points of view - repeating the same one magnificent event from 3 camera-views - none of which work in chronological order.
  • Phd in Ancient History, theologian and retired Sydney Anglican Bishop Dr Paul Barnett explains further in "Apocalypse Now and Then". https://www.amazon.com/Apocalypse-now-then-reading-Revelation/dp/0949108421
  • I recommend learning Amil theology as it will free modern Christians from the endless fretting over which credit card or computer chip might be the 'mark of the beast' and being diverted by endless speculation over geopolitical matters and how they fit into a 'Revelation timetable'. Amil will help rather focus them on living for Christ each day and being more compassionate in their local affairs and realistic in their politics.
 
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Bruce Leiter

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John indicates 4 times in Chapter 1 of Revelation that 'these things' he's discussing will start soon - and that the whole book is probably about the Roman persecution of the church.
1. "to show his servants what must soon take place"
2. " blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it" - how could the early church obey something that was addressed to Christians 2000 years later?
3. "because the time is near."
4. he SHARES in their tribulation! - John was already in jail because of Rome.
Basically, if Revelation is some sort of timetable that only the last generation will understand:-
  • what good has it been for the church for the last 2000 years?
  • Why can't anyone agree on this end-times timetable? ;-) Why is it so vague when Jesus and his death and resurrection and the epistles about him are mostly fairly clear?
  • Compare that to Amillennials that see it as a book that neatly describes the Roman persecution of the church, Roman temptation to Christians of money wealth and empire, and Roman appeal to trusting in State security rather than God's eternal security. In this case, Revelation has been a relevant warning and encouragement to all Christians in all societies for the last 2000 years. In fact, Christians I know of who have been persecuted in Muslim countries read it this way and laugh at the idea John is talking about a future suffering. They think it silly that John would write to his suffering generation and basically say "You think you've got it bad - wait till you see what happens in 2000 years!"
  • The return of Christ at the end isn't a timetable of events but gospel vision and encouragement - it's a sermon reminding us to keep going no matter what happens. It even describes the return of Jesus in judgement from 3 different points of view - repeating the same one magnificent event from 3 camera-views - none of which work in chronological order.
  • Phd in Ancient History, theologian and retired Sydney Anglican Bishop Dr Paul Barnett explains further in "Apocalypse Now and Then". https://www.amazon.com/Apocalypse-now-then-reading-Revelation/dp/0949108421
  • I recommend learning Amil theology as it will free modern Christians from the endless fretting over which credit card or computer chip might be the 'mark of the beast' and being diverted by endless speculation over geopolitical matters and how they fit into a 'Revelation timetable'. Amil will help rather focus them on living for Christ each day and being more compassionate in their local affairs and realistic in their politics.

I've been a pre-millennial believer, a pan-millennial (it'll all pan out!), and a nonmillennial (no future coming). Then, I learned in seminary the five major interpretations of the Book of Revelation. As a result, I compared those interpretations to the book. I arrived at the conclusion that the a-millennial interpretation is the best in considering the book as a whole, though it WILL all pan out!

The Book of Revelation is inspired apocalyptic literature. It is also prophecy that presents a series of visions that present the times between Jesus' first and second comings. It is a perfect example of the principle of Bible interpretation about prophecy that it has both direct and deeper meaning. You have presented the direct meaning, but each vision reveals more about the second coming--all in highly-symbolic form.

Come soon, Lord Jesus!
 
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mlepfitjw

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I believe today we live in an Age of Fulfillment. Where all the bible in itself has been fulfilled with God, and by and through the Lord Jesus Christ. I also believe that worrying about the end of the world, or waiting on the return of the Lord Jesus Christ doesn't help.

You can ask any Christian today if Jesus Christ is with them now, and most would say yes, but...

It's okay to believe how they desire to, there are people who read the bible and hold many different views and beliefs that not everyone will ever agree with however we all can agree on Christ Jesus, who God with us, died on the cross for the price of the sins of the whole world.

To try to change someones view on something it can have some effect or no effect, however when it comes down to it what matters is having faith on Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior, not just ours but the whole worlds savior, who paid for everyone sin before they are even born. Whom was raised again on the third day.
 
