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Featured 4 Reasons John was writing a gospel sermon about suffering under Rome

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by eclipsenow, Jul 23, 2020.

  1. eclipsenow

    eclipsenow God cares about his creation as well as us.

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    John indicates 4 times in Chapter 1 of Revelation that 'these things' he's discussing will start soon - and that the whole book is probably about the Roman persecution of the church.
    1. "to show his servants what must soon take place"
    2. " blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it" - how could the early church obey something that was addressed to Christians 2000 years later?
    3. "because the time is near."
    4. he SHARES in their tribulation! - John was already in jail because of Rome.
    Basically, if Revelation is some sort of timetable that only the last generation will understand:-
    • what good has it been for the church for the last 2000 years?
    • Why can't anyone agree on this end-times timetable? ;-) Why is it so vague when Jesus and his death and resurrection and the epistles about him are mostly fairly clear?
    • Compare that to Amillennials that see it as a book that neatly describes the Roman persecution of the church, Roman temptation to Christians of money wealth and empire, and Roman appeal to trusting in State security rather than God's eternal security. In this case, Revelation has been a relevant warning and encouragement to all Christians in all societies for the last 2000 years. In fact, Christians I know of who have been persecuted in Muslim countries read it this way and laugh at the idea John is talking about a future suffering. They think it silly that John would write to his suffering generation and basically say "You think you've got it bad - wait till you see what happens in 2000 years!"
    • The return of Christ at the end isn't a timetable of events but gospel vision and encouragement - it's a sermon reminding us to keep going no matter what happens. It even describes the return of Jesus in judgement from 3 different points of view - repeating the same one magnificent event from 3 camera-views - none of which work in chronological order.
    • Phd in Ancient History, theologian and retired Sydney Anglican Bishop Dr Paul Barnett explains further in "Apocalypse Now and Then". https://www.amazon.com/Apocalypse-now-then-reading-Revelation/dp/0949108421
    • I recommend learning Amil theology as it will free modern Christians from the endless fretting over which credit card or computer chip might be the 'mark of the beast' and being diverted by endless speculation over geopolitical matters and how they fit into a 'Revelation timetable'. Amil will help rather focus them on living for Christ each day and being more compassionate in their local affairs and realistic in their politics.
     
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  2. timothyu

    timothyu Well-Known Member

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    Do you think the big debate over whether to include Rev. in the canon was due in part to the belief it was a past event, or because it referenced a Kingdom that at the time of the finalisation of the canon, the church had already broadsided the Kingdom of God and realigned itself with the institutions of man, thus making it awkward with it's references of whoring itself to Babylon which Peter called Rome? Or was it included with the way the church was set up to govern rather than teach, so that the prospect of a second coming anytime should be left to the clergy and the fear it invoked would strengthen the churches hold over the masses?

    I forgot to add that referencing Rome did not end it there. Every empire including the growing world financial government today, operates on the same institutional principles as Rome once did. So any point in time would resemble the height of the Roman Empire. The end of days would just be when they finally got oppression right and were able to dominate all of mankind. You will find they got part way in Caesar's time but as of 2020 have reached their goal.
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2020
  3. Broken Fence

    Broken Fence Stand with Jesus. He is with you in the whirlwind. Supporter

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    I disagree if that is so who were the two witnesses. That layed dead for 3 days and rose again, and we're called up to heaven.

    Revelation 11
     
  4. eclipsenow

    eclipsenow God cares about his creation as well as us.

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    Read the book by Dr Paul Barnett.
    The problem is if you read Revelation too literally, how far do you go? Is Jesus the 7 eyed 7 horned space-lamb? That makes the Hale Bop comet cult look tame.

    Revelation is literary, not literal.
    It's a sermon for all ages, not a timetable of the end.
    It's about stuff that happened during John's life - with a gospel warning at the end.
    It's a book to comfort suffering Christians and warn prosperous ones - in all times and all ages.