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Lost4words

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How does Peter calling Rome 'Babylon' fit in with the harlot in Rev. 17 who sits on seven hills and Babylon (Rome)? The church that less than two hundred and fifty years after the writing of Rev. whored itself back to the Roman Empire to work in tandem with the world of man and become a worldly power itself having rejected the Kingdom? Was that a past or future event?

harlot of Babylon is not Rome. Remember, Jerusalem sits on 7 hills too...;)
 
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keras

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The internal evidence of the book of Revelation demands the Neronic date. Robert Young was right: "The internal testimony is wholly in favor of the earlier date." As also do the majority of Published Scholars affirm.
The external evidence demands a 90-95 +/- AD date.
I have seen the [admittedly modern] marker that says John lived on Patmos then.

But to say Revelation happened in 66-70 AD is quite a stretch of the imagination.
Not to mention that it wasn't until 135 AD that Hadrian finally destroyed Jerusalem and dispersed the Jews.
Revelation describes events and things that [mostly] can be literally fulfilled, making them metaphors or spiritual, just turns them into meaningless fiction.

It seems that people who like to believe the prophesies are all over, maybe Jesus will Return, maybe He won't bother; they are not interested in being around for what must happen. They don't want what the Lord has Promised to His people, to those Christian people alive, who will have the great opportunity to prove their faith thru it all.
 
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eclipsenow

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There is a huge serious problem with that! John wrote the revelation in the early 90's AD! Also being on teh isle of Patmos He would not have had access to much information as to what was going on in the empire! Patmos was a prison and John was a prisoner of Rome in that mining prosion.
Well he obviously had people visiting to and fro, to deliver news and take his letter, or how do we have Revelation?

Also an amill eschatology relies extra ordinarily on an allegorical hermeneutic and interpreting the symbols found in REvelation with fantastical concepts.
The AMIL position does that? Wow - I would have said ALL futurist positions do that - especially those that want to take 'the stars falling' as nuclear bombs or the insects coming out of the ground as soldiers with advanced mech suits or whatever other modern wonders John 'saw' but 'couldn't understand' because he was living in such primitive times. Talk about being patronising to John! If anyone rips a biblical or historical symbol out of context and applies it willy-nilly to whatever they want to, it's the futurists!

No wonder they keep getting it wrong! They're taking biblical symbols - sometimes mixed in with a bit of local imagery and history - and just applying it to whatever narrative they want to now about Russia and America and whoever or whatever they want. John didn't even know about Russia and America! They were not even categories of his thought! The dimensions of the New Jerusalem coming down out of heaven are pretty much married to what they thought of as the world - the symbol being that God's city was going to marry with the whole known world.

As if John was writing about America or Russia or whatever else futurists want to plug in there.

If it is a vision to keep going- why repeat that after Jesus said so , so many times!
Because many thought Jesus, being Messiah, would have kicked out the Romans.
God's people - the church - we're about to be served up on a platter before Roman emperors.
It was going to get nasty! The early church's natural first question would be why, and then what does this mean, and how are we to react? Revelation answers these in a series of themes and then applications.

Also the "soon" of revelation is the greek word "en" which really doesn't mean quickly but at an or the appointed time designated.

The problem with AMill interpretation is that it takes the seals,trumpets and bowls and symbolizes the symbols. they just can't believe that all that mess will actually literally take place!
The problem with futurists is they contradict themselves all the time. They get all excited about us reading everything literally (which is the weirdest thing because it's obviously literary - strong apocalyptic metaphor - almost poetry - known to the Jews about 200BC to 200AD) and then try to excuse why Jesus isn't literally a 7 eyed 7 horned space-lamb!

Money and Empire???
The warning to us now, yes.

No it was to recant Jesus and accept Cesar to live!
The specific example back then, yes.

NOt to gain fame, fortune or noteriety!
If we get to those chapters, I'll unpack it.

In order for ths REvelation to "fit nicely" with roman persecution one has to play twister with Scripture and gerrymander words until they no longer meran what is written.
Like 'soon' and John sharing their tribulation and the time being near and that generation hearing and obeying his message?
It's just terrible how I'm twisting the clear phrases in the first Chapter of Revelation - the very chapter that tells us how to read the rest of the book!

REVELATION 1: SOON
How is the word SOON used in the rest of the New Testament?

The NIV renders Revelation 1:1 as:-
"The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place."

The Hendrickson Interlinear bible renders it in the side-bar text:
"A revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to Him to show His slaves things which musts occur quickly."

Then, under the word for word greek to english translation, it reads:
"Must occur with speed".

Bible hub has it as ἐν τάχει, en tachei or "in quickness"
Revelation 1:1 Interlinear: A revelation of Jesus Christ, that God gave to him, to shew to his servants what things it behoveth to come to pass quickly; and he did signify it, having sent through his messenger to his servant John,

If you look up tachei it is most definitely about speed of development and is rendered quickly, shortly, short time, soon, quickness, etc.
Greek Concordance: τάχει (tachei) -- 8 Occurrences

Luke 18:8
"I tell you, he will give justice to them speedily."

EG: Acts 12:7
"He struck Peter on the side and woke him up. “Quick, get up!” he said, and the chains fell off Peter’s wrists."


Acts 22:18
"and saw the Lord speaking to me. ‘Quick!’ he said. ‘Leave Jerusalem immediately, because the people here will not accept your testimony about me.’"

Acts 25:4
"4 Festus replied that Paul was being kept at Caesarea and that he himself intended to go there shortly."

Romans 16:20 is interesting, and could lend itself to a less immediate use of the word as instead of 'shortly' or 'soon' it could be the gospel sense of 'swiftly' which some commentators take as 'surely'. It's the one time in the New Testament where it does not literally mean SOON or QUICKLY.
"20 The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you."

1 Timothy 3:15
"14 I hope to come to you soon, but I am writing these things to you so that,"

Rev 22:6
6 And he said to me, “These words are trustworthy and true. And the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, has sent his angel to show his servants what must soon take place.”
This could be the 'soon' of either the imminent Roman persecution or the 'soon' of the 'swift' and sure gospel promise. As verse 6 goes back to the general subject of the book, it's not a conclusive proof of the judgement coming 'soon' and therefore not a conclusive proof that this tachei is frequently used as anything other than the literal meaning of SOON!

REVELATION 1: NEAR!
"3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near."
Near = engys
Revelation 1:3 Interlinear: Happy is he who is reading, and those hearing, the words of the prophecy, and keeping the things written in it -- for the time is nigh!
How is this used?
Again, pretty much both the English sense of nearness in time and nearness in place.
Greek Concordance: ἐγγὺς (engys) -- 30 Occurrences

REVELATION 1:3 KEEP = OBEY!
"blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it"
Surely this is the key?
John wants his original audience of 2000 years ago to hear and KEEP what is written in it. Keep for the future? Sorry - not allowed by Rev 14:12 which says "12 Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus."
It's the same word.
Greek Concordance: τηροῦντες (tērountes) -- 4 Occurrences

TRIBULATION
"I, John, your brother and partner in the tribulation and the kingdom and the patient endurance that are in Jesus"
The 'tribulation' has already started with the Romans jailing John on the island of Patmos. So what's the book about? The first chapter shares that it's about pretty much what John is sharing - a gospel message from Jesus, about Jesus, about what John is modelling in his situation - patient endurance that are in Jesus - whatever history throws at us.
 
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eclipsenow

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It seems that people who like to believe the prophesies are all over, maybe Jesus will Return, maybe He won't bother; they are not interested in being around for what must happen. They don't want what the Lord has Promised to His people, to those Christian people alive, who will have the great opportunity to prove their faith thru it all.
Nice - what if I turned it around and said people who are futurists don't care about the gospel and evangelism any more, they just want to put up their crazy-walls and somehow force Revelation to be talking about today.

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The Jews took Palestine a while back, so 1948's 'generation' is getting trickier and tricker to define on these timetables - but hey? It's just too exciting to make Revelation all about us - and even about me and my special understanding of it. We can't have it generalised like one of those boring Epistles that talks about boring stuff like the gospel and godliness and hard work and evangelism and perseverance in whatever life throws at us. I want it to be about me! My ideas! My particular insights on modern geopolitics. ME! I want to feel special, like Sarah Connor knowing the future, or John Connor having a special mission. That's much more exciting than Revelation just being a boring message to the poor Roman Christians getting sawn in half and fed to the lions. It's much more exciting than learning that the 1000 years is picture language for a 'really long time' between Jesus resurrection and his return. It's much more exciting than knowing there are 4 main themes explored during this 'millennium' - these Last Days that we've been in for 2000 years and counting! (Peter's pentecost sermon makes that clear.)