    As far as I can tell, the Lord could return in 5 seconds or 50,000 years! We just don't know. The bible doesn't discuss when he's going to return - in fact - as a Theistic Evolutionist that thinks the Lord made us through the long 13 billion year process of evolution, the Lord is very patient about his plans. The way the Lord describes his kingdom growing and growing - I would be surprised if we had trillions of people - up in space O'Neil cylinders and on Mars - when he finally returns!
    rama.jpg
     
  5. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    The things of Revelation did start soon, up to the Fifth Seal. They literally occurred. The 'horsemen' are of course figurative, but their wars, famines and plagues surely have happened!
    The Sixth Seal is the next prophesied event to happen. As Jesus indicated, when He read Isaiah 61:1-2a; the Day of the Lords wrath still awaits fulfilment.
    It will change this messed up world and commence all the things so clearly prophesied to happen, leading up to the glorious Return of Jesus, to reign as King of the world for 1000 years.
    Great will be that time!

    AMillennism, is a crock, a direct contradiction of Revelation 20 and a seriously bad false teaching.
     
  6. eclipsenow

    eclipsenow God cares about his creation as well as us.

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    Nope - Rev 20 is just another camera angle of this age. It's a picture of the justice of God waiting to happen. Kim Riddlebarger's talks highlight the problems of a literal reading of Revelation 20 - it just doesn't make any sense at all.

    The return of the Lord is all or nothing: it's a new heavens and new earth, a new age, the mortal shall be swallowed up in the immortal, etc. It's not a bit here and a piece there and we'll all wait 1000 years while sharing the earth with mortals - that's just weird.
     
  7. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    Can you not see how God is working a set piece that He has Created?
    It has taken long ages [to us] to get it all to where we are now. We are the people alive today, who will see another pivotal change take place, as God's personal representative; Jesus, comes back again to the earth. This time as Conqueror and to reign as World Ruler.
    That Revelation does not make sense to you is unfortunate. It does for me.

    BTW, there is no time that mortals and immortals will live together. That notion is not Biblical.
     
  8. shilohsfoal

    shilohsfoal Jacks or better to open

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    You believe the stars falling from heaven and the sky ascending like a scroll rolled together is about the Romans?

    Do tell, when did the Romans enter the nuclear age?
     
  9. eclipsenow

    eclipsenow God cares about his creation as well as us.

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    Yeah, cause no one has got Revelation timetables wrong before! ;-)
    Everyone always thinks their special interpretation of the 'timetable' is all about them. :doh:

    But if it's a sermon to Christians being hurt under Rome - then it is a sermon to all Christians in all ages - just as 1 Corinthians was a letter to a specific time and place but instructs us all.

    Exactly, so the 'millennium' means what then?
     
  10. eclipsenow

    eclipsenow God cares about his creation as well as us.

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    I'm not sure why you're reading 'Stars falling from heaven' as nuclear - but you get that when people start reading Revelation as about us now rather than back then. You're using your interpretation of your assumptions about the book to justify your assumptions about the book! "See, this bit is about nukes now, so there fore it must be about now!"

    But what if the stars falling from heaven is just chaos in nature - which we see in things like the boxing day tsunami, like the pandemic, like so many other diseases and famines and droughts in Revelation? Isn't that - while not universally descriptive of the last days - generally descriptive? There will be wars and rumours of wars etc?

    Now, more on stars falling from heaven. Are you talking about Hiroshima and Nagasaki or nuclear bombs generally? Since H&N were both nuked, do they fit into your 'prophesies' or are they somehow missing from it? Would they mess with your timetable?

    You obviously don't take the clear verses in scripture over the more metaphorical. Basically, I don't see how the stars falling from heaven reference dismisses anything John said in the first chapter! Try again.
     
  11. shilohsfoal

    shilohsfoal Jacks or better to open

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    No, nuclear is the earthquake and the heavens departing as a scroll being rolled together which comes after the stars falling from heaven.

    But if you want to believe those are romans throwing rocks into the air, you can. roflol
     
  12. eclipsenow

    eclipsenow God cares about his creation as well as us.

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    In the Amillennial view, the whole book talks about the time between Jesus ascension into heaven and the gospel hope of his return.

    Just like any good sermon about suffering now, it discusses our hope then. John portrays their persecution under Rome in a bunch of historical and biblical metaphors, describes the age we've been living in (the last days since Peter's Pentecost sermon!) for 2000 years and counting with a bunch of biblical metaphors, and then gives us a sermon about looking forward to Christ's return. That hasn't changed. It's still the same message today - not a timetable - but a sermon. The new heavens and new earth are all a part of that great day.