But hey, if you want to just discuss the theology and tone down the personal attacks, we could do that instead of attacking each other's motives. But if you want to get personal, I can raise instances here were futurists were so frenzied in their descriptions of their version of some coming Anti-Christ conspiracy that they told some gas-station attendant all about the Anti-Christ and (when I pushed them) admitted they forgot to talk about the gospel! I can remind people of the many failed prophecies here - that time someone started positively SHOUTING at us all to pay attention to their end-times-tables - because Obama was driving THE BEAST up to Jerusalem (the car is called THE BEAST!) - it was so obvious to this person - we all had to get ready because the Lord was going to return then! I mean, just forget that he warned many would turn up claiming this. Just forget he said not even he knew the hour or the day. People were BLIND if they didn't get this Presidential "BEAST CAR" message! But ho hum, it passed, another false prophecy - and I reminded the individual that if this were Old Testament times - the way they had been raving about their message being 'from God' someone might have heard them saying "the Lord says" and they risked getting executed for false prophecy! (Back in Old Testament times anyway.)

But hey, it's just an eschatology forum - we can't expect people to be accountable for their behaviour! :doh:
 
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keras

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Nice - what if I turned it around and said people who are futurists don't care about the gospel and evangelism any more, they just want to put up their crazy-walls and somehow force Revelation to be talking about today.
The reality is, EN; that the world is now at a critical level of just about everything. Population, resources. supply chains, etc, but the greatest threat is the ongoing confrontation of the Jews and the Islamic peoples in the Middle East region.
Even a conventional, localized war there would have severe repercussions worldwide. How likely, do you think; will an attack by Iran on Israel using nuke missiles, remain local?

It is this area that the Bible Prophets focus on. They describe things and events that can happen, but have not yet.
The Lord has warned us, why not try to comprehend what we are told in our Bibles about God's Plans for our future?
 
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eclipsenow

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why not try to comprehend what we are told in our Bibles about God's Plans for our future?

What does any of this have to do with John's generation?
How were they to keep John's commandments to them if a majority of the book is about geopolitics now?

Imagine I told you that in 2000 years there was going to be a territorial war between the Reds and the Greens on Mars. The Reds were going to use old fashioned nuclear bombs, but the Greens were going to use new multigenetic bioweapons.

Now obey this message!
 
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Neogaia777

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I see Revalation as being much like the mirror that Lady Galadriel spoke about and had Frodo look into in the first LOR's, Fellowship of the Ring movie, how'd she put it again, "the mirror shows many things, things that are, things that were, and some things, that have not yet come to pass" I think, etc...

Point being in general about many things, or history, in some cases, etc, that just keep on happening, and/or repeating themselves over and over again, etc, except for maybe only the last two chapters, etc, cause they are about what happens when Christ returns, and ends these vicious cycles, then rules and reigns to the end of this creation, and until and/or when this one is done away with and a whole new new one is made again, or exists again, etc, and just describes only just a little bit briefly after that, etc, or the start of that new creation and/or beginning again, etc, briefly, etc...

Oh, and did you notice how Revelation is really not even primarily a message to us, but is to certain Angels who already know, and very clearly understand what they mean, etc...?

Clear as crystal or clear glass to them, etc...

You could say it is "spoken" in their "language", etc...

Anyway, anyone notice that maybe?

And how it is calling certain Angels, and not men, (primarily), to "repent", etc...?

(Cause men are called to repent in the Gospel or in the Word of God as well) (But in Revelation specifically, it begins with messages to the "seven chief and primary Angels of the seven churches", etc)...

Anyway,

God Bless!
 
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eclipsenow

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"the mirror shows many things, things that are, things that were, and some things, that have not yet come to pass" I think, etc...
In a way - as long as we don't see any of it as specific prophecy, but as general gospel hope.

Point being in general about many things, or history, in some cases, etc, that just keep on happening, and/or repeating themselves over and over again,
Exactly! There are 3 parts - the first vision (letter to the churches), the next vision that describes the general flavour of these Last Days (2000 years and counting), and then the 3 different camera angles on Judgement Day.

As Bishop Paul Barnett explains, the 1000 years we are in (long period of time between Jesus resurrection and return) have the following cycles described all in parallel - along side each other - not to be read sequentially like some sort of future timeline.
HUMAN HISTORY: THE 1000 YEARS:-
Seven seals depicting TYRANNY (then back to the beginning to describe)...
Seven trumpets depicting CHAOS in nature (then back to the beginning to describe)...
Seven signs depicting PERSECUTION (then back to the beginning to describe)...
Seven plagues depicting DESTRUCTION.
These episodes are concurrent, not consecutive.

Wouldn't it be ironic if we were looking for how the Corona Virus pandemic fit into some future timeline and missed it entirely because we were looking for a timeline prediction rather than a thematic description? What if we missed the comfort of Revelation because we were trying to read it with the wrong glasses on?
https://www.amazon.com/Apocalypse-Now-Then-Revelation-Commentaries/dp/1875861416
 
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