    Nothing you've said explains why John said what he clearly said in the first chapter. It was going to start soon, the time was near, that HE shared in their suffering and that THEY were to hear and obey his message.

    How do you 'obey' a message about stuff going down in 2000 years?
     
  13. shilohsfoal

    shilohsfoal Jacks or better to open

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    Jesus said the stars of heaven falling to the earth would take place at his coming.
    Since you believe they fell during the first century, do you have a date you are claiming Christ came in the first century and raised the dead?

    Mark 13:25 KJV: And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
    Mark 13:26 KJV: And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

    Do you know of any witnesses who saw Christ coming in the clouds during the first century?

    Thank you for the list of names in advance.
     
  14. Lost4words

    Lost4words Jesus I Trust In You Supporter

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    Like i have always stated, Revelation is the most misinterpreted and misunderstood book in the Bible.

    Jesus did say these things are about to happen (paraphrasing).

    I believe in partial preterism. People take Revelation very much too literally.
     
  15. eclipsenow

    eclipsenow God cares about his creation as well as us.

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    Well, sometime it's picture language for the new heavens and new earth - sometimes it's picture language for great change - you'll also find it describing regime change in the Old Testament.
    BTW - our 'star' the sun is 333,333 times larger than the earth, so how that 'falls to the earth' literally is ... well, just impossible.


    I don't - not literally. Again, you're reading this as a timetable of events and just shifting the dates. Stop thinking of it as a literally prophetic timetable and start thinking of it as a theological sermon about certain subjects. Rather than things and dates, it's themes and lessons.

    The stars falling are probably both a bit of biblical imagery (Old Testament regime change, a bit like quoting 'shock and awe' now), and even a historical reference to the Vesuvius volcano cataclysm where it would have looked like stars falling to the earth. The point? Judgement will come on the tyrants that kill God's people. It's a foretaste of the great gospel ending of Judgement Day which we see described 3 times in the end of the book.

    I've answered your question.

    Now it's your turn.

    Again, nothing you've said explains why John said what he clearly said in the first chapter.

    It was going to start soon,
    the time was near,
    that HE shared in their 'tribulation' (check it out!),
    and that THEY were to hear and obey his message.

    How do you 'obey' a message about stuff going down in 2000 years?
     
  16. Lost4words

    Lost4words Jesus I Trust In You Supporter

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    100% agree.
     
  17. shilohsfoal

    shilohsfoal Jacks or better to open

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    For thousands of years a falling star has kept the same meaning.
    I guess you've never saw one.
    I've seen many in my lifetime.
    But I would say this has much to do with nation rising against nation, and kingdom against kingdom which Jesus was speaking of.

    As for Johns audience in the first Chapter.
    I'd say he is speaking to those who have an ear to hear.And if they cant hear, they don't make much of an audience, do they.Let them that overcometh be called by his new name.
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2020
  18. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Of course... The Same way, According to the prophets, The stars fell from heaven when the Medes Sacked Babylon (Isaiah 13)

    The Same way, According to the prophets, the Heavens receeded like a scroll at the fall of Edom (Isaiah 34)

    The Same way, According to the prophets, the World's mountains quaked and melted at the fall of Nineveh (Nahum 1)

    Since Scripture interprets scripture, Where is your scriptural instruction to Interpret language like Stars falling, sun darkening, heaven rolling up like a scroll, mountains melting, Locally and Figuratively when it is used by the Prophets to describe already fulfilled National Judgments in the OT, but suddenly apply a polar opposite "literal, universal" interpretation to the exact same language used by Jesus and the Apostles when it is found in the NT?

    I'll save you the time... You don't have ANY scriptural instruction to do so.
     
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  19. shilohsfoal

    shilohsfoal Jacks or better to open

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    The Medes have not destroyed Babylon yet but they are preparing to. Last I read they have 200,000 missiles pointed at Babylon.
    But as everyone knows, they don't attack Babylon till the euphrates river dries up.
     
  20. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Babylon was destroyed by the Medes in 539 BC. Just as Isaiah Prophesied it would be in Isaiah 13... one of the Myriad reasons we know Isaiah is a true prophet of God.

    You have no scriptural instruction to push Isaiah 13 into our future.

    This is NOT Future to us.

    Fall of Babylon - Wikipedia
     
